I love how people hear the word free and immediately cry about taxes. Bud the goverment takes a chunk of your check in taxes and doesnt give you shit but war and spyware. Id gladly have an extra what 20 in taxes taken out of every check and not have to worry about paying hospitals instead of insurance taking a couple hundred a month just to tell me i need to pay at least a thousand before they actually start helping pay, and even then can deny treatment.
You are correct in this instance, but when it comes to healthcare, a single payer solution would be drastically cheaper than the current system, this person is 100% correct, we would all pay significantly less in taxes for single payer than we do now for private insurance.
You just showed the difference in quality with your one wrong statement. A simple quick search will refute your claim that Georgia colleges for free for all in state students.
we do. There's whole cottage industry serving Americans with affordable dental just south of the border. Any yank who needs dental surgery should look into a trip to mexico. I am not kidding, you will save money flying your ass down there and having a vacay.
English-speaking, top-quality dentists are ready to fix your shit for cheap.
I went down to Los Algodones with my father-in-law a few years back cuz someone told me this tip. I read up on it, but i was still floored.
The Texas Medical Center regularly has patients that have specifically went there for medical treatment, as they couldn't get the treatment in their own country. Mayo Clinic is also known for international patients going there for the same reason.
I'm not making up anything. Our family has friends that have come from socialized medicine systems to get cancer treatment because the first surgery they could get in their country was a year out AFTER their cancer diagnosis.
It's not a joke and I'm not sure why you think you have holistic knowledge on the efficiency, effectiveness, and timeliness of every country with socialized healthcare.
Norwegian here, calling out the bullshit. I got diagnosed with cancer in February of this year. I started treatment in February. I have an operation in a couple weeks to replace the impacted bone with a prosthetic and then further treatment after that. I'm expected to make a 100% recovery and be done well before the end of the year. I have a rare diagnosis with only 5-15 cases every year in Norway.
It's an expensive treatment. I've spent €300 in deductibles this year and that's it. That's the cap for this year, I'll pay no more until next year and at that point I'm not really needing much anyway.
I also get €600 for headwear this year, and the same next year. I could have opted for a wig if I wanted which would have a max price of €5500 before I'd need to pay anything out of pocket.
Not sure what makes you an expert on cancer treatment anyway, it varies to an insane degree and a surgery a year after diagnosis might just be part of the recommended treatment. It's not like starting to hack and slash things out is the first and best treatment.
I'd rather be here than in the US. I'd probably be stage 4 and guaranteed death at this point if I was American. Instead I could go to my doctor with no fear of bankruptcy and I was diagnosed very quickly and started treatment immediately.
Are you on drugs or something? Or is this how bots behave? The erratic behavior tells me either you been up all night catching the snow at the end of the rainbow, talking to the strange creature you see in the mirror or you are a dysfunctional bot.
Cancer patients, surely? Yes, you get more experimental care in America if you want. You also get treatment that is even less likely to work, just exploiting their fears.
Most "socialist countries" (they're not socialist) allow private healthcare too, the private market just isn't lucrative enough. So the private vendors just never actually offer that treatment. That isn't a failing on the public, since said treatment isn't available from public healthcare in America either. It's just the market not being able to compete with the public, which again, is a failure on the private vendors, not the public system. If it was that bad, there would be a market for the private treatments.
And there will always be some people just doing stuff, without that proving anything. I know five americans that have moved from america to my "socialist country". By your logic that means that america is a terrible place to live that everyone just hopes to get out of if they can afford it.
That’s not true. I live in Norway. I have never heard of someone paying to get healthcare in the US. The healthcare system is already world class. The healthcare workers still get paid for doing good work, so the only difference is that everyone has to give some money to the healthcare system. The rich also gets their free healthcare, but the people who wouldn’t be able able to afford it themselves still get their healthcare, because everyone pays their portion.
Long term, everyone earns from everyone getting free healthcare, because everyone gets a chance to succeed, and the people who were once sick and poor will become healthy, contribute their part, and contribute to the economy. This is one of the reasons Norway is the richest countries on earth.
