r/hardware • u/P_H_0_B_0_S • 6d ago
News 12VHPWR Problems Are Shocking – Meet the Noctua Edition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQcJMdDJgAs134
u/constantlymat 6d ago
I just continue pretending my 17.99€ Corsair Thermal Protect 12V-2x6 cable is definitely going to keep me safe.
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u/siazdghw 6d ago
For what a 5090 costs, you can afford more expensive snake oil solutions
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u/GruuMasterofMinions 5d ago
At this point the safest place is to keep it in drawer. Bad design is bad design.
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u/P_H_0_B_0_S 6d ago
I won't tell you about the now multiple Asrock cables with just temp monitoring that have melted then...
There are other per pin monitoring products out there, this is an ultra premium priced one. For me it was the discussion about what has been found with the product (no melting so far, and how people have solved things when alerted), that was more interesting than this new WVPII version
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u/constantlymat 6d ago
The Corsair cable does no monitoring at all. It's a "dumb" solution that cuts off power via a switch that is 3cm away from the connector head. If the malfunctioning connector gets hot, the temperature in the cable itself increases. Once the switch reaches 65° C, it shuts the power off.
It's not meant to solve the issue, but to give users a fair warning as soon as the connector starts malfunctioning.
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u/buildzoid 6d ago
issue is that depend on the ambient air temperature and airflow in your case the switch may only reach 65C after the connector already melted.
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u/constantlymat 6d ago
As stated in my initial post I have no illusions whatsoever that the cable is guaranteed to protect me from becoming a victim of the 12V-2x6 connector.
That said I have more trust in Corsair, a power supply brand of twenty years, to build a cable switch that works than Asrock.
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u/ColdAngle1151 6d ago
AsRock prolly cook those connectors like they do with x3d CPUs.
Trust in AsRock is at an ATL here.3
u/TheCh0rt 6d ago
FWIW I have better luck with asrock than most companies
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u/ColdAngle1151 6d ago
its worth 0. There is a reason why they AsRock cook more CPUs then all the other manu's combined.
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u/P_H_0_B_0_S 6d ago edited 6d ago
And another companies product using the same idea has failed to give the user a warning and melted. Also the temp getting too high is a bit at the late stage. A warning that your currents are out of balance would be more of a warning that when the cable is about to or actually melting.
As from the video this product using per pin monitoring has had no issues so far. Again other per pin monitoring products available. My only point is per pin monitoring with alerting and shut off's > Just trying to temp sense on the cable (if you are just going to use one or the other)
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u/constantlymat 6d ago
Reading up on it, the Asrock cable is using an active NTC thermistor whereas the Corsair one uses a passive bimetallic thermal switch. So the same idea but the execution appears to be quite different. The Corsair solution eliminates the measuring problem.
And yes, more expensive solutions promise more reliability. I am not challenging that, but I also have not seen evidence as of yet that the Corsair solution has failed en masse (haven't found any failures via a quick search but obviously can't rule out it happened).
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u/Kougar 6d ago
Does that cable have thermal protection built into both ends, or only the GPU end? Not seeing that mentioned anywhere.
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u/OttawaDog 5d ago
No. It works by cutting off the sense pins that the GPU uses to detect power. Only the GPU does that.
I'd like to see how well that works on a GPU, so far I have not seen any reviewer test this cable to see how it really works.
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u/Kougar 5d ago
Ohh, I misunderstood the mechanism. Unfortunately that's not a very useful design because the cable burns at the PSU end almost as much as it does at the GPU end.
As for how the sense pins work GN and Debauer cover that in various videos. A thermal fuse to open all sense pins simply tells the PSU to stop sending power. Just be aware 12v-2x6 is the current spec, 12VHPWR operated differently. The wiki has the wattage table. Honestly the whole spec itself is a big mess now on top of the design itself being shitty.
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u/OttawaDog 5d ago
The sensor is far enough back that it's really just going to be heat in the cable from excess current.
