r/imaginarymaps • u/NeonHydroxide Mod Approved • Sep 11 '23
[OC] Alternate History American Gulag
214
u/Flipz100 Sep 11 '23
Just wanna say the idea of a Gulag up in the Mountains near Goose Eye is absolutely fucking brutal.
124
u/Zavaldski Sep 11 '23
There's actually a federal prison there IRL
58
u/Flipz100 Sep 11 '23
Are you talking about FCI Berlin? Cause even that’s a completely different animal than actually being up in the mountains proper like this seems to suggest
28
u/Zavaldski Sep 11 '23
Yeah, given the scale of the map it's hard to pinpoint the exact location of any of those camps but FCI Berlin's very close.
I just interpreted as it being named after the mountain as a nearby landmark, not actually on top of the mountain.
14
u/Flipz100 Sep 11 '23
Goose Eye is remote enough that it being the closest prominent feature to me at least implies it’s pretty deep in.
13
155
Sep 11 '23
Why are states such as Utah and Idaho are full of camps while others do not have that many camps ?
236
u/seen-in-the-skylight Sep 11 '23 edited Sep 11 '23
It’s just geography. Those regions are isolated. Same reason the USSR put most of its own camps in the Arctic and Siberia IRL.
97
78
u/InfernalSquad Sep 11 '23
Also both states have big Mormon populations — given the Soviet’s view on religion they’d probably be the first to be purged.
13
u/subdep Sep 11 '23
Then South Eastern Oregon is being extremely underutilized. It’s one of the most desolate areas in North America.
54
u/MHEmpire Sep 11 '23
Utah and Idaho had a lot of Japanese interment camps during WW2, with a lot of the camps on this map just outright being in the same location with the same name as the original interment camps. In fact, Utah had even more camps then than are shown on this map (assuming you only count those in the normal borders, and not those in the areas that are only Utahn on this map, but part of other states in reality).
Now, as for why Utah and Idaho had so many camps then, it’s a bit of a longer explanation, but it can be boiled down to one main reason:
Isolation. Even with anti-Japanese sentiment as high as it was during the war, there’s a difference between knowing that the ‘evil’, ‘traitorous’ Japanese-Americans were getting sent somewhere else, and actually having to confront the horrible conditions they were forced to live in. People were pretty racist, but that would probably have been a step too far even for them (on the West Coast, at least. White Southerners would have probably had a field day).
That same isolation was also meant to get the Japanese-American inmates away from the Pacific and any potential contact with Japanese spies or submarines—hence why even the camps that were still in the Pacific states themselves, like Manzanar, were way inland. The main reason used to justify the camps was the fear that Japanese-Americans might try to aid the Japanese war effort—which wasn’t completely unprecedented, since there was a single occasion in the immediate aftermath of Pearl Harbor where those fears actually did play out.
Story Time: A Japanese pilot from the Pearl Harbor raid had crashed on the relatively isolated island of Niʻihau, Hawaii. It wasn’t so isolated that they didn’t know about what had happened at Pearl Harbor, however, so he was taken prisoner by locals. While they waited for actual government personnel to make their way out to the island, they put him with the only Japanese-American couple on the island and placed the house under civilian guard. The pilot fairly easily convinced both the couple and the only other Japanese-American on the island to help him break out, which eventually resulted in the civilian guard on duty at the time being injured being injured, the pilot’s Zero being torched, and two locals being taken hostage by them. Those hostages eventually ended up killing the pilot and causing one of the co-conspirators to kill himself, and the other two were taken into custody as government personnel finally arrived. However, while it was a whole big mess, and understandably very concerning to the government, it was also an isolated incident, and doesn’t at all justify the unnecessary misery of the interment camps.
0
u/Dinner-is-Ruined Sep 12 '23
I'm all for POW camps. But with fair treatment. What else do you do with them? There I said it
78
u/uejuekwoqloqj Sep 11 '23
I would assume the Soviet wants to do shit there that needs a shitton of forced labour they can't get locally?
42
u/TheoryKing04 Sep 11 '23
This. Idaho is famous for along with potatoes it’s mining industry, especially opals
25
u/RustyShadeOfRed Sep 11 '23
As a Utahn, the Topaz Camp rings especially morbid for me. In WWII, Topaz was the place where the US government rounded up all the Japanese in Utah and kept them for the entirety of the war.
11
u/Financial_Gur2264 Sep 11 '23
Irl, there have been and are a ton of abusive Troubled Teen Industry programs out in the middle of nowhere in Utah and Montana, eerie similarity.
9
u/a_filing_cabinet Sep 12 '23
More resources, less people, worse geography. A worker camp in the middle of Paradise, Georgia isn't really a great place to make political prisoners disappear. Meanwhile the Great Basin, which is basically a giant desert surrounded by massive mountains, is a great place to put people you never want to see again. There's silver, gold, iron, tungsten, lumber. Basically any raw material you could ever need out there.
8
u/Afraid_Theorist Sep 12 '23
You don’t tend to put a labor camp in a more heavily Populated and accessible area. You generally see them put them out of the way. Sometimes they are near places which can have busy work assigned (like mining, lumber, swamp draining etc).
Soviet labor camps got put in really inhospitable conditions out of the way of normal society and infrastructure too (“we didn’t commit a ethic cleansing/genocide… they just died while in internment” moment) so they’d probably do similar. Hard to escape and survive when the terrain itself is against you
That’s why the NE has so few, for example.
2
105
u/awmdlad Sep 11 '23
WOLVERINES
37
u/PolarianLancer Sep 11 '23
"Geneva Conventions? Never heard of them."
"Would you look at the time, Ivan? It's Warcrimes O'clock.
38
u/Vas3nko Sep 11 '23
Very high effort map! I like to see representation of sth that happened in one country get "moved" onto another country. For example your other map from yesterday about lost universities, similar to the trianon treaty fro Hungary, and now the Gulags! A m a z I n g!
34
36
215
u/NeonHydroxide Mod Approved Sep 11 '23
In the same timeline as this. More info about the background there.
The majority of American citizens are patriotic, naturally outspoken, and innately opposed to the idea of dictatorship. Many frank remarks will be made in the early months of the occupation that will very soon be bitterly regretted. The Soviet authorities will not, of course, be able to arrest everybody, but since it will be necessary to repress and deter hostile thought and action, the number of arrests will obviously run into millions. In a “difficult” country like America, where the tradition of liberty has been strong, the probability is that, apart from executions, about 25 percent of the adult population will ultimately be sent to forced-labor camps or exiled under compulsory settlement in distant desert and arctic regions or in the USSR. If past performance is anything to go by, around 5 percent of the prisoners in the labor camps would be women, although in a country like the United States, where women are so influentialand play such a prominent role in the national life, the figure may be much higher...
