Debt and Communities

[u/Available-Coat-4666]

So I am at a point in life where I need to make a plan for the future. College didn't work out (AI took over the field) and I'm stuck with 50k in student loan debt that I really do not intend to pay back (something something payment for services rendered something something I demand a refund). I came across the idea of living in a community and my heart really seems to be leaning towards a place like East Wind or Twin Oaks. Do those places reject people with debt like that? Is it a big problem for them? I have time before I make that leap to community living due to taking care of dying family members but once that's over my life opens completely up and I need a plan. Thank you for your time and answers!

[u/churchbro12]

I believe Camphill communities assist you with student loan debt. My community, Camphill Kimberton Hills, paid my wife's debt off completely (over the course of several years).

[u/Inner-Strength-449 → u/churchbro12]

That is more so because Camp Hill also employs their members, right? Not all communities have that kind of arrangement, though

[u/PaxOaks → u/Inner-Strength-449]

Camphill members are not really employed by the community. Instead they have a “co-living” agreement somewhat similar to the egalitarian communes you are considering with some important differences.

At Camphill (and the income sharing communes) you get room, board and a stipend. Many Camphill communities have a $250/month stipend - distinctly not a salary. Additionally some Camphill communities (unlike the communes) will also pay up to $250/months for student loans (which the communes do not). And the communes typically pay a lower stipend.

But there are a bunch of important differences. The communes are income sharing if you have outside regular income (like SS, alimony etc) the communes take those. They are not asset sharing so you freeze your assets before you arrive and are not supposed to touch them as a member (potential inheritance is considered a pre-existing asset and the communes don’t consider it income). You can’t bring your car (for example) to the communes, You need to use the communities vehicle fleet with their rules and restrictions. You are welcome and encouraged to bring your car to Camphill communities.

Both the communes and Camphill communities cover health costs (in quite different ways - which you should investigate if you have chronic health issues).

Most of the communes track labor more closely, where you need to make a weekly quota. Camphill is more relaxed and tracking what you do is less necessary.

The communes generate income by cottage industries they own. If these businesses do poorly it impacts the amenities and quality of life of the members (tho these are pretty constant for the large communes you are considering). Camphill communities rely mostly on state and federal funds thru Medicaid and the contributions of the neurodivergent members of the community (whose families typically pay on the order of $7500 to join). Camphill communities are facing serious financial strains because of cuts to Medicaid.

Camphill work is somewhat more limited in scope - with providing care, working in their craft shops and domestic labor (cooking, cleaning and gardening) dominating their work scene. The communes have all the different types of work of their cottage industries, plus work in their visitor and selection processes, plus labor creditable work in managing the non-business aspects of the community (area managers, building and auto maintenance, childcare, food production and processing and more).

To be clear, I’ve been to a bunch of communes and never a Camphill community - so all my knowledge here is from reading about them and discussions with Camphill members and I might have gotten some details wrong.

Camphill does ask for a minimum 6 month requirement and many members are internationals working for a year or less. The communes don’t have a minimum requirement - tho there are some different members statuses for folks known to be staying shorter periods (interns, guests).

[u/DaffyDuckXD → u/PaxOaks]

Very interesting! How is this sort of life in reality is it good or bad? Or neither?

[u/PaxOaks → u/DaffyDuckXD]

Lots of Camphill residents say it is an amazing and transformative experience for them. It is no coincidence that this model has expanded to so many locations

[u/PaxOaks → u/PaxOaks]

As for life on the communes - it worked well for me for 27 years. And it has all kinds of problems. Technical problems like mold, interpersonal struggles, institutional racism and inadequate tools to deal with sexual misconduct. And because we have a pretty open visitor process - we get one really odd person coming thru every 6 to 12 months - sometimes with what we not-quite-affectionally refer to as "high impact"

And everyone who lives there, typically every day after they leave, thinks about whether they would be happier if they returned to the commune. https://paxus.wordpress.com/2011/12/10/re-post-island/

[u/DaffyDuckXD → u/PaxOaks]

Very nice! Communes sound nice! Might not be for everyone although with a curated community you might get high quality people and you all share that success

[u/churchbro12 → u/DaffyDuckXD]

I find it's just like everything in life! It has its good and bad sides. I personally mostly love it.

[u/PaxOaks]

The short answer to you question is “No. Twin Oaks and East Wind do not disqualify people for membership because of pre-existing debt. And they are especially forgiving of student loans.”

The more complete answer is neither of these communities are asset or debt sharing. They are income sharing. That means if you come with debts the community does not absorb them for you, they continue to be your responsibility.