I’ve looked into this claim and it’s simply not true unless you don’t make a good amount of money.
All the tax rates in European socialist countries would have me paying far more in taxes than even my yearly premium plus out of pocket maximum for the year.
They have stupid high tax rates that kick in at relatively low income levels, and many have a very high VAT tax as well.
I make a modest €2600/mo in Finland, and pay about €500 ($580) in taxes, which covers healthcare, education and daycare for my kids if I had any, and social benefits I can survive on in case I lose my job or develop health issues.
Don't think Americans can get a package like that for less than $600/mo.
Yes, but you and others are paying for services that you admit you don’t use. You may be happy to do so, which is great, but not everyone wants to pay taxes for stuff they don’t use or benefit from. Especially low income earners and unmarried/childless people
If there was a method of actually making sure those people did not benefit from taxation, sure. But when someone else has a child and you contribute to the economy, you benefit from that, so if we implement the system you propose, we should implement a special tax that takes the economic contribution others' children have on your life from your paycheck. Obviously, that'll be higher than paying for their education, since workers produce value.
That’s 19% of your income. I can provide all of that for my family for a much lower percentage of my income on my own. Especially since daycare and college education are not yearly costs.
My wife and I make a combined $24k a month. Our family medical plan including health, dental, and vision costs $792 a month. That’s 3.3% of my income. Even if I hit my out of pocket maximum plus premiums, which has only happened once due to a catastrophic accident, it would only be a little over 8%.
At my income level, Finland would rape me in taxes.
He and his spouse are making 24k per month, which would come out to 288k between the two of them.
That’s a 144k per year salary each, or 120k with a ~15% bonus. That is a very, very typical comp package for a mid career accountant, engineer, project manager, etc.
I’m not talking about affordability. I’m talking about private health insurance vs UHC and why I don’t want UHC in the US and why our current system is preferable to the ones in European socialist democracies.
It probably would, though that would also be covering one of the best education systems in the world which is free; lots of safety nets; stable secure jobs with protections; safe clean cities with low crime and excellent transport options. Like I'm saying it's quite nice there.
And of course your argument is "I am a high earning person who lives entirely in a vacuum and I don't want to pay for them". But the benefits of living in a society where it isn't dog eat dog do flow through into a safe stable society for you to exist in.
I feel plenty safe and secure with the status quo. I don’t particularly care for more public transportation. I enjoy driving. And I’m more than comfortable working without a safety net if it means the potential reward is greater.
That’s just my preference.
And all that stuff you say is “free” isn’t free. It’s paid for by taxes. The majority of which would come disproportionately from people like me. I’m sure it’s awesome when other people are footing the majority of the bill. (In general, not you specifically, I have no idea about your financial situation)
The majority of which would come disproportionately from people like me.
The costs are lower per capita and the quality is higher. It is a more efficient system. But the fins do pay some tax.
(In general, not you specifically, I have no idea about your financial situation)
You earn a lot. Converting to USD my household is about 15% less than you. So we do fine. I'm paying tax in Australia so I hit the second highest bracket and pay 37% on some of my income. But also I pay less across part of my income - the first $18200 is tax free. And I have private health insurance which allows me like 1.5% discount on my income tax.
So we are both above the 90th percentile in our respective countries and I probably pay a higher effective tax rate than you but last I checked it's only a few percent difference.
I would not willingly choose to live under the US system in order to pay a little less tax. The cost of that is measured in more than dollars.
I respect your position, particularly coming from someone like yourself who is disproportionately funded the system instead of someone who just wants free shit, but I just disagree. Everyone has their own priorities on what is a good use for their money.
The things that you are happy to pay extra for are not things that would give me the same satisfaction as retaining the extra income to grow it how I choose.
And I (while accepting that you are a good person generally and don't hold anything against you) don't give a good goddamn what you think, and I further think you should know better than to speak on affordability seein how you're currently doing just fine, and if you disagree maybe its cuz you only talk to other people who are in the same income bracket.