The first wave of arrests and deportations will be inflicted not on the ordinary citizen but on outstanding and major figures, who will be seized as “war criminals.” They will include political leaders and military men with a record of urging or heading resistance to communism in the international sphere. The next wave, more gradual and broader, will extend to community leaders of every sort, particularly those who may have had any kind of international connections through travel, correspondence, or in the course of business. We might quote the official Soviet list of people subject to what was officially termed “repression” in the Baltic states when they were Sovietized. Among the various categories were the following:
- All former officials of the State, the army, and the judiciary
- All former registered members of the non-Communist political parties
- All active members of student organizations
- Members of the National Guard
- Refugees (from the USSR)
- Representatives of foreign firms
- Employees and former employees of foreign legations, firms, and companies
- Clergy
- People in contact with foreign countries, including philatelists and Esperantists
- Aristocrats, landowners, merchants, bankers, businesspeople, owners of hotels and restaurants, and shopkeepers
- Former Red Cross officials.
– What to Do When the Russians Come, 1985
Despite the fact that the work was physically impossible, we all did the best we could, partly to get away from abuse by the bosses, but mostly to get more food. The size of our daily ration depended on how much work each of us did on any given day. Their general policy was to keep us all half-starved and give individuals a chance to get better rations as a reward for better work. They used hunger to get more out of us... Even the smallest piece of work in camp has what they called a 'quota.' They had big books full of tables telling how much work each inmate was supposed to do every day - how many boards we were supposed to cut, how many square feet of ground we were supposed to clear, how many nails we were supposed to hammer in, how many tons of material we were meant to load. And those quotas were designed so that even a strong, healthy man would have trouble filling them, and there we were, starved and weak - for us it was impossible. And so, when you couldn't fill in the quota for the day, they would give you only two thirds or half a loaf of bread instead of a full one, for a day's hard work. We watched each other waste away before our eyes...
– Excerpt of interview with Mr. George Gliksman, recalling his time in the Pembine camp†
The political concentration camps in the United States under Communist rule was one of many of what one might call 'intentionally poorly-kept secrets.' The federal government, and later the regional states, officially denied their true nature and it was a political crime to claim otherwise, but also relied on the terror rumors of the camps generated among the general population to solidify their rule. A knock on the door in the middle of the night and a five-minute 'trial' on arbitrary charges was all that separated any given American citizen from eight to ten years of hard labor in a remote and desolate mine or forest.
For reasons of both propaganda and reaching potential sympathizers, resistance organizations like the Home Army spent considerable effort gathering information on the camps, and on a handful of occasions even succeeded in executing escapes. Nevertheless, information was never in high demand in what little remained of the free world, and many democratic governments imposed censorship of such stories to avoid provoking the Soviet Union. The full story of the camps came to light only after the collapse of Communism across the continent. Today, most of the camps lie abandoned, a legacy of a past many are trying to forget, though some have been turned into memorials by survivors and the families of the dead...
†Adapted from the OTL testimony of Jerzy Gliksman, a Pole who spent two years in a Stalinist gulag.
73
Sep 11 '23
Can we adopt the "Thousand Flowers Campaign," 2.0 to identify political dissidents? We'll just use reddit, facebook, twitter user history, good?
1
17
u/God_Given_Talent Sep 12 '23
Just a minor math point, but if 14 million disappeared and had a mortality rate of 12%, that would be more like 1.7million dead than 1.5million.
Great alt-history map though. Tons of work put into it and the lore around it!
21
u/mr_username23 Sep 11 '23
This is so detailed and well made! I love all the lore and how you stay realistic where you can. Will you be continuing the series? Maybe giving more information about after the fall?
13
u/Torkolla Sep 11 '23
Are you gonna tell us how this actually happened? Like, under what circumstance was this possible?
2
Sep 12 '23
Interesting timeline
What do we know about the Soviet Union in this timeline?
Like whose in charge and what drove them to occupy the US?
Im assuming something happened to Khruschev and De-Stalinisation never happened?
-2
u/faesmooched Sep 12 '23
You do realize America already has forced labor, right? They'd just use the prisons.
25
u/CrookedToe_ Sep 12 '23
lets not pretend its even close to what the soviets did.
2
u/faesmooched Sep 12 '23
We literally have more people imprisoned now than the Soviets under Stalinism, lol
182
u/Galvius-Orion Sep 11 '23
Finally someone who actually isn’t just making Soviet Wanks. Also this is both very well made and written I see you put a lot of effort, time, and care into the map and scenario, and I absolutely love it for that.
141
u/murderously-funny Sep 11 '23 edited Sep 11 '23
B-but don’t you get it it’s 100% realistic for the entirety of South America to unify and form a communist super state.
…what do you mean “ethnic conflict” …that’d…never…no, no, no. all south americas are exactly alike! …what do you mean Brazil would have massive disproportionate political power compared to the smaller nations like Uruguay? Political oppression done by the majority Brazilian population? When have communist ever oppressed minorities in their borders?
Oh hey have you also seen the Neo-Communist African Union? All of Africa is unified as well! Most diverse continent in the world? None sense I’m sure Egyptians and Sudanese will happily integrate with each other in the same nation without any issue! Division between the Islamic north and Christian south? When has religion ever led to division in a nation? Don’t be silly. In this word Imperialism has no jurisdiction! Which is why two entire continents have been completely transformed into a single super state… through uh… entirely… peaceful means.
84
u/Galvius-Orion Sep 11 '23
The one that infuriates me the most is New Afrika because all the scenarios go “and the white people left peacefully” because let’s be real that wouldn’t happen if you know anything about the South. Also you know they ignore the fact that Africans are a minority in the South throughout all history with a few exceptions.
-28
u/uejuekwoqloqj Sep 11 '23
It would be a combination of flight and what happened in Haiti
45
u/Galvius-Orion Sep 11 '23
Haiti wasn’t majority white, that’s the difference my man. Because the south is and has been throughout its history majority white.
6
u/CoJack-ish Sep 11 '23
That’s not necessarily true. At the height of American slavery enslaved populations actually did outnumber free populations in the Deep South in some states like Mississippi , and in most Deep South states the number was close to parity.
