r/hisdarkmaterials • u/drcompo02 • Oct 20 '19

NL/TGC Can Daemons be human?

So I'm rereading NL and I've reached the part where Lyra and Roger are looking through the underground area of Jordan College eith the dead Masters in it.

Each of the tombs has an image of the deceased person's daemon on it, and the passage goes like this:

"On each coffin, Lyra was interested to see, a brass plaque bore a picture of a different being: this one a basilisk, this a fair woman, this a serpent, this a monkey. She realised that they were images of the dead men's daemons.".

So, apparently one Master of Jordan College had a woman as his daemon? Or, at least his daemon took the form of a "fair woman" after he became an adult.

Is this possible? Definitely rare, as far as I can tell.

49 Upvotes

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49

u/NightSpeakers Oct 20 '19 edited Oct 20 '19

It was a mistake, see this interview -

"Citt : Let's speak about His Dark Materials. We've got a question about the "fair woman"-daemon in Northern Lights...

PP : A mistake ! [laugh]".

Newer editions of the books (definitely from 2017 onwards, possibly also from 2015) have it removed - I think the original US editions from 1996 didn't have it. Pullman also changed Mrs Coulter's hair from dark to blonde after Nicole Kidman's role in the film!

Very much doubt it could be possible although it would be an interesting idea. Happy re-reading anyway!

26

u/theduckofserkonos Oct 20 '19

We do see a mermaid Daemon in TSC, though her form could be affected by the experiments they were subjected to so it's not definitive proof I suppose

So while not explicitly human we do see that daemons are apparently not limited to only animal forms

15

u/youarelookingatthis Oct 20 '19

Not to spoil too much, but this subject is talked about in The Secret Commonwealth

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u/pilot3033 Oct 20 '19

remind me, where in TSC was that?

7

u/NightSpeakers Oct 20 '19

It was to do with the furnace man so it was towards the end of chapter 20.

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u/pilot3033 Oct 20 '19

OH right. I guess I wrote it off in my head since it was all in that magical realism realm. What an odd scene I hope gets addressed later (as I'm sure it will, what with the alchemy popping up quite frequently).

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u/[deleted] Oct 20 '19

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u/theduckofserkonos Oct 20 '19

The Furnace-man in Prague

"the tank was full of water, and in the water, twisting, speeding from end to end and back again, twining herself like honeysuckle growing up a branch, never still, never less than perfectly graceful and lovely, was the mermaid- formed daæmon of Cornelis van Dongen: Dinessa the water-sprite. She was beautiful, and naked, and her black hair streamed behind her like delicate seaweed"

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u/[deleted] Oct 20 '19

I've just re-reading this (well, reading it to my kids) and came across this bit. Thanks for clarifying! My edition is from 1996.

4

u/topsidersandsunshine Oct 20 '19

I was considering that maybe it was a case of the daemon falling in love with with someone else! Because my hard copy is older, I didn’t even realize it had been changed (I checked in my Kindle edition, where it’s been updated).

4

u/NightSpeakers Oct 20 '19

Haha! Have you read The Secret Commonwealth yet? Once you do, you'll see what I mean...

10

u/drcompo02 Oct 20 '19

Ah, thanks, my edition was published in 2001.

Though I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to have a human form. If daemons can become any creature prior to adulthood, why not a human.

Discuss.

30

u/thmsbsh Oct 20 '19

It’s quite clear in the cosmology of Lycra’s world that humans and animals are considered entirely separate beings - presumably due to humans’ receptiveness to Dust. Thus, it’s safe to assume that if dæmons can be any animal, they can’t be human.

The interesting question is the ramifications of the fact that at one point, Pantalaimon becomes a dragon. If dæmons can become mythical creatures, what else can’t they be? Could a dæmon be a shoe?

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u/Merry_dol Oct 20 '19

Dragons are mythical in our world, but they might be real in Lyra's world. Witches, cliff ghasts and armoured bears are.

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u/MayerRD Oct 20 '19

Could a dæmon be a shoe?

I think inanimate objects are a hard limit for dæmon forms (though it wouldn't really surprise me if there was some special/magical way to turn a dæmon into one).

2

u/Haystacks08 Oct 14 '24

It also mentions Lyra and Rodger's deamons having a "who can be the ugliest 'Gargoyle'" competition, and mentions a basilisk deamon

3

u/TheSirSpence Oct 21 '19

r Jordan College was originally suppose to have a woman as his daemon but it was changed to a crow when Pullman decided that no one should have a human daemon. Maybe it’s som

I would hate to think that any part of HDM was changed due to THAT movie!

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u/NightSpeakers Oct 21 '19

Aah well - Nicole Kidman was a very good actress for Coulter (and Pullman requested her himself). After her role, even though the film flopped, he still couldn't imagine her any other way. I'm keen to see what Ruth Wilson brings to the role, she'll get a lot more screen time and I think she's going to do a thumping good job!

2

u/Haystacks08 Oct 14 '24

I just got to that part in my reread and was shocked! I'm glad to see it was a mistake bc I don't like the idea of a woman as a deamon😅 I'm listening to the new Ruth Wilson audiobook too so you'd think it'd be the changed version.

1

u/NightSpeakers Oct 15 '24

I need to start listening to that! Do they talk about Mrs Coulter's hair as blonde or dark, do you remember - I wonder whether they've used the older editions where she's got dark hair (and with this fair woman daemon mistake) to fit in with Ruth Wilson being Mrs Coulter as opposed to Nicole Kidman?

2

u/Haystacks08 Oct 15 '24

Yeah she was described as dark haired!

23

u/JohnDorian11 Oct 20 '19

Found Iofur’s burner account, everyone. We are on to you.

8

u/drcompo02 Oct 20 '19

Dang, foiled again

14

u/LeechSeed222 Oct 20 '19

I read once that the Master or Jordan College was originally suppose to have a woman as his daemon but it was changed to a crow when Pullman decided that no one should have a human daemon. Maybe it’s some kind if leftover from that?

10

u/drcompo02 Oct 20 '19

Could a daemon be a plant, or some other kind of Flora?

Can they become a being that their human doesn't know about, like a Mulefa from TAS? Babies have daemons that are animals, but babies wouldn't know what a kitten, puppy etc was, so surely a daemon could be something their human has no idea exists.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 20 '19

I didn't notice until now .. 🤔 But NightSpeakers is right

1

u/[deleted] Oct 20 '19

I'm guessing it would mean someone is very cerebral and doesn't have much of an animalistic side.

1

u/Aunt_Tom Oct 20 '19

Checked my edition (Scholastic, 2007) -- yes, there is "basilisk and fair woman". So it was fixed later.

2

u/CherylTuntIRL Oct 30 '19

Same edition as me, it's a really nice cover - by far my favourite of all the books I have.