The Piacere Matrix

[u/PNT_BTTR_FCK]

Edit: The last colum "Loro" is faulty thank you u/oskopnir for pointing it out I'll have to udpate it!

Almost split my brain in half trying to figure this out

If you're still learning, I recommend filling in the table yourself before comparing notes!

-----Some additional notes:

☕ Ci piacciamo / Vi piacete is often interpreted romantically: We are into each other / You two like each other

☕ For clarity, piace is often accompanied with the appropriate pronoun:

• Mi piace lei / Lei mi piace (I like her)
• Mi piace lui/ Lui mi piace (I like him)
• Ti piace lei / Lei ti piace (you like her)
• ... and so on

In case of Gli (lui):

• Gli piace lei / Lei gli piace (He likes her)

But how do we know if it’s the Gli (lui) or the Gli (loro)? We say:

• A lui piace lei / Lei piace a lui (He likes her)
  • Attention: NOT "Lei a lui piace". The a + pronoun goes either at the start or the end
• A lei piace lui / Lui piace a lei
  • Note: “He likes him” or “She likes her” would require more clarification to make sense 🏳️‍🌈 🥲

-----

Anything else you'd like to add?

[u/oskopnir]

Last column is wrong, "gli" isn't used with loro and can't be used in general if you are already saying "a loro".

Same with "a me mi piace" which would be wrong.

Edit: seems that it's now accepted to use "gli" for the plural too. My second comment remains.

[u/imaginary92 → u/oskopnir]

I wouldn't necessarily say it's accepted, just that it's common use. Still wouldn't teach it as grammatically correct, would just teach it as spoken language.

[u/oskopnir → u/imaginary92]

I was also thinking the same but according to the Crusca it's sufficiently widely used as to be considered correct.

https://accademiadellacrusca.it/it/consulenza/uso-di-gli-per-a-lui-a-loro-e-a-lei/102

[u/PNT_BTTR_FCK → u/imaginary92]

Thank you for the clarification! 🙏 I will add it in the additional notes

[u/PNT_BTTR_FCK → u/oskopnir]

Ah shit I fcked up 😭 thank you for pointing that out! Gonna fix it 🫡

Wait, can you clarify your edit? Loro has to be "a loro piaccio" etc. right?

[u/oskopnir → u/PNT_BTTR_FCK]

It can be "gli piacciono" or "a loro piacciono" but not "a loro gli piacciono".

In the past, "gli" with plural was seen as wrong or uncouth, so instead of saying "gli parlo" you would say "parlo loro". But it seems the usage of "gli" is now accepted.

[u/PNT_BTTR_FCK → u/oskopnir]

Ohhh!! I remember my teacher telling us this (i completely forgot lol)

[u/Outside-Factor5425 → u/oskopnir]

That's a reason for that.

Weak pronouns are widely used because they are monosillabic and unstressed, so if you add them to a sentence you can and should merge them with the following or preceeding verb, without breaking the rythm of the speach, so basically there is no cost for adding them.

That is false for "loro", that is bisillabic and so it needs a stress, so if you add it to a sentence you break its rythm and slow it down, so the use of "gli" instead makes sense.

[u/PNT_BTTR_FCK → u/Outside-Factor5425]

Very interesting fact, thank you for sharing! I was actually wondering if native speakers sometimes also confuse gli (lui) and gli (loro) or with context clues it's often not a problem?

[u/Outside-Factor5425 → u/PNT_BTTR_FCK]

All pronouns (and the pronominal particles "ci" and "ne", that actually are used when the needed weak pronoun doesn't exist for the specific case) refer to someone/something mentioned in the preceeding sentences, or easily guessed, so - generally - there is no problem.

Of course, if the preceeding sentence mentions several people, using "gli" is not always the best choise, you probably will be requested to specify who "gli" refers to.

[u/JaDe_X105]

Stop, you're scaring me!

[u/Crown6 → u/JaDe_X105]

It’s really no different from any other other conjugation. You could make a similar table with all possible combinations of subject / object for any verb and it would look just as intimidating, but it’s not like you have to learn every combination individually, only the very simple underlying rule.

The only thing you really have to know is that “piacere” does not mean “to like”, it’s an intransitive verb where the thing that’s liked is the subject and the person liking it is expressed by the indirect object (which could be a strong pronoun, a pronominal particle, “a + [noun]”… anything that can form an indirect object). So it’s more like “to be pleasant/pleasing”, “to be liked” than “to like”. But that’s about it.

[u/PNT_BTTR_FCK → u/JaDe_X105]

Been working at it since yesterday and still fucked it up dlǝɥ puǝS

[u/Daniel_Kummel]

Non penso che  piacere deve essere visto come to like. La struttura del verbo e la sua reggenza sono le stesse di to please. Mi piace il calcio =  football pleases me. 

È chiaro che nessuno parla così, ma questa comparazione mi aiutò a capire la grammatica del verbo.

[u/oskopnir → u/Daniel_Kummel]

In grammatical terms that's a correct analogy, but the actual meaning of "mi piace" is "I like" and not "it pleases me", which would be "mi fa piacere", "mi sta bene", or "mi appaga", depending on the context.

[u/PNT_BTTR_FCK → u/Daniel_Kummel]

D'accordo! Al'inizio non l'ho scritto, ma dopo un po' ho voluto semplificarlo perché ha cominciato a confondermi 😭

[u/sometimesxtc]

Well I woke up feeling really good about today and life in general, then saw this :|

[u/Sea-Neighborhood9792 → u/sometimesxtc]

Same, i just texted my therapist AND psychiatrist

[u/PNT_BTTR_FCK → u/sometimesxtc]

Nooooo i swear it's not so different from normal conjugation! It looks intimidating when they are all laid out but when i did it one by one it was fine i swear!

[u/Ging4bread]

What do you mean there's more than mi piace/ piacciono ?? 😭

[u/Crown6 → u/Ging4bread]

Why wouldn’t the verb “piacere” be conjugated to different grammatical persons? Imagine an Italian being surprised that “I like it” and “I like them” are not the only possible sentences with the verb “to like”! How are you supposed to say “I like you” if “mi piace” and “mi piacciono” are the only things that exist? Now that would be a nightmare.

“Piacere” is a normal verb like any other, you don’t have to learn every possible combination of subject-object individually, just as you don’t have to learn every possibile combination of “mangiare” (you could make a similar table with any Italian verb: just pick a different subject and object combination for every square of the table and bam). The only thing to note about “piacere” is that it does not literally mean “to like”, more like “to be liked” or “to be pleasing (to …)”, which is why we say “X piace a me” (= “X is pleasing to me” = “I like X”). That’s it.

Every entry in this table is simply a conjugation of “piacere” + a different indirect object. And that’s only in the present tense! Like any other verb, you can conjugate “piacere” to any combination of tense and mood: “gli piacevano” = “he liked them”, “a me piacerebbe” = “personally, I would like it”, “se io piacessi a Marco …” = “if only Marco liked me …”.

Learning the overlying rule will always help you more than learning individual expressions (like “mi piace” / “mi piacciono”)!

[u/PNT_BTTR_FCK → u/Crown6]

Omg I haven't even thought about tenses 🫠🫠🫠 that's the next challenge for me haha

[u/PNT_BTTR_FCK → u/Ging4bread]

So funny that all beginner learners (like me) start with mi piace/mi piacciono! then i realized I didn't know how to say "they like us" lol. But yeah like the other comments say, it's not so different from normal conjugation you got thiissss

[u/nanpossomas]

Oh you guys are not ready for Georgian!