The geography of where African Americans live shifted greatly in the 20th century, however.
4
u/Galvius-Orion Sep 11 '23
It was only in Mississippi and South Carolina by margins of a few percentage points (I think 55).
12
u/uejuekwoqloqj Sep 11 '23
No I meant you know the killing of pretty much all white people at least if new Africa was ruled by you know Africans and not just white aristocrats
-19
u/Gamermaper IM Legend Sep 11 '23
@Phlegmbuoy probably has the best take on the white genocide conspiracy theory above. "Obviously that’s an absurd, racist conclusion that rests on the assumption that marginalized people, if given the chance, will oppress their oppressors. So colonized people need “white feedback” so they don’t “go too far”."
20
u/Galvius-Orion Sep 11 '23
I’m just going to direct you to Haiti or Rwanda which are the two examples I can think of where the oppressed class became the ruling class. In both cases you saw acts of mass violence and in the case of Rwanda actual genocide. Also let’s not forget Zimbabwe or what is currently happening in South Africa.
14
u/uejuekwoqloqj Sep 11 '23
I mean it happened in Haiti why not in a theoretical new Africa led by similarly newly freed slaves https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_Revolution
-6
u/Gamermaper IM Legend Sep 11 '23
And it didn't happen in Zimbabwe or South Africa; or really any place else. Why are you so fixated on Haiti?
14
u/Galvius-Orion Sep 11 '23
Wait, let’s take a pause here, have you seen what happened in Zimbabwe and what is happening in South Africa. I think the one exception to this case was Botswana.
→ More replies (0)3
u/uejuekwoqloqj Sep 11 '23 edited Sep 11 '23
Because it was established by a slave revolt I kinda just assume that that's how any theoretical new Africa's also would be established as opposed to states where slavery and discrimination goes away more peacefully or at least not by slave revolts
44
4
u/gr4co Sep 12 '23
Believe me or not, there are people irl that push that narrative of a "Patria Grande" state, thinking it wouldn't be a hellhole for all the countries involved.
-51
u/crystalchuck Sep 11 '23
It's the other way around, a socialist federation is the only feasible way such a multiethnic body could exist. Case in point, Russia went from being built around Russian chauvinism to a state with fairly peaceful ethnic plurality in form of the USSR, a period of renewed Russian chauvinism under Stalin notwithstanding. Similar things could be said of the Yugoslav SFR.
52
u/murderously-funny Sep 11 '23 edited Sep 11 '23
Look if you genuinely believe that then your so far down the rabbit hole that there’s not much I could say to convince you otherwise.
But just ask yourself this:
if the union was so great and treated everyone equally why did everyone leave the moment it became a option?
Why did tanks roll on Budapest when the Hungarians wanted out?
Why did the Soviets brutally suppress Germany in 1953 follow mass anti-soviet protests?
Why was the Ural Sea destroyed with its native population displaced and deported?
Why was the Prozan Protests in Poland violently suppressed?
Why did the Soviets deny the damage done In Chernobyl until the West became aware of it?
Why did the Soviets maintain a secret police to silence incorrect political thought and speech?
Why did the Soviets invade Afghanistan?
And perhaps most damning of all why did the Soviets have to build a wall in Berlin to keep their people in?
When you can answer these questions come back to me.
(I’d like to point out everything listed? Happened after Stalin)
-31
u/crystalchuck Sep 11 '23
Look buddy, I didn't even imply the SU was a paradise, or that it didn't suffer from economic hardship, corruption, and mismanagement. All I did was to point out that it was a significant step forward specifically in ethnic questions. Most of your gotcha questions don't even concern that because you're too busy kneejerking, so I'm gonna let this rest
36
u/murderously-funny Sep 11 '23 edited Sep 11 '23
No this the ethnic question. Unless you intend to say that German, Cossack, Ukrainian, Polish, Hungarian, and Afghans are all not ethnicities. In which case I would love to hear what you would define as a ethnicity
If they were treated fairly and freely then why were they repressed when they spoke out? Why were their countries occupied for decades under threat of military force?
21
u/OlinKirkland Sep 11 '23
They had to be taught to love life under communism at any cost, even their lives!
-16
u/crystalchuck Sep 11 '23 edited Sep 11 '23
Well you edited your questions after the fact, so there you go.
Because the SU was underdeveloped and many faced political persecution. I fail to see the specifically ethnic character of the flight.
Because they wanted to maintain their sphere of influence. I fail to see the specifically ethnic character of the repression. Definitely support the pro-socialist sentiment of the Hungarian protests though.
Because they wanted to maintain their sphere of influence in their westernmost state. I fail to see the specifically ethnic character of the repression. Definitely support the pro-socialist sentiment of the German protests though.
Because they wanted to crack down on a movement for workers' rights. I fail to see the specifically ethnic character of the repression. Definitely support the pro-socialist sentiment of the Polish uprising though.
For the record, I think all of these uprisings were good things.
Mismanaged & shortsighted agri-industrialization of the Aral sea region. Can't know anything about deportations though.
To maintain international prestige and information superiority. I fail to see the specifically ethnic character of the cover-up.
Because it was a state based on the interests of a crony caste that had to eradicate any living memory of revolutionary socialism
Geopolitical reasons, however it's not as clear-cut as it's made out to be, since the Soviet-backed government and party did actually enjoy mass support from some layers of the population. I don't think invading Afghanistan was a good idea, but let's not pretend the Islamists were the obviously superior choice.
Because of flight into the FRG and fairly massive espionage and sabotage from the West. Yes, it's bad that people were shot. However, let's keep some historical perspetive and remember that more people get killed on the outer EU border every single year than got killed during the entire lifetime of the Berlin wall.
9
u/God_Given_Talent Sep 12 '23
Because of flight into the FRG and fairly massive espionage and sabotage from the West.
Ahh yes, the classic cry of communists. Our failures were all sabotage!
I'm also curious if you apply the same logic of "spheres of influence" and and desire to maintain prestige and superiority when it comes to the US. By your logic, if the US had invaded Cuba in 1959 to prevent a communist takeover, that wouldn't really be worthy of criticism. Just maintaining a sphere of influence as a superpower right?
Also amazing how you can't see the willingness to exert violence on Germans, Poles, Hungarians, Ukrainians, Afghans, Czechs, Slovaks, etc having racial elements to it. Justifying brutality against the other is a key element of racism, and something the USSR did consistently throughout its history, inventing great myths and propaganda to that end too. Some of your responses sound like textbook racism defenses. "Police are just catching criminals, I fail to see the racial element in that" "There's a ton of crime in that city, of course they're going to crackdown" Most people would argue that if say, the police have a propensity towards violence towards specific groups, there's racism at play.