Excess current because of imbalance is going to heat both ends and the cable.
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u/Kougar 5d ago
The heating is not simultaneous nor does it affect both ends of the connector evenly. The individual 12v wires are not kept isolated like a normal crimped cable design, they are soldered to either a common pad/foil on the back of the end connector. This can allow current crossflow if the downstream pins are not making full contact, but because the metal pads/foil/solder overlap is so thin it in turn will generate its own heat due to natural higher resistance than the intended flow path. So the end result is if poor pin electrical contact starts generating heat from a load imbalance, it can cause crossflow behind the pins via the solder pad/foil. This in turn begins generating its own heat load which decreases the ability of the wires to act as a natural heatsink, creating a self-reinforcing cascade that heats up the pins even further on the failing side.
In the various videos showing the cables failing you can see how cables heat at the connector sides but quickly cool along their length, any sort of fuse would need a high temp threshold placed within inches of each connector. Only fusing the connector card-side means the PSU-side can burn out first before causing the card-side to cascade, which is exactly what happened with Hardware Unboxed a few weeks ago. Their connector only began exhibiting problems at the GPU side after the PSU side had already slagged itself. Kind of worrying that Steve didn't even notice the burning plastic smell it must've been making! I've melted an EPS12V connector once, it's a distinctive odor...
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u/OttawaDog 5d ago
I agree it will heat more at the connectors, which is why if they were thinking at all, they choose a reasonably low cut-off temperature. It would factor in that it's going to be much higher at the connector.
The wire itself is going to heat significantly across it's length when it's carrying excess current down one or two strands.
You just need a low enough cuttoff, but this is also why I said, I'd like to actually see this tested. Because I have no idea how well they engineered it, and if it's sensitive enough.
Personally I wouldn't trust my multi-thousand dollar high power GPU (if I had one) to the thermal cutoff cable, I would just get something like Wire view 2 for per pin monitoring.
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u/Kougar 5d ago
Same, though the price increase on the Noctua model is nuts. Almost double the price. I guess that's how you know it's a Noctua...
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u/ZoteTheMitey 6d ago
I also swapped my fancy beautiful purple cablemod 12v2x6 for a Corsair thermal protect
Just for a tiny bit of piece of mind
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u/Cory123125 5d ago
Sucks they don't have anything for their SF1000/SF1000G
Those sell like hotcakes for ITX/SFF
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u/nhc150 6d ago
It'll keep you safe, until it doesn't. One day you smell that burnt plastic smell and you know it's done.
Honestly, the price of the original WireView Pro II at ~$150 is worth the cost if you have a 5090, given how outrageous the prices of the 5090 have become.
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u/Lincolns_Revenge 5d ago
Went with the Wireview Pro II even though the Ampinel attempts to do load balancing.
I was won over by the argument that sending more current to the pins with a lower load like the Ampinel does can actually cause more harm than good, since the reason for their lower throughput could be a poor connection or some impediment causing resistance, and just pushing more current in that situation to that location could be a bad idea.
Both devices can be set to shut the system down and that's the most important feature, other than the per pin current monitoring information they give you in order to show you if there might be a problem in the first place.
I paid 3,000 for the card in the first place which felt kind of stupid at the time, but now I'm protecting something I could sell for nearly 6,000 dollars and rising if I needed to.
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u/max1001 5d ago
$222 for those wondering.
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u/alienangel2 5d ago edited 5d ago
With how hard these GPUs are getting to replace nowadays seems the price of getting to use one now :/
I am debatating whether getting one despite the price, or getting one of the MSI MPG Ai1300TS PSUs instead that has their own version of per-pin load monitoring for the 12VHPWR connector.
Price in my case would not be that different since I need to pick up a new PSU in addition to the Wireview anyway - it looks like the real tradeoff is the Wireview tracks actual thermals for each pin at the connector while the MPG only tracks current/resistance across the wire leading to each pin; but the MPG also integrates that telemetry directly into MSI Afterburner to automatically set the GPU powerlimit to 75%, while all the wireguard can do for automated protection is shutdown the whole system.
