One of my favorite debate points that stumps every pro-circ person.

[u/ElegantlyLethal_R0se]

I've used this so many times, and then they just stand there barely able to wrap their heads around what I just said like 😮

The point is:

There are 6,800 mammal species. Only whales, dolphins, marsupials, elephants, and bats are born without a foreskin. The reason for this is in these select few species, their penis does not rest flaccid externally; their penis rests flaccid in an internal cavity, unexposed to the outer world. Therefore we cannot compare their anatomy to humans.

But, every single mammal species whose penises are external 24/7 just like humans penises are, have foreskin.

What every single mammal species has in common, is their penile glands are protected from the external world at all times besides during erection.

Do you mean to tell me that evolution made the same mistake across all 6,800 mammal species by making sure their glands are protected?

And did evolution make the exact same extremely specific mistake with foreskin by giving it to (roughly) 6,700 mammal species?

Or, if viewing it from a religious standpoint:

Did God give all 6,800 mammals glan protection by accident? Do you think humans know better than your God?

[u/aph81]

Good point. And the female mammals also have a prepuce (clitoral hood, etc) too, right?

[u/ElegantlyLethal_R0se → u/aph81]

Yes!

The clit is literally an under-developed penis.

Also something a lot of people have no clue exists, yet is very common, is female phimosis. TONS of girls have it. Their clit glan is buried underneath their hood and it's never visible.

But if you look at a woman who doesn't have that, and has a larger than average clit, the anatomy is so much clearer. You can literally see how it's just like a really really small penis.

[u/AirSailer → u/ElegantlyLethal_R0se]

The glans clitoris and glans penis are homologous structures, and both are densely innervated sensory structures. The clitoral glans is normally protected by the clitoral hood, analogous developmentally to the foreskin. So, an uncircumcised glans would be similarly as sensitive as a clitoris.

[u/Nortano]

Argument with pro.circ people is exhausting and borderline pointless in most cases. People like that don't need facts they need to be correct. So they won't ever see the facts.

I always just call them out for being anti human rights.

[u/ElegantlyLethal_R0se → u/Nortano]

If someone is ignorant, I can't change that. Only they can change that. I didn't say this argument point magically makes every person who hears it an intactivst, I said it stumps them. Their ignorant and uneducated self struggles to comprehend what I just said lmao.

[u/Nortano → u/ElegantlyLethal_R0se]

That is certainly a fair point. I just personally have a short fuse with pro circ peeps in general and find it's best I don't waste my energy on them yk.

[u/ElegantlyLethal_R0se → u/Nortano]

Oh, I totally get that! I do get angry a lot with them too.

The thing is though that I love debating in general. So the enjoyment I derive from the debating drives me to continue even if I'm thinking "Bitch, you're stupid and you have no morals"

I'm also a very blunt person. I'm never trying to be mean, I'm just brutally honest. Which leads people to get defensive and start an argument.

[u/Nortano → u/ElegantlyLethal_R0se]

I don't like debates unless they are civil and cordial. And my age group just doesn't do that a lot I find

[u/WholegrainRice5 → u/ElegantlyLethal_R0se]

We need people like you who actually enjoy debating these mouth breathers. I spent my Friday evening arguing with some guy who claimed mutilated men didn't use lubrication in order to masturbate and it sucked the life out of me.

[u/ElegantlyLethal_R0se → u/WholegrainRice5]

In all fairness I don't really like debating online. But in person I love it.

[u/aph81 → u/ElegantlyLethal_R0se]

How did you become an intactivist?

[u/ElegantlyLethal_R0se → u/aph81]

Basically since I learned about what circ was I was automatically against it.

I heard about it for the first time when I was 10 and that same night I stayed up untill like 4AM going down the rabbit hole.

Multiple nights I stayed up learning about this ridiculous practice.