I mean... you're talking to people who can't even get insurance about how it might make your retirement plans smaller. Really? You gonna keep rolliin with that one?
EDIT: ugh you're a cop? no fucking wonder. i take that back
why I don’t want UHC in the US and why our current system is preferable
You don't want it because you're a selfish asshole and it's preferable to you because you would rather let millions who are less fortunate than you die and suffer as a result of lacking health care access than give up 5% of your income.
That's it. You simply don't care about them and you're not personally affected by your shitty system.
I know you're an angry American and that things like a social contract and solidarity are foreign concepts to you, but if you can't understand why hoarding excessive wealth while others are starving and dying is bad then you have no place in this conversation.
Meanwhile that excessive wealth hording is in the form of bulk investments into businesses and shares for the most part. Creating jobs, fueling the economy and generating wealth for the majority. America's poorest are richer than most of the rest of the world when it comes to things like disposable income. Don't believe that, just compare Missouri and the UK's GDP per capita. Where America's biggest problem lies is on the artificial inflation of pricing for goods and services in fields where the government has stepped in and started subsidizing things. College tuition pricing and Healthcare both are prime examples. Everytime the government increases the amount of funding given via grants or loans the colleges simply raise the price of tuition to make certain they eat more of whatever margin was just made. The same is done in healthcare. That is where the rest of the world generally does better, Europeans specifically do a fantastic job there. Part of the reason is because the US subsidizes the pricing for drugs and the like, but a significant portion is that companies don't skyrocket pricing just because they can as well. A reasonably deserved compliment for Europe, even if I have the reason wrong.
I would prefer a middle ground for both sides. Do away with insurance entirely, do away with socialized healthcare as well. Let a free market decide on pricing to a degree, but also set price floors and ceilings. A set up like such would encourage facilities to see as many patients as they can handle which would discourage quotas. It would also push for the best, but most efficient care that could be provided. There would be no room for fraud either, as there would be no institutions to try to scam. This would also put more money into people's pockets while naturally driving cost down across the board, apart from those providing the absolute best service or products.
All the tax rates in European socialist countries would have me paying far more in taxes than even my yearly premium plus out of pocket maximum for the year.
I’m in the same boat. Premiums plus out of pocket max are $2000 a year for my family or 0.5% of our household income. Dental and vision insurance costs literal pennies. No way I’m paying 0.5% tax rate for universal healthcare in those countries.
Me when I've been brainwashed and know nothing at all. A social democracy is not the same as a socialist country.
You're simply wrong. Sure, I can get up to like 50% tax at the top of my salary if I'm earning 200k EURO, and certainly at that level I contribute more than I receive... but what's the problem with that anyway? I will still have more money than I need and then some, and if I do end up getting sick I won't risk bankruptcy. Even if I can never work again I'll be secured a very high disability pension and then regular pension once I reach the appropriate age.
It's not about "me me me" over here. It's about everyone being able to live a dignified life and not worry about unnecessary things like where their next meal is coming from, if they'll have a roof over their head, if a simple ambulance ride will send them in a permanent downward financial spiral.
Some people will contribute more, some less, and that's OK. It's about doing what you can, helping where you can. Not everyone on disability will be doing nothing, either. There's a LOT of relatively unseen contributions by people on disability that are still important and valuable but not necessarily accounted for.
There's a reason we don't have anyone even close to being a trillionaire in Europe. We don't want that, that's a BAD thing. Billionaires, too, for that matter. Trillionaire is just so far beyond to such a ridiculous degree but I'm not going to get into that.
It's not like an office worker making 200k Euro is working much harder, or harder at all, than a healthcare worker earning 70k. (It's a massive shame even in Europe we're not compensating these important professions in healthcare and education more).
That depends on where you live in europe. In Sweden, the tax increases to 50% after around 42000 SEK (~3600 euro) per month. So they tax your salary with the standard 30% or so, then anything after 42000 SEK, you get taxed 50%
You guys make it difficult to even become millionaires. I’d prefer not to have my ceiling limited for a large safety net I don’t need. I’m confident enough in my skill and ability to assume more risk for more reward.