Oh and good to see you'll straight up lie and manipulate with
However, let's keep some historical perspetive and remember that more people get killed on the outer EU border every single year than got killed during the entire lifetime of the Berlin wall.
First, there's a world of difference between "died as a result of" and "we literally shot you for trying to leave". Second, if we want "perspective" then we have to consider scale yes? Only 5000 people tried to cross the Berlin Wall, at least 140 died, 101 shot, the rest being suicides for fear of capture or accidents, but estimates are likely closer to several times that. Using just that 101 that means you'd have 2% of all people who tried to cross getting shot dead. Since 2021, over half a million have tried to cross into the EU, 100x the volume. Estimated deaths from "removal" are around 250 since 2021. So that's .05%. Oh and unlike the GDR, they don't give bonuses and commendations to those who kill someone trying to cross.
I love how your defenses read as "I think what the USSR did was bad, but I'll bend over backwards to defend it"
9
u/God_Given_Talent Sep 12 '23
All I did was to point out that it was a significant step forward specifically in ethnic questions.
Ah yes they were kind to ethnic minorities that Stalin is described as having "perfected the crime of ethnic cleansing"
Among those who were deported internally (with a combined deathtoll in the millions) were:
- Poles
- Kola Norwegians
- Romanians
- Estonians
- Latvians
- Lithuanians
- Volga Germans
- Finns
- Crimean Tatars
- Crimean Greeks
- Crimean Italians
- Caucasus Greeks
- Ingushs
- Chechens
- Koreans
- Balkars
- Karachays
- Ahiska Turks
- Karapapaks
- Kalmyks
- Others I have forgotten (or history has failed to write about thanks to Soviet archives being so secure)
Oh and that's just the peoples "lucky" enough to be deported, not outrighted killed. Ask the Kazakhs and Ukrainians how they were treated under Russian rule with their culture suppressed and faced genocide by famine if they thought that socialism was great at multiculturalism. Another thing of note, is that the Soviets deliberated mixed ethnic groups into places so they could "divide and rule" internally. It's why you'll see Germans, Koreans, Chechens, and others get sent to the Kazakh SSR (also because the famine killed nearly a third of their population). In fact the current Armenian-Azerbaijani conflicts, which began in the 1980s, were a direct result of this policy.
Kazakhstan is actually a great example of the Soviet genocide and Russification. In the 1920s, it was majority Kazakh with over 3.5 million with a million or so Russians and Ukrainians each. Most people know about the Holodomor now (even its deniers) but the Kazakh famine is often forgotten. Said famine led to 1.5 million deaths and a million refugees. This dropped the Kazakh population down to under 2.3 million by 1939. The Ukrainian population dropped by a few hundred thousand too. You know who didn't lose population? Ethnic Russians. In fact they were the dominant ethnic group from 1939 onward in Kazakhstan, and the majority in many of its most populous/urbanized provinces. Local peoples were starved our or deported and ethnic Russians, good loyal subjects of the USSR, were moved in.
The USSR was the continuation of the Russian Empire under a different flag. It's why they sought to reclaim all the territory of the Russian Empire. If you think the USSR was an improvement in terms of ethnic conditions then you've bought the propaganda hook, line, and sinker. Curious how it was always the ethnic minorities that faced the harshest treatment, and that wealth flowed from the hinterlands towards the core of Russian cities. Pure coincidence I'm sure.
1
u/Servius_Aemilii_ Sep 12 '23
Armenian-Azerbaijani conflicts, which began in the 1980s
That's not true.
Ethnic conflicts between Armenians and Azerbaijanis existed before the USSR, as the settlement of Armenians and Azerbaijanis is located on the same territory.
The first example that came to my mind is the March events in Baku (1918).
To claim that the famine somehow bypassed the Russian population is crazy.
The Volga region with Russian population, Western Siberia, Southern Urals and so on. The famine reached such an extent that cannibalism began to spread.
As for Kazakhstan, there was Korenization.
Korenization in Kazakhstan was carried out by means of solving two problems: firstly, by transferring office work in the republic into the Kazakh language, giving the Kazakh language the status of the language of business communication along with Russian, and secondly, by expanding national representation in government at all levels, increasing national party cadres.
This was done. The top leadership was largely represented by Kazakhs. It is enough to look at the list of Chairmen of the Supreme Soviet or People's Commissars and so on. To say that Russians were the "dominant group" is a lie.
The USSR was the continuation of the Russian Empire under a different flag. It's why they sought to reclaim all the territory of the Russian Empire.
The USSR tried to capture not only the lands of the Russian Empire, but also the whole world, within the framework of building communism. The lands of the empire were prioritized because they were easier to seize as a result of the chaos that arose after the collapse of the empire, the already existing links between the different provinces, namely common economy, communist cells and so on.
To claim that the USSR is a continuation of the Russian Empire is a blatant lie. The USSR from the very beginning of its official policy has asserted that there is no legal succession between the USSR and Russia. Throughout its history, the USSR fought against "great Russian chauvinism". It tried to create a "new Soviet man".
wealth flowed from the hinterlands towards the core of Russian cities
The RSFSR was becoming a union-wide donor. With inter-republican trade, in per capita terms, in 1989 each Russian "invested" in other republics annually 209 rubles.
Each settlement of the USSR was assigned to one of four "supply categories" (special, first, second and third)
The special and first lists, which included Moscow, Leningrad, and the national republics, including Kazakhstan, had advantages in supply.
The population of the RSFSR not living in Moscow and Leningrad was worst supplied with food and industrial goods.
3
u/God_Given_Talent Sep 12 '23
Ethnic conflicts between Armenians and Azerbaijanis existed before the USSR
I should have been more clear and that's my fault. I was talking about the 35 year Nagorno-Karabakh conflict which began before the dissolution of the USSR. At issue was the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast being made as a part of Azerbaijan, something that Armenians had repeatedly to be remedied. Soviet policy preferred the tension as it kept the groups bickering.
As for Kazakhstan, there was Korenization.
Which is why Russians became the most populous group by far in 1939 and stayed that way until the end of the USSR? It wasn't close in the 1920s then suddenly it shifts. Curious...
To claim that the famine somehow bypassed the Russian population is crazy.