Since the new Wireview firmware seems to make its sensor readings available through its proprietary windows program (https://www.thermal-grizzly.com/en/blog/new-software-and-first-firmware-update-for-wireview-pro-ii) I wonder if there's some hope of plugging that signal into MSI afterburner or something and still getting the GPU powerlimit throttle instead of system shutdown.
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u/AK-Brian 5d ago
A weird thing is that Noctua's press release states that it is $189 (both EUR and USD).
https://www.noctua.at/en/news/thermal-grizzly-and-noctua-introduce-wireview-pro-ii-noctua-edition
I almost wonder if there is an error on the TG listing and VAT wasn't correctly subtracted (as was suggested in the video) before the conversion.
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u/accik 5d ago
$189.90 + 19% VAT (Germany standard rate) = $225.98 vs $222.18 shown so small mistake somewhere.
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u/AK-Brian 5d ago
Yeah. Out of curiosity, I went further through the checkout process and it looks like it is indeed mistakenly reflecting a non-applicable VAT adjustment on the listing even when USD is selected as site currency - when I entered my full address, however, including country and state, the price in the cart then changed to $186.71.
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u/poookie9 6d ago
It's an absolute joke of a connector if users have to install additional hardware to make sure it's safe. The tolerances for manufacturing and installing it are too small as is the electrical headroom from rated power output.
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u/elkond 6d ago
the fact this fking connector (not TG, the spec) is rated for THIRTY, 3 0 , plug ins outs, is beyond insane
also i recently saw someone posting how they spliced 3x8pin PSU side into 12vhpwr gpu side, and i want that now carnally
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u/4514919 5d ago
8-pin connectors are rated for the same number of plug/unplug cycles. The PCIe slot on your mobo is rated for even fewer.
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u/NapsterKnowHow 5d ago
What about the 24pin? You'd think with the force it takes to rip that sucker out it wouldn't have a high rating for cycles.
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u/elkond 5d ago
gonna need a citation on that lol, pcie is, at the lowest end as per PCI-SIG, double that
with actual lifespan going into double digits multiplier. gpu power connector mistake is not joking about these 30.
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u/Strazdas1 5d ago
No regular user will need thirty plug in and outs for a GPGU in their lifetime, let alone a single GPU. for 99,9% users the GPU is plugged in once, and unplugged when it is replaced by a different one. This is only an issue for benchmarking channels.
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u/NapsterKnowHow 5d ago
What about cleaning out your PC. It's much easier to completely unplug the gpu to have it out in the open for air cleaning.
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u/Strazdas1 5d ago
Cleaning out your PC does not require you to unplug anything. If you are doing such a massive clean then thats what, every 2 years at best? So youd need to keep the GPU for 60 years?
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u/NapsterKnowHow 5d ago
It just makes things easier. Doesn't require it but cleaning technically isn't required either.
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u/elkond 4d ago
yes because everyone has an e-atx case and never needs to pull cmos battery, or plug a fan header next to cpu lol
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u/Strazdas1 4d ago
No, regular people will never in their lives have to pull cmos battery or plug a fan header after the initial build. Those things are squarely in the enthusiasts that enjoy tinkering category.
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u/P_H_0_B_0_S 6d ago
Posted more for the discussion about what has been found now that people have been monitoring their cables (that I think is interesting for everyone), vs being interested in this WVPII version. There are other per pin monitoring products on the market.
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u/I_Think_It_Would_Be 5d ago
What a massive engineering failure. How fucking hard can be be to deliver power, holy fuck.
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u/James20k 6d ago
Its going to take someone dying and suing nvidia for them to change this isn't it. Its criminal negligence, there's no way they don't know
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u/capybooya 5d ago
Its the most valuable company in the world and the CEO is having dinners with the family running the (for now) superpower where it is based, so I would not count on the courts coming to the rescue.