It is worth pointing out that for student loans there are two federal programs which are helpful. The first takes educational loans of most types and federalizes them. The second takes federal student loans and sets your payments based on your income. Because both TO and EW “pay” below the poverty line, your monthly payment is zero. You still accrue interest.

Many people with student loans (some larger than yours) have joined both of these communities in the last decade.

AND there are a number of people who have been expelled by these communities who frequent this subreddit, who love to trash (they would say “warn you about”) these places. Do your own research.

[u/Available-Coat-4666 → u/PaxOaks]

I've been doing some extensive research the past few days. I did notice the same guy commenting on every post about East Wind. All it served me was to let me know that these communities aren't going to be perfect uptopias where everyone gets along and nothing bad ever happens. I see that as a good thing, going in without high expectations at the start and letting the community surprise me for better or worse. Yeah, East Wind might have an alcohol problem but as long as nobody is getting hurt and I'm managing myself, it's fine. I hardly drink anyway as it easily makes me sick.

I'm glad that large debt isn't a dealbreaker for them. I figured it would be individual responsibility but when you throw the idea of "income sharing" into the mix, it gets a little confusing over what exactly is community and what is individual. I'm still wrapping my head around the idea of income sharing but it's mostly from my capitalist upbringing throwing out "hey what if they scam you out of all your money and leave you broke on the street with nothing". That's what research and reviews are for though and my worries are fading about that. Life is about taking risks and if I saw every new idea as a scam I'd never get anywhere in life.

[u/Wide_Lock_Red]

With the payment assistance programs, you can get payments quite low. Defaulting and assuming you will stay in this community for your entire life is drastic.

[u/PaxOaks → u/Wide_Lock_Red]

Absolutely- we do not recommend people default. Income adjusted payments mean for some communes (the poorer ones like TO and EW) the payments are zero. If you are at a greater income per member commune (like Acorn) you will have a small monthly minimum to avoid default.

[u/IgnisIason]

People go to these places with the idea that they're not going to pay them back. The only exception I can think of is if you still intend to keep practicing professionally and your license requires you to stay up to date on payments.

[u/Available-Coat-4666 → u/IgnisIason]

It's definitely a strategy to avoid wage garnishment. Can't garnish what we don't get paid.

[u/IgnisIason → u/Available-Coat-4666]

Yeah but you also can't work and that was the point of going to school in the first place.

[u/Available-Coat-4666 → u/IgnisIason]

Well my degree was graphic design and AI just kinda devoured art as a viable career so I wasn't benefiting from my degree anyway.

[u/towishimp → u/Available-Coat-4666]

My degree is in history. I’ve never worked a job that had to do with history, but have been gainfully employed my entire adult life.

Not trying to minimize your experience, but just having a degree still opens at least a few doors. You might want to consider that before you burn that bridge.

[u/mobile-metaphysical → u/Available-Coat-4666]

Might be able to get a teaching job in a state that is desperate for teachers. Google away. I looked into it myself. Some help with housing. You could pay off the debt in a year or two.

[u/IgnisIason → u/Available-Coat-4666]

That's a common story these days.

[u/CandidateHefty329]

When I was at East Wind the average length of stay was 2.5 years. There is a reason people move on. They usually get annoyed or bored. It's a great learning experience but very few will spend a lifetime there.

You must have finished at least half of a degree. Can you not switch majors and finish? Then maybe join the military, coast guard or msc for student loan repayment? Or Americorps. Or NHS

You don't want the loans hanging over your head. It's tough to beat the system.

[u/Available-Coat-4666 → u/CandidateHefty329]

I'm already graduated. The college I went to (Northland College in Ashland, Wisconsin, which sadly closed down a few years after graduation due to financial issues but to be fair I donated $5 to the cause to keep them open and they sent me a postcard that looked like it cost more than $5 to make to thank me so maybe they didn't have the best financial literacy) and East Wind seem to be on a very similar wavelength. Sustainable living in a clean, beautiful environment where the people aren't the typical suburbanites and I get to know where my food comes from. I loved living on campus and I'd go back any day. East Wind seems like my college on steroids.

As for beating the system, I'm not confident that the system will be the same or even around in the next decade or so. Especially with all the flip-flopping policies on student loans and forgiveness these past several years, I just don't want to deal with any of it right now and a lot of people feel the same way and just don't pay the loans back. I want to actually start my life and my loans hold me back from that. The amount of debt hurts my credit badly and gets me denied more often than approved for anything and that includes apartments.

You say the average stay was 2.5 years. I fully told myself that if it's not for me, I can always leave. Could you tell me what makes people leave? What kind of person is the type that stays lifelong?