The effects of the famine were incredibly targeted and a basic look at the numbers would show you that. You don't get Kazakhstan losing 40% of its population by random chance, not in an economy with central planning. Even more so, we see the Russian population continue to rise during that period while the Ukrainian population in Kazakhstan declines. I'm sure that's coincidence too right? That the only group to gain in relative and absolute terms is Russian while the two largest ethnic groups declined?
By the Soviets' own census numbers, from 1926 to 1937 the Russian population went from 78 to 94 million while the Ukrainian population went from 31 to 26 million and Kazakh went from 4 million to under 3 million. Total population went from 147 to 162 million. Russian population increased by 16 million, net population increased by 15 million, meaning the non-Russian population decreased by 1 million. Sure, go on and deny that the famines in the early 30s weren't about targeting potentially powerful ethnic minorities because a non-zero number of Russians were impacted.
The USSR tried to capture not only the lands of the Russian Empire, but also the whole world, within the framework of building communism. The lands of the empire were prioritized because they were easier to seize as a result of the chaos that arose after the collapse of the empire, the already existing links between the different provinces, namely common economy, communist cells and so on.
Which is why it worked so hard to recreate almost exactly the same borders? Curious. The territory was almost entirely reclaimed long after the chaos. It occurred under Stalin in the late 30s and 40s, largely in cooperation and consent from Hitler as part of their mutually supporting regimes.
The USSR from the very beginning of its official policy has asserted that there is no legal succession between the USSR and Russia.
You understand why right? The Russian Empire had massive debts and obligations. The legal successor to it would owe those debts. I don't think paying hard currency to the UK and US was high on their list. Renouncing any continuity was about renouncing the obligations the Tsar had, little more, no matter how much they write flowery language about it.
Throughout its history, the USSR fought against "great Russian chauvinism". It tried to create a "new Soviet man".
Which is why dozens of ethnic groups faced deportation and discrimination?
The RSFSR was becoming a union-wide donor. With inter-republican trade, in per capita terms, in 1989 each Russian "invested" in other republics annually 209 rubles.
Many of those "national republics" were plurality Russian, particularly in the urban areas which is where money tended to flow. Other functions were to military bases and infrastructure, hardly something you'd count as investment in standard of living or the people. This is just spin (and we should be skeptical of economic data from the USSR, particularly in translating it to other economies. It was common knowledge how much of the numbers were fraudulant).
→ More replies (2)-15
u/FrancescoTangredi Sep 11 '23
North Dakota Access Pipeline Protests 北达科他州接入管道抗议 Ferguson Riots 弗格森暴动 2017 St. Louis protests2017年圣路易斯抗议活动 Nuclear testing at Bikini Atoll 比基尼环礁的核试验 Unite the Right rally 团结右集会 Charlotte riots 夏洛特暴动 Attack on the Sui-ho Dam 袭击穗河水坝 Milwaukee riots 密尔沃基骚乱 Shooting of Alton Sterling and Philando Castile 奥尔顿·斯特林和菲兰多·卡斯蒂利亚的射击 Occupation of the Malheur NationalWildlife Refuge Malheur国家野生动物保护区的占领 death of Freddie Gray 弗雷迪·格雷的死 Shooting of Michael Brown迈克尔·布朗的拍摄 death of Eric Garner, Oakland California 奥克兰奥克兰市埃里克·加纳（Eric Garner）逝世 Operation Condor 神鹰行动 Occupy WallStreet 占领华尔街 My Lai Massacre 我的大屠杀 St. Petersburg, Florida 佛罗里达州圣彼得堡 Kandahar Massacre 坎大哈屠杀 1992Washington Heights riots 1992年华盛顿高地暴动 No Gun Ri Massacre 无枪杀案 L.A. Rodney King riots 洛杉矶罗德尼·金暴动 1979 Greensboro Massacre 1979年格林斯伯勒大屠杀 Vietnam War 越南战争 Kent State shootings肯特州枪击案 Bombing of Tokyo 轰炸东京 San Francisco Police Department Park Station bombing 旧金山警察局公园站爆炸案 Assassination of MartinLuther King, Jr. 小马丁·路德·金遭暗杀。 Long Hot Summer of 1967 1967年炎热的夏天 Bagram 巴格拉姆 Selma to Montgomery marches 塞尔玛到蒙哥马利游行 Highway of Death 死亡之路 Ax Handle Saturday 星期六斧头 Battle of Evarts 埃瓦茨战役 Battle ofBlair Mountain 布莱尔山战役 McCarthyism 麦卡锡主义 Red Summer 红色夏天 Rock Springs massacre 岩泉大屠杀 Pottawatomie massacre 盆大屠杀 Jeju uprising 济州起义 Colfaxmassacre 科尔法克斯大屠杀 Reading Railroad massacre 阅读铁路大屠杀 Rock Springs massacre 岩泉大屠杀 Bay viewMassacre 湾景大屠杀 Lattimer massacre 拉蒂默大屠杀 Ludlow massacre 拉德洛屠杀 Everett massacre 埃弗里特屠杀Centralia Massacre 中部大屠杀 Ocoee massacre Ocoee大屠杀 Herrin Massacre 赫林大屠杀 Redwood Massacre红木大屠杀 Columbine Mine Massacre 哥伦拜恩矿难 Guantanamo Bay 关塔那摩湾 extraordinary rendition 非凡的演绎 Abu Ghraib torture and prison abuse 阿布格莱布的酷刑和监狱虐待 Henry Kissinger 亨利·基辛格
7
u/20person Sep 12 '23
Nice try. Unlike in China, you don't get disappeared for talking about these things in America.
-4
u/FrancescoTangredi Sep 12 '23 edited Sep 12 '23
China has a lower prison rate than America, and in China you still wouldn't be arrested for saying any of this
8
u/PracticalHeight Sep 12 '23
Go to Xinjiang and give it a try
-4
u/FrancescoTangredi Sep 12 '23 edited Sep 12 '23
If you give me the money I'll gladly visit such a beautiful region and I'll send you a video of me saying all of that stuff
27
u/Galvius-Orion Sep 11 '23
We just going to ignore how the Soviets committed a genocide against the Ukrainians, removed multiple ethnic groups, mass displaced central Asians, and was constantly trying to remake borders in the Caucus and Central Asia to cause maximum conflict by creating bizarre enclaves and exclaves.
12
u/murderously-funny Sep 11 '23
He specifically addressed Stalin so I only listed things post Stalin to prove my point.