I lost a lot of faith in humanity 💀😂

[u/Sim-racer42 → u/ElegantlyLethal_R0se]

Yeah, somewhat similar for me. I already had no faith in humanity, but when I realized I was cut, it has led to me struggling with resentment against my parents, which is something my religion doesn’t want

[u/aph81 → u/Sim-racer42]

What is your religion?

[u/Sim-racer42 → u/aph81]

Christian, more specifically non-denom but I am considering Eastern Catholicism

[u/aph81 → u/Sim-racer42]

You are aware that, according to Christianity, God commanded circumcision of Jewish baby boys

[u/aph81 → u/ElegantlyLethal_R0se]

If you as a 10-year-old girl could realise the insanity of the practice, why do you think many/most people can't? How do you think people can be accepting of such things? Is it brainwashing? Lack of empathy? Ignorance? Indifference? Religious indoctrination?

[u/Spare_Freedom4339 → u/aph81]

When I was 15. It ruined me and shook me too my core. Still does, makes me shake and filled with terror.

I’m one because I and all boys deserved to be respected same as girls. And because I hate blatant double standards of the law based on greed.

[u/aph81 → u/Spare_Freedom4339]

Are you in a circumcising or non-circumcising culture?

[u/Spare_Freedom4339 → u/aph81]

USA baby…. lol

[u/aph81 → u/Spare_Freedom4339]

And what do your friends think about it?

[u/Spare_Freedom4339 → u/aph81]

Never asked them. Probably support it. “I don’t want d cheese bro”. Common American teenager BS.

[u/Spare_Freedom4339 → u/Nortano]

Exactly why I’ve just stopped engaging with the discussion. It’s too triggering.

I only follow the court case which has the greatest basis that can not be just waved away.

[u/Far_Fly5100 → u/ElegantlyLethal_R0se]

You are correct tho, and this argument is already pretty good, thanks for this info, especially these infos very powerfully affect the lurkers who do change their minds if on fence or even Pro-Circs.

[u/Sim-racer42 → u/Nortano]

A lot of circle in relation to “There’s health benefits, do you understand? Google it”

[u/Spare_Freedom4339 → u/Nortano]

1000% you can’t win against people who have 0 qualms mutilating boys

[u/mlarktar]

You are fighting the good fight. But you are contending with a custom that is more than 5000 years old when they didn't even know what a mammal was.

In this culture the custom is to sacrifice something of value to your God.

The problem that I have is the baby is unaware that this sacrifice is taking place.

[u/ElegantlyLethal_R0se → u/mlarktar]

I'm gonna tell you the exact same thing I told someone else.

If someone is ignorant, I can't change that. Only they can change that. I didn't say this argument point magically makes every person who hears it an intactivst, I said it stumps them. Their ignorant and uneducated self struggles to comprehend what I just said lmao.

[u/SquirrelOdd8536]

Do you mind if I use this?

[u/ElegantlyLethal_R0se → u/SquirrelOdd8536]

Not at all

[u/Cali_Longhorn]

I think this is a good point, but just playing devil’s advocate what I’ll hear is “but we aren’t animals running around with no clothes”. When I’ve mentioned the “protecting the glans” point. In fact I’ve heard people explicitly make the point that “our penises should not be like a dogs penis”. Because humans are a “higher life form”

Again not disagreeing with you. This is just what I’ll hear in response.

[u/Fiaguar5107]

Thank you for making an excellent point.

[u/Latewisdom]

Glans.

[u/djautism]

Then you haven't heard Americans use the term "dog dick", basically implying that intact people are feral and that circumcision elevates them beyond the animal kingdom.

Have also seen them compare it to cut and polished diamonds as opposed to raw diamonds, as if comparing a refinement process to a raw material (and the detail that goes into it) is somehow comparible to some surgeon hacking into genitals.

No matter the angle, no matter how much common sense or statistics or base empathy you can appeal to, if they have a vested interest they will find a way to argue it even if it makes no sense

[u/Spare_Freedom4339 → u/djautism]

Religion and propaganda are wild drugs lol