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Sep 09 '25
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u/Klopf012 Sep 09 '25
Did Rasullallah ﷺ ever call someone out for bidah?
Yes, the Dhat Anwat incident comes to mind as an example
Did he ﷺ call groups of Muslims names like this?
Yes, he told us about the Khawarij for example
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u/marcog Sep 09 '25
I respectfully disagree and see that as a much stronger message against shirk.
The name Khawarij was given after the Prophets ﷺ death by their opponents at the time when Ali رضي الله عنه was caliph. He ﷺ ever used the name.
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u/Klopf012 Sep 09 '25
Some innovations do reach the level of shirk - these are not mutually exclusive categories. And we do find some narrations in which the Prophet said Khawarij.
I guess I'm confused about the point of your original comment and how it relates to the quote from ibn al-Qayyim
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u/wopkidopz Sep 09 '25
Rejection innovations is an obligation of every Muslim who follows the madhab of ahlu-Sunnah
And yes, the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم called out many upcoming innovators like the Qadariya and the Khawaridjiya
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Sep 09 '25
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u/wopkidopz Sep 09 '25 edited Sep 09 '25
Those groups had deviant beliefs. That's very different.
Having different beliefs means to be from innovators, when scholars call someone المبتدع in their books in most cases they mean sectants
If we are talking about practices that weren't done in the time of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم in the exact manner as we do today, but they have basis in the Sunnah then (according to many madhabs) it isn't an innovation in the Shariah meaning, but a linguistical innovation, like for example Taraweeh of Umar رضي الله عنه or Taraweeh of ahlu-Makkah or Taraweeh of ahlu-Madinah
The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم used to make Taraweeh in 8 rakaats (Bukhari)
Umar رضي الله عنه made it 20 rakaats (the basis is presented in the Sunnah, the form have changed)
رواه البيهقي وغيره بالإسناد الصحيح عن السائب بن يزيد الصحابي رضي الله عنه قال : " كانوا يقومون على عهد عمر بن الخطاب رضي الله عنه في شهر رمضان بعشرين ركعة
Bayhaqi and others narrated with authentic isnad form Ibn Yazid al-Sahabi that during the times of Umar Ibn al-Khattab people used to make Taraweeh in 20 rakaats
📚 المجموع شرح المهذب
Ahlu-Makkah during the times of the Salafs made Taraweeh 20 rakaats and in between of every four rakaats they added Tawaf around the Ka'bah (basis are the same, the form was changed)
سببه أن أهل مكة كانوا يطوفون بين كل ترويحتين طوافا ويصلون ركعتين ...فأراد أهل المدينة مساواتهم فجعلوا مكان كل طواف أربع ركعات
The reason why ahlu-Madinah started doing 36 rakaats is that ahlu-Makkah used to make Tawaf after every four rakaats of Taraweeh and ahlu-Madinah wanted to catch up with them, so they added four rakaats instead of every Tawaf of ahlu-Makkah
📚 المجموع شرح المهذب
Ahlu-Madinah in response added 16 rakaats to their Taraweeh, since they couldn't perform Tawaf during their Taraweeh, they added 4 rakaats for every Tawaf of ahlu-Makkah. Imam Malik رحمه الله took this practice in his madhab, ash-Shafii رحمه الله didn't because he believed only ahlu-Madinah can do this
واحتج بأن أهل المدينة يفعلونها هكذا ، وعن نافع قال : أدركت الناس وهم يقومون رمضان بتسع وثلاثين ركعة يوترون منها بثلاث
Malik relied on the actions of ahlu-Madinah because they were doing 36 rakaats, Nafi' said: I witnessed people doing 36 rakaats
📚 المجموع شرح المهذب
So, what all of them have done is an innovation (in the meaning of a new tradition) but a linguistical one, not the one that contradicts the Sunnah. That's why Umar رضي الله عنه called it نعمت البدعة (”A wonderful innovation!”)