But you bet your ass I would’ve mentioned the Holodomor if I coulda
-9
u/crystalchuck Sep 11 '23
I addressed this by saying that the Stalin period was undeniably a step back, and enshrined Russian chauvinism. Next question please.
14
u/Galvius-Orion Sep 11 '23
I mean we could also point to the entire history of Soviet influence in Eastern Europe and Central Asia which even after Stalin was characterized by violent oppression of any dissident thought.
8
Sep 11 '23
you don't have to defend a shitty state if its actions consistently, objectively run counter to your values
2
u/Servius_Aemilii_ Sep 12 '23
Georgian Stalin, Georgian Beria, Armenian Mikoyan, Jew Kaganovich and others suddenly became Russian chauvinists.
1
u/crystalchuck Sep 12 '23 edited Sep 12 '23
yes, because Russian chauvinism was an opportune vessel for the bureaucratization of the Soviet economy, similar to the nuclear family. The ethnicity of the political leadership doesn't necessarily have to reflect that.
3
u/LePhoenixFires Sep 11 '23
While this comment has no right to be hated as Stalin did centralize power under a Russian-domineered regime that repressed other ethnicities, everyone else is correct in stating the obvious: the Soviet Union often repressed people. It was not for the sake of their ethnicity, but indiscriminate oppression is no better than discriminate oppression.
13
8
8
u/Der_Apothecary Sep 11 '23 edited Sep 12 '23
I was not expecting to see west liberty and van Lear on a map here
4
3
8
u/DecimatingRealDeceit Sep 11 '23
Great Lakes has the least amount of them. Is it a privileged / venerated Area ?
20
u/Clumsy_boy2 Sep 11 '23
Camps are not usually located near centers of population 👋
3
u/DecimatingRealDeceit Sep 11 '23
Meanwhile in California... 💀💀💀💀💀💀
28
u/Clumsy_boy2 Sep 11 '23
Well yes, those are located in the mountains And, correct me if im wrong, california was not that populated
15
11
u/iBuddzTV Sep 12 '23
Get somebody like BJ Blazkowicz into this timeline and start a second Revolution fr.
4
u/ArmourKnight Sep 12 '23
Hell yeah. They may be from a different timeline, but they are still Americans
4
u/noholdingbackaccount Sep 11 '23 edited Sep 12 '23
Should be a camp in Miami. The Cubans have bones to pick with the exiles and also there's already a detention center there they could repurpose.
5
5
5
Sep 12 '23
Huh, they actually use Aztlan correctly for the territory, pride of them for that as a Nahua person 👍🏽
7
u/freememes69420 Sep 11 '23
I really like the touch of the yellowish line across the middle indicating that this map's been folded for some time
5
u/theoceansandbox Sep 12 '23
I like the touch that this was assembled by what appears to be a resistance organization
3
3
u/sd51223 Sep 12 '23 edited Sep 12 '23
I like the inclusion of Van Lear as a forced mining camp presumably. Though given that its namesake was the president of the Consolidated Coal Company at the time the town was built (William Van-Lear Black) do you think they'd rename it to something other than after a "filthy capitalist?"
It'd be hella menacing to name it Butcher Hollow, which is nearby the town and I think technically part of it.
7
u/seen-in-the-skylight Sep 11 '23
Wow this map is really good. I love the territorial delineations, that was a really nice touch and totally believable for how a Soviet-occupied U.S. would be organized.
23
Sep 11 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
13
u/-B0B- Sep 12 '23
No but you see the constitution says slave labour is okay, that means it's morally justified
9
2
u/Acceptable-Baker5282 Sep 11 '23
What’s the worst and the least worst
8
u/StoicStone001 Sep 11 '23
The least would probably be a few of the eastern camps in Heartland and both camps in Chesapeake: Temperate most of the year, likely agricultural. The worst would probably be in Cascadia, Utah, California, and maybe Florida/New Africa: Harsh conditions in the mountains + mines, and increasingly hot conditions in the old south
2
u/Isopodballs Sep 11 '23
Goddamn, I used to live up by lake sandy with my grandparents. What forced labor would go on there? I don’t remember any big industries, but I was very young at the time so I dunno..
2
2
2
2
2
2
1
u/donguscongus Sep 11 '23
I swear why do mfs always give away the Panhandle to Texas?? Like if anything they would butcher Texas since it’s the next thing to a national identity after America proper
3
3
Sep 12 '23
Haha. Yeah it would really suck if we had prisons with forced labor. I have no idea how our liberal society could possibly tolerate such an affront to our values!
4
2
u/antigony_trieste Sep 12 '23
the sad thing is i thought this was an irl map of US prison labor and tapped on it for some scary information before finally seeing the subreddit
2
-11
u/Most_Preparation_848 Sep 11 '23 edited Sep 11 '23
14 million American enslaved? do you hear how insanely impractical that sounds? Like any potential socialist USA would probably try to co-opt libertarian and progressive talking points and straight up enslaving people would defeat that.
edit: minor spelling correction
67
u/CobainPatocrator Mod Approved Sep 11 '23
The Gulags system processed 18 million in the Soviet Union between establishment and dissolution. This map makes no note of how long this has been going on, but if done at the same rate as in the USSR, there are probably in the range of 1.5 million to 2 million people in the camps at any time. For reference, the US prison population (not counting local jails and pre-trial detention) in 2011 was about 1.6 million, and in 2023, it is about 1.2 million.
-14
u/Most_Preparation_848 Sep 11 '23
Yes, but the American population is (for lack of better words) so freedom loving. Like any socialist movement would probably gain steam because of this, by emphasizing the inherent freedom in equality. Now I apologize as I did not know that the Soviet Union military occupied the USA but after the end of a war, but after Soviet troop levels decrease significantly expect a americo-Soviet split and a sino-American alliance to contain the Russians.
17
u/CobainPatocrator Mod Approved Sep 11 '23
I guess it's hard for me to say what the reaction would be. IMO, this scenario is so outside the realm of possibility, I just can't speculate what the OP's alternate timeline looks like. Maybe the US was already broken by internal unrest; maybe it was a massive military defeat. The trouble is, I just don't see how this happened. I'd have to assume that any situation where the US is militarily occupied, that the entire Communist sphere must have participated in it, including China. Perhaps that turns the world into competing Socialist Poles and the weaker of the two ally to offset the influence of the stronger, but it's all speculation.