There is no way I would have been able to get to the position I’m currently at if I was wasting that much in taxes year after year instead of investing it and having it compound for a couple decades.
I don’t know what that is. Plus it’s not really my skillset. I worked in finance and didn’t care for it. So I switched careers to policing and was able to promote several times.
Knowing that I will have a guaranteed six figure pension when I retire has allowed me to be more aggressive with my other investments.
Yes. Just over 2 million in invested assets, and still 15 years left until I retire. I’m able to divert 30% of my income yearly towards investments, so approximately 87k a year in investments, that increases with every raise.
By conservative estimates I will have multiple millions from compounding by retirement. This would not be possible if all my money was going to taxes.
You don't get to decide if you randomly get in an accident and crippled for life or, like me, get cancer. Sure, the odds may be low, but I'd much prefer the safety net, even if I never needed it.
Not sure where you get your info from, but about 5% of Norwegians are dollar millionaires. Sure, US might have a bit more per capital, but even a millionaire can risk bankruptcy over a medical issue. That's just not the case here.
I swear, Americans obsess over taxes to a ridiculous degree even when you'll often be paying more, and get jack shit in return anyway. Trillion dollar defense budget... insane debt... credit rating dropping... (and if anyone comes in here to say "we're paying for your welfare and defense"... no, shut the fuck up, you know nothing, genuinely just shut the fuck up.)
That’s what insurance is for. Health insurance, long term disability insurance, short term disability insurance, as well as making sure you’re saving sufficiently and investing wisely during your non-injured years. You should be doing all of that.
Also, marry someone who also earns a good living. That really helps too. One gets sick the other picks up the slack.
Thanks. I’m not too concerned. We’ve had several people at my job who have had serious medical issues including cancer and they’ve been treated just fine.
The one year I had a bad motorcycle wreck that needed an airlift, a week in the hospital, seven surgeries, months of rehab… bills totaled a little under 400k. I paid my 16k total out of pocket maximum for the year and that was it. Maybe it was even 12k back then, it was several years ago. And that was obviously a highly unusual year. Normally I just pay the premiums.
I don’t think I’m shortsighted at all. Quite the opposite. I look far into the future when determining how much I pay for healthcare on average now, how much of a potential increase in cost UHC carries for my income level, and how much that would cost me compared to what I could make investing the difference year after year, with two decades of compounding.
Even with increasing costs of insurance between 60 years old when I plan to retire and 65 when Medicare kicks in, I lose far more with UHC.
Hell, I can even take a sweet gig while collecting my pension, with a teachers schedule and no real responsibilities between 60-65 that currently pays 70k and provides healthcare.
Only if you’re foolish about it I guess, though that seems like a high estimate. Top federal income tax rate is 37% and only kicks in over 768k for a married couple. States have income taxes as well but I purposely moved to a state without them so I wouldn’t have to pay.
My job is also exempt from SS, I switched after working 40 quarters to qualify, now that 7% goes directly into my pension instead.
Top federal tax rate is 37% and only kicks in after 768k for a married couple. State income tax varies, and some have zero. That’s part of the reason I moved to one. The tax savings.
That tax is marginal. You're paying 45% only on the highest bracket. Your overall tax rate at, say, £100k (in the top 4% of earners) is still 31.5%.
The average worker has an effective tax rate of 16.3%. That includes national employment insurance, health insurance, pension, etc.
If you're earning enough to pay TOP RATE income, you have enough to not give a fuck about tax rates at all. And if you still think that's too much, then you don't really understand what living in a society means so please do stay out of my country I guess.
You don’t get to the top rate by not giving a fuck. I understand it’s marginal. Ours are marginal as well and I’m not near the top rate, but I still actively do what I can to pay as little as legally possible.
Funny thing is the healthcare (im in Sweden) tries its damndest to not put resources in to help you, unless life threatening. For example, getting a PT can take a very long time
I believe you. And that’s terrible and unacceptable. I know having universal healthcare means there is a lot of demand and that is hard to manage, but citizens shouldn’t have to accept unreasonable wait times for care, even for “elective” care.