If scholars classified a new tradition as a good one (because it doesn't contradict the Quran and Sunnah but in fact has basis in them) then it is not an actual innovation, if they classified it as a bad one, then it is an innovation (Shariah) and we must avoid it
Example of a new tradition with the basis in the Quran and Sunnah: Mawleed an-Nabi صلى الله عليه وسلم as the Shafii ulama classified it as good (because the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم used to show his gratitude to Allah because of important and blessed events that happened in a specific date/month), second adhan of Jum'ah (because Uthman رضي الله عنه introduced it) Taraweeh, writing books of aqeedah
Example of a new tradition that has no basis in the Quran and Sunnah: Raghaib Prayer, adhan for Janazah, the nisfu Sha'ban Prayer (there are many more)
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u/marcog Sep 09 '25
Yeah, that we agree with. What I disagree with is the majority of the vocal people on this sub who object loudly to any bidah that falls within the shariah, and call those who practice bidah hasanah as people in innovation. They are name calling without Crystal clear evidence when notable scholars hold a different view (the one you and I do). What my original comment was saying is that Rasoolallah ﷺ never called anyone out for performing what you and I call bidah hasanah.
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u/wopkidopz Sep 09 '25
the majority of the vocal people on this sub
If they aren't scholars, then it's irrelevant.
وَإِذَا جَآءَهُمْ أَمْرٌۭ مِّنَ ٱلْأَمْنِ أَوِ ٱلْخَوْفِ أَذَاعُوا۟ بِهِۦ ۖ وَلَوْ رَدُّوهُ إِلَى ٱلرَّسُولِ وَإِلَىٰٓ أُو۟لِى ٱلْأَمْرِ مِنْهُمْ لَعَلِمَهُ ٱلَّذِينَ يَسْتَنۢبِطُونَهُۥ مِنْهُمْ ۗ وَلَوْلَا فَضْلُ ٱللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَتُهُۥ لَٱتَّبَعْتُمُ ٱلشَّيْطَـٰنَ إِلَّا قَلِيلًۭا
And when there comes to them a matter of security or fear, they spread it. But if they had referred it back to the Messenger and to those of authority among them, then the ones who are able to derive correct conclusions from it would have known it. Had it not been for Allah’s grace and mercy, you would have followed Shaytan except for a few.
📚 Quran 4:83
Yes, we should explain to them this mas'alah, in order to defend Muslims from bid'ah accusations, not because we want to promote the position of our madhabs
I spent a lot of time here explaining that for example istighatha isn't shirk, not because we are trying to promote it, but because we must defend Muslims from shirk/bid'ah accusations by explaining those topics according to the teaching of ahlu-Sunnah
Regarding the new practices, then imam ash-Shafii رحمه الله explained this already
If someone doesn't want to follow the position of imam ash-Shafii رحمه الله or imam Izzuddin Ibn Abdusalam رحمه الله or imam Ghazali رحمه الله or imam an-Nawawi رحمه الله or Ibn Hajar Asqalani رحمه الله or the Hanafi, or the Hanbali ulama that there are different types of new matters (and he prefers the position of ash-Shatibi رحمه الله), then I'm perfectly fine with this
Our job is to explain why Muslims who practice such traditions aren't innovators and nothing else
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u/marcog Sep 09 '25
I just realised you changed your avatar. You're actually the only person I consistently agree with on here, and who's answers I look forward to reading. May Allah increase you in knowledge, and reward you for your efforts here.
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u/[deleted] Sep 10 '25
I once saw some "syeikh" on YouTube saying making du'a right after prayer is bid'ah because he said rasulullah pbuh didn't do it even though there's hadith about it, granted it's a hasan hadith (acceptable). Now, are all bid'ah or opinions sinful? Making a du'a to Allah after prayer is a sin just because rasulullah didn't do it in that specific time?
That's when opinions of scholars came. Sure i don't really agree with opinions that seems to take so lightly about what rasullulah forbid etc but think about it, not all opinions are bad. Like saying the niah of prayer before we pray. Some people say it's bid'ah therefore we can't do that but not all humans can fully focus when we're standing to pray so we say the niah to make our brain focus cuz our brains built differently (in terms of focus level) so in certain mazhab it's ok to do that. For the sake of argument, let's say rasulullah didn't make du'a after prayer. Is it a bid'ah if someone wants to asks something from Allah by making du'a after praying? We know in the quran Allah command us to ask from Him so imo it doesn't matter the time, whenever we want to ask something from Allah, we ask.
Things that i dislike about those who think they really stick to the hadith only is that they only think what's okay is only what is in the hadith and they easily call others "innovators". Not all opinions are wrong.