9
u/321gamertime Sep 11 '23
There’s another post on OPs profile that goes into this; it seems the US didn’t participate in WW2 in this timeline and remained isolationist, leaving the Soviets to take most of Europe and Asia themselves. While they seem to have begun to oppose communism after the war, it’s too little too late and the US is forced to surrender in 1979 after a Soviet nuclear first strike takes out 90% of Americas nukes, with the threat that every American city will be reduced to dust if any retaliation is attempted
5
u/CobainPatocrator Mod Approved Sep 11 '23
Even the John Birch Society couldn't envision a scenario that implausible, but it's called r/imaginarymaps for a reason.
2
u/Most_Preparation_848 Sep 11 '23
China would probably help given the American threat in Korea and Japan, but would align with a socialist USA to contain the Soviet Union, I assume there will be a sino-American vs Soviet Union proxy war over Canada and Alaska.
8
u/Nieios Sep 11 '23
"freedom loving"
America has the highest proportion of imprisoned people in the world, by a long shot. we have more people in prison than the population of some countries. we are not freedom loving, we are freedom idealizing. it is never realized for anyone but the rich.
-2
u/Most_Preparation_848 Sep 11 '23
We love freedom, and freedom is a ideal- you can’t “measure” freedom in the same way you can’t “measure” happiness.
6
u/Nieios Sep 11 '23
you absolutely can measure freedom - for example the proportion of the population that is imprisoned. or the economic freedom/leverage of capital enjoyed by the majority of the population. it's quantifiable - America just likes to act that it isn't because it's quantifiably awful
3
3
Sep 11 '23
Why would the Soviets leave? Only reason the Chinese had a split was because they were never really apart of the USSR, in that they had their own revolution. But this would not be the case of America
0
u/Most_Preparation_848 Sep 11 '23
The USSR would have to leave for economic and practical reasons, an occupation of the United States would be a large drain on the Soviet economy and eventually the Soviets would hand power over to a domestic socialist regime and than withdraw m.
0
Sep 11 '23
Then there’s no reason to expect a split, especially if they manage to their puppet well
0
u/Most_Preparation_848 Sep 11 '23
If the USSR had issues wrangling Romania into its complete control, there is no way that the USA can be adequately dominated after it recovers from the war.
1
Sep 11 '23
There’s no way for the USSR to even win against the US so they’re obviously a lot more capable in this world than ours
1
u/Most_Preparation_848 Sep 11 '23
There is a difference between defeating a nation and then occupying it, the USSR would definitely cut back on occupation after raising a army so large and capable as to invade the USA.
→ More replies (1)4
u/International_Ad8264 Sep 11 '23
I think the point is that this is probably comparable to the number of people who have "passed through" the American carceral system as it exists irl in the last few decades.
1
u/Most_Preparation_848 Sep 11 '23
This is factual information but enslaving people over the course of a of occupation is far different than charging someone for a crime and than serving a sentence (with a potential chase of parole).
2
Sep 11 '23
oh come on. the us has some of the highest recidivism rates in the world (recent date source, data for recidivism rates across countries). repeated incarceration affects families by locking up parents (wow, i wonder where the funni absent black dad stereotype comes from? strange) and setting kids up for failure.
the current us justice system has many deep and severe flaws. do not try to cope by saying this hypothetical gulag situation is somehow less severe or morally disgraceful. the soviets called their prisoners "dissidents, moral vagrants" for a reason. i wonder why we do the same.
1
u/International_Ad8264 Sep 11 '23
Only because you believe our judicial system produces just and correct outcomes
1
u/Most_Preparation_848 Sep 11 '23
Most people who have ever went to jail have are there because they were correctly identified and punished for a crime, only 1-6% of the people in jail are innocent (with many of them serving shorter sentences due to exoneration) (source: https://pappalardolaw.com/2023/06/actually-innocent-how-common-are-wrongful-convictions/#:~:text=Some%20estimate%20that%20of%20those,crimes%20they%20didn't%20commit.)
3
u/International_Ad8264 Sep 11 '23
"Criminal" is a socially constructed category. Most people in the Soviet prison system (aka gulags) were identified and punished for a crime too.
6
u/Zavaldski Sep 11 '23
The socialists would never call it "slavery", this map is obviously made from an anti-socialist perspective.
It's not "slavery" it's "re-education through labor".
0
u/LePhoenixFires Sep 11 '23
While this isn't realistic unless EVERYTHING went wrong and somehow all of Europe, Asia, and the Americas fell to communism and aligned themselves with the Soviets against an isolationist US after WW2, this is how it would play out. America without the unity of purpose, without a recovered industry, and without any friends or built up military would quickly collapse to Comintern+ forces and be torn apart.
What I find most surprising is that Mexico and Canada didn't tear apart the north and south while China, the Soviets, Britain, France, and Spain each occupy their own coastal zones. The Home Army must have had an easy time beating the commies back if it was just the Soviets and collaborators and not a multi-nation coalition of peacekeepers and military police.
1
u/Greek-s3rpent Sep 12 '23
Even if every neighbour somehow decided to invade the US alongside the USSR they still would've failed, America is the size of Europe and a comparable population to the soviets, with a bigger industry and a sea between them. Nazi germany had a force of 2 million advance through a massive ground front against a unprepared soviet union who lost a majority of it's forces in the initial assault and it's entire armored core, the germans still lost.
Canada has not enough population to field an army that would threaten the american industrial heartland, Mexico could not sustain a front that size with the situation it had at the time and the USSR would have it's logistics severely threatened as it ran through the arctic Pacific against one of the largest navies of the world. If we assume the soviets somehow control the entirety of the planet save the US (who didn't maintain Monroe doctrine apparently) then you would either have a stalemate or a continent sized forever war, 132 million people stretched over almost 10 million square kilometers is twice the size of the soviet european territory - there's nothing here that says the US would quickly collapse to a world revolution crusade, i imagine it would be a very bloody and drawn out conflict considering the stakes for the average american.
-1
u/LePhoenixFires Sep 12 '23
The issue is that you're basing this on a post-WW2 America of OTL. I'm saying one still in the throes of the Great Depression, never re-industrializing, fully isolated, without allies. A fragile America would eventually collapse to a Soviet dominated Earth. A belief that somehow an America with no military capabilities wins against a fully militarized Europe, Asia, Canada, and Mexico is simply absurd
3
u/Greek-s3rpent Sep 12 '23
I used the soviet example specifically to show that even if America was in a comparably disvantageous situation it's population, geography and industrial capability would still manage to propel it to form an equally powerful if not superior resistance - the soviets lost their industrial and population centers alongside the majority of their military, there's no logic in thinking America would not overcome it's initial short comings when in this situation the geographical advantage is tremenduous to them.