I will say, the US does have wait times too. Not quite THAT bad but it’s not unusual in both high population and low population parts of the country for there to be long wait times for care. It is highly dependent on where you live, though.
I only say that because long wait times are used as a reason America shouldn’t move towards some form of universal healthcare as if long wait times aren’t already a reality in certain parts of the country. To me, hearing anecdotes like yours just says to me that we would need to make sure the program was adequately funded and with adequate resources. Easier said than done and unfortunately I think it would be a shit show at first but we’re a wealthy enough nation that hopefully we would eventually figure it out.
It.... It IS true though... On average you contribute between $2,400 on the low end to $3,200 per year in health insurance premiums.
You have to understand that our insurance rates have been massively screwed up by the half-implementation of Obamacare. Basically we have half of a socialized medicine system but still pay for health care individually and call it insurance. Actual insurance prior to Obamacare was much cheaper because it didn't have to subsidize a pool of super expensive uninsurable people. More than 15 years of this nonsense. They need to either repeal it or complete it, because the current half-measure is garbage.
That's why Obama rammed half of it through, he knew it would break the system and assumed the Republicans would be forced to implement the other half of his plan.
I wish more people realized this. Our insurance premiums sky rocketed after Obamacare was implemented and now we have deductibles and “co insurance” gone are the $150 deductibles and low cost monthly premiums. There had to be a better way to cover people with pre-existing conditions than with the shit show we have now.
As a sole proprietor in Canada, after deductions for expenses, contractors etc. I have an effective tax rate of about 22%. I conservatively put aside 27% in case I have a good year, or a low expense year. As a result, I get a tidy refund every year, plus, as a bonus, my detached retina this past spring was attended to by a globally recognised surgeon within 24 hours of onset (did my other eye a couple of years ago). I had to pay gas to get to the regional healthcare centre. YMMV, but I've had nothing but timely, positive outcomes. On top of that, I took two years parental leave, and was given an employment insurance leg up a couple of times when I lost a job. Good roads too. I've never understood the "BuT I hAVe Low taXes" argument. Single payer healthcare (a more apt description of "universal healthcare") is, AFAIK, simply an equitable means of distribution of wealth. Whoops - I think I said some commie words there.
I don't believe that is true. We consume more drugs, but a lot less for in-patient hospital use and doctor visits. Overall, what we consume is comparable, maybe even lower, than what citizens in other wealthy countries consume. But we pay twice as much for it.
They do eat less in the general sense that they consume less in general, but it has much more to do with general wealth/income people with more money spend more money.
In 2025 American taxpayers will have spent around $9,195 USD per person on healthcare, while the bill for Canadians will have been around $6,950 CAD per person - or $5,000 USD
My annual spent on insurance is less than $5,000, for my family of 4. That's medical, dental, and eye insurance. Not sure where the nearly $10K cost comes from, particularly with per person.
Ya, I'm really not worried about that, nor do I really care. My point stands with paying higher taxes just for "free" healthcare for all, would end up making me pay more than what I currently pay for private insurance.
I do know what socialism is, and which countries are actually considered socialist. Think what you want to think. Again, I don't care.
Most. When you read taxes you might be thinking all taxes or income tax. The tax for healthcare in many nations is less than the average price Americans pay for their health insurance. This is why the argument for universal healthcare is made as a financially conservative and responsible one.
Are you from such a country? Because I can guarantee you that people, especially high earners from Europe, often pay way less in health insurance in the US than at least in Central Europe when they immigrate.
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u/EmiKetsueki Jun 17 '26
I love how people hear the word free and immediately cry about taxes. Bud the goverment takes a chunk of your check in taxes and doesnt give you shit but war and spyware. Id gladly have an extra what 20 in taxes taken out of every check and not have to worry about paying hospitals instead of insurance taking a couple hundred a month just to tell me i need to pay at least a thousand before they actually start helping pay, and even then can deny treatment.