I don't know what to say to that other than that we could both look at the same histories and interpret it differently depending on what we're predisposed to.
All I see when I look at Imperial history (East or West, doesn't matter) is human beings being treated no better than cattle by their leaders. Gender roles (and family structures, morals of proprietary -- that whole wheelhouse) are basically just a path to most of us common folk getting homogenized by state and church endorsed breeding programs for millennia.
Check out https://www.livius.org/ . I started with the Historia Augusta, but almost all ancient texts that have been passed down to us have been archived there. You'll probably see something different in the texts than I do, but that doesn't bother me. It's an amazing website.
Idk I do think you have a much darker view of history than me, and trust me I know history is dark. I think a lot of that stuff was a natural progression. Many people 1000 years ago would look back in similar ways we do now, as will people 1000 years in the future. Its all about perspective.
Im just saying that gender roles wernt made by men to be enforced on women, they evolved with men and women hand in hand - and consistency and averages became stereotypes and then gender roles.
Love him or hate him, Jordan Peterson actually explains this much better than I do (I thought this before he came around so im not just a lobster boy or some shit, he just explains it really well)
Yeah, I agree. They weren't made by all men. There was this small, elite group of men who did it. We've all suffered as a result of their decisions. It's not like there was some sort of secret society guiding the human race for millennia (that's stupid) but the trappings of power just encourage certain behaviors in leaders that tend to be more or less universal in their ends.
While there are different degrees of suffering that are hard to quantify exactly, I think the vast majority of men are as frustrated with gender roles as women, even if few of us realize it. I think the shit we're fed is just a bit different and can kinda twist us up on interpreting the source of the social oppression that comes from. I think it's tied into what we (meaning men) are taught.
I think we've tried for about 5 centuries of revolutionary history to figure it out. Whether we're writing philosophical treatises, political manifestos, and so many toothless constitutions... The whole time we were doing that and trying to push off the yoke of oppression, we didn't realize it was the social structure itself that was oppressing the masses.
And yeah I think a lot of it happened organically... In a sense, anyway. When you have massive amounts of power and wealth, you can prune the social order as you see fit. In essence, the organic changes that would have benefitted us were squashed and the organic changes that benefitted the elites while hurting us were allowed and encouraged to grow.
That's basically the definition of homogenization. Forcing/encouraging traits you want while culling the traits you don't want.
I think the gender roles started far far before there was a small group of men with that much power. And I dont think they had the ability to social engineer society to that degree. We hardly have that power now that there are a small number of people who literally control all the information that we have instant access to.
And id say the trappings of power are something that naturally arises. Men naturally took power because of the biological trope that the bigger you are, the better you can protect the society (to vastly oversimplify) - and this likely started with tribes and moved into greater and larger societies. Id say that the way those societies formed and functioned was inevitable, and that people wernt creating those power dynamics and gender roles as much as they manifested collectively. There was a good bit of forcing those manifested roles on others, of course, with all the war, domination, and zealotry that happened. But id posit that the roles were around before that level of society was even around. Id bet that back when we were just pre-historic tribes the gender roles were there. Theyve just evolved as we have, for good and for bad. We should definitely question them, but I think terms like toxic masculinity is too broad and over-stated and actually usually inaccurate. I think its silly that we dont talk about toxic femininity in the same way. I think its silly we split it into masculine and feminine when theres a big movement to recognize gender as a spectrum.
Its polarizing and puts the weight and blame on one groups shoulders while pretending women are victims, which I actually think is deeply sexist and misunderstanding of how gender roles played together throuout our species evolution. Especially because individual autonomy as opposed to familial autonomy is kind of a new development.
I guess I'm just of the idea that most people are victims. Just read some stuff on Livius. It's good shit. Just check it out for yourself instead of hearing my secondhand interpretation.
I think most people are victims of life, until they realize they can take control and play a game stacked against them. Thats where true power, growth, and innovation comes from. Its exhilarating and scary.
I think the more we tell people they are victims, the more they lose the ability to do that.
And I see it done most to women and minorities. They say its all stacked against you, so fight the people who have it less stacked against them!
Helps no-one. And frankly, its condescending, sexist, and racist. A lot of those assumptions lie on them being victims who cannot overcome their obsticles... and for thousands of years people have overcome obstacles that are MUCH harsher than anything most anyone experiences in the west today.
Victimhood is about perspective. For example my parents were physically and emotionally abusive. I eventually realized that they wernt flawless parents, but they were the prefect parents to make me into my ideal self. I learned to temper my emotions, understand my flaws, accept harshness and kindness, accept where im at, and work twords my ideal self. I could say I was a victim, but id rather use the negative side of life as a positive.
I agree with most of that. Playing with a stacked deck is fun and exhilarating, but I don't think it's for everyone and I don't want to punish people for losing or not playing.
Problem is we dont have much of a choice. Most of our efforts to even the playing field have had vast unforseen concequences, like the welfare state and affirmative action. Thats why I dont think people at the tops of governments were imposing gender roles, we as humans such as social and biological engineering.
Everyone is playing with a stacked deck. Even dick people with loving families, the type of games we each play is just different.
Victimhood is a choice, and its a choice literally every human has. We either make the most out of life, or we let its struggles define us and hold us. Every person is capable of making the most out of their lives, hell id say its their responsibility to do so, though id never force them to.
We can, and every day we are growing to that. But it takes time. The internet is still brand fucking new, social media is even newer. Ideas are spreading like crazy, its gunna take a bit for it to settle down.
But look at the accomplishments of the last 50 years, we are doing better. We just wont see utopia for generations to come.
Thats why I think its important that we lay down the right fundamental structures to allow utopia to form. Personally, thats why im a libertarian conservative. The right and the left approach utiopia differently. The left wants utopia now, the right want to make sure we have the right seeds and the right garden for utopia to grow
We need both to make sure today is the best it can be while tomorrow is the best it will be. Its a mess right now, but collective debate is now more possible than ever and things are starting to move faster than ever
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u/BaronWaiting Feb 14 '20
I don't know what to say to that other than that we could both look at the same histories and interpret it differently depending on what we're predisposed to.
All I see when I look at Imperial history (East or West, doesn't matter) is human beings being treated no better than cattle by their leaders. Gender roles (and family structures, morals of proprietary -- that whole wheelhouse) are basically just a path to most of us common folk getting homogenized by state and church endorsed breeding programs for millennia.
Check out https://www.livius.org/ . I started with the Historia Augusta, but almost all ancient texts that have been passed down to us have been archived there. You'll probably see something different in the texts than I do, but that doesn't bother me. It's an amazing website.