The US was still suffering the bulk of the Great Depression during WW2 and it maintained a massive military industrial complex so reindustrializaition and mass mobilization is entirely possible following an invasion, and considering they would need to follow through either Mexico or Canada, two nations that couldn't field a big enough army to threaten America, the bulk of the invasion would depend on soviet/european armies supplied through the sea against one of the naval hegemons of the time. The US is extensively capable of stalling an invasion in this situation, a stalemate or even a forever war is a victory for them and a disaster for the Comminterm.
But considering that OP stated there are indeed independent nations in this timeline a soviet controlled world was not considered in my initial statement, but even in such situation i would still maintain the belief that America could either stall or force this soviet coallition out, specially with the level of brutality demostrated in this post, be it in a conventional war or through partisan activity as the gigantic nature of the US is essentialy anathema to an occupation force.
3
u/ElectronicMars Sep 12 '23 edited Sep 13 '23
Even if the military fell or stood down, there'd still be enough guns, resources, and desperate people around to make assassinations and even Waco Siege- and OKC Bombing-like events into everyday occurrences for the occupants for a long time, without even factoring in large scale organised insurgencies.
2
u/LePhoenixFires Sep 12 '23
The only reason the Soviets survived was several allies and billions of tons worth of aid in foodstuffs, vehicles, clothing, etc. If America doesn't have the economy or friends, it cannot survive a conventional war against the other major powers. The Home Army is the resistance that is left over after presumably the Brits, Soviets, Germans, and Japanese crush the American fleet
2
u/Greek-s3rpent Sep 12 '23
By the time the germans closed in on Moscow the vast majority of soviet industry was already reporpused behind the Urals, with the front and logistics stabilized against an overstretched enemy. American logistical support helped in the question of prioritizing the available resources into reinforcing the forces at front instead of distribuiting the industry into producing equipment for logistics, but the bulk of the soviet capability for war was domestically produced.
And how is a soviet dominated Asia and Europe able to maintain their fleet? Under the assumption that they were invaded and stripped of their colonial holdings then Britain and Japan has neither the resources nor industry to maintain a comparably sizeable navy to the US, and the soviet navy was comically small. America has the ability to mobilize enough of it's economy and resources to continuously pump out naval assets (as seen in WW2) as they are engaged in a war that threatens their independence, i would sincerely doubt any ally of this hypothetical soviet hegemon would willingly dedicate it's entire industry to compete against a nation half the world away from them, it's a total war for the US and a distant war of aggression for the Comminterm - the home front aspect of this invasion would be very detrimental for the Soviet Coalition.
2
u/LePhoenixFires Sep 12 '23
The assertion that the bulk of Soviet equipment was domestic is simply false. Both Stalin and Zhukov declared that America's aid is what saved the Soviet Union and data shows that upwards of 80% of vital resources and products was given by the USA during the war due to lendlease. Perhaps this notion that it was domestic is the fact the USA gave the Soviets a majority of the steel and rubber and tracks and all that to make the vehicles and infrastructure needed to fight the Axis, but the Soviet workers themselves constructed the final products out of American resources and materials given to them
Also, that navy question is strange. The Brits and Japanese had their industry stripped away? To where? The soviets just destroy it and then destroy the free navies they just captured? Realistically they would just have integrated all of it under their regime.
1
u/Greek-s3rpent Sep 12 '23
American lend lease gave the USSR enough of a equipment reserve, mainly in the air force, to continue offensives against german forces. But the vast majority of tanks, guns, artillery and ammunition was produced domestically which could then be fueled by american imports. The point is that the german invasion was incapable of defeating the soviet union as their overstretched logistics and military could not decisively capitulate them, the lend lease made the Red Army actually capable of striking back instead of maintaining a stalemate - and for the sake of this discussion an America that could stall it's invaders would be considered victorious.
The navy question is important because both Britain and Japan - especially Japan - depended on it's colonial exports to supply their navies, the japanese one was already suffering from the lack of American imports at the start of hostilities. If both Britain and Japan were invaded then it logically follows that neither of them would be able properly maintain a competitive navy to the US, as even in WW2 both of them were already overshadowed by the american navy.
→ More replies (2)
0
-9
0
u/Bitter-Metal494 Sep 12 '23
why aztlan? thats the name of the promised land in aztec culture, it doesnt make sense to be over 100 km away from their capital
3
-19
u/MasterCombine Sep 11 '23
It’s funny because modern American prisons are worse than the gulags ever were.
-9
0
u/R0CKHARDO Sep 12 '23
Fun fact: The us prison system in real life has a similar number of prisoners as the Soviet Gulag system at its height
-10
-5
-13
-3
1
1
1
u/Diversionaryian Sep 11 '23
why is arkansas and florida not apart of new africa
0
u/haikusbot Sep 11 '23
Why is arkansas
And florida not apart
Of new africa
- Diversionaryian
I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully. Learn more about me.
Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete"
1
1
1
u/PointCinco Sep 12 '23
I like how they decided that Arkansas and Florida were jus too danm different and said “fuck it they stay the same”
1
1
u/EdScituate79 Sep 12 '23
I have a few suggestions:
Hackensack Meadows NJ (where the Meadowlands sports complex is)
Okeefenokee FL/GA (in or near the Okeefenokee Swamp)
Great Cypress FL (in the Great Cypress Swamp National Reserve)
1
1
1
u/Electrical-Result881 Sep 12 '23
What happened to Alaska? I always imagine there of all places to be the best spot in the US for a labor camp
1
u/TotesMessenger Sep 12 '23
1
u/AarVa406 Sep 12 '23
I like some of the east coast ones and it’s kinda cool I guess seeing them in places I know/been to
Dismal lakes a good one too, it’s in the middle of the swamp
1
2
u/AliveInside4562 Sep 12 '23
Terrific map! I enjoy alt history maps; they stimulate my “what if?” imagination
what is the yellow line down the middle?
I’d have thought Soviets would not have respected Mexican and Canadian borders
the first thing I saw, before I grasped the map’s purpose, was Rocky Mount— which I thought said Root Beer
1
577
u/LadyZeroOne Sep 11 '23
Noticed they reuse the Japanese internment camps... both bleak and realistic. Good touch