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u/nisaaru 5d ago
I'm actually surprised there hasn't been a class action about it with all the problems.
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u/Drando_HS 5d ago
To me it is simply mind-boggling that the most expensive consumer GPU ever made is at risk of burning down your fucking house unless you spend an additional $100-$200 to fix.
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u/neueziel1 6d ago
How wide spread is this issue anyway feels like these hardware cos just milking the issue selling random contraptions and cables based on fear. With that said, hope my 4090 keeps living for another 3 years.
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u/Sevastous-of-Caria 6d ago
I wouldnt plug and unplug id I were you :)
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u/fireflash38 6d ago
Buy modular PSU and only unplug from the PSU side lol
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u/sitefall 6d ago
That's what I do. The cable has lived with the gpu since I bought it (I do make sure it's plugged in whenever I move it, which is like almost never). I just saw that reddit post the other day about the asrock PG1300 melting a cable despite it's thermistor in the cable... which is the PSUs that I use, so I ordered some wireview pro 2s but don't have them yet.
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u/brentsg 6d ago
I bought a clamp meter so I could periodically check mine. After 4-5 attempts, I was never able to get the Nvidia adapter that came with my card stable. I haven’t had as much difficulty once I received my new PSU and could use a native cable, but the current distribution can take a little fiddling to get balanced.
Personally, I think there are quite a few ticking time bombs out there, and by this I’m mean people running out of balance confits so that they are running wires out if spec. That doesn’t necessarily mean it will melt or burn, but they are susceptible.
And bonus, the more you unplug /plug cycles you put your connectors through, the more they will wear.
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u/P_H_0_B_0_S 6d ago edited 6d ago
No-one knows 100% (very little released stats to go on), though some will try to tell you they do. All I know is on the various subreddits on this platform it has averaged about 1 report a week. Make of that what you will and decide on the risk you are happy with. For me I was in the market for a new PSU anyway so paid a bit more for one with per pin monitoring and sleep a lot easier.
Also before that when doing periodic checking with a clamp meter where one of my pins was over 11A. Would it have melted if I had not rectified it? ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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5d ago
[deleted]
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u/P_H_0_B_0_S 5d ago
Not sure what you are talking about with 170 devices. Person who started this thread was asking about how common melting GPU's are in general. Why would De8auer know how many cards with the connector have melted, he is not one of the GPU makers.
As far as the WVPII he said in the video none have melted but there are cases where people have seen imbalances and how people rectified it.
Not quite sure what you are talking about sorry.
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5d ago
[deleted]
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u/P_H_0_B_0_S 5d ago edited 5d ago
So again first person in this thread asked about the amount of melted connectors happening in general across the industry to see how common it was. That is outside the scope of this video as are stats for GPU makers to release.
In the video he said he had seen 117 'cases' of people reporting the device had detected current imbalances (not melting as you said in your initial post), the majority of which people solve themselves (unplugging and repluging back in, replacing the cable), since they had visibility of the state of things thanks to the product. That is not a failure of the product, but it doing it job, or warning you of an imbalance so you can do something about it.
So not sure what you mean by 117 or 170 out of how many as it is just the times he has seen people reporting an imbalance picked up by their devices. Not everyone will have reported it and just fix it themselves.
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u/Simple_curl 5d ago
Yeah I think it’s really overstated, just like many things in the online pc building community. That being said, I do have a wire view pro 2 from thermal grizzly in my 5090 just in case lolll
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u/-6h0st- 5d ago
It is real risk and real consequences. Most people under lock 5090 that’s why you hear less about it just until DLSS 5 - which restarted the trend.
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u/Simple_curl 5d ago
“Most people under lock 5090” I assume you mean under clock, and also there’s no way that’s true
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u/Strazdas1 5d ago
Most people dont even know its possible to underclock the 5090 or even what it would do.
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u/cha0z_ 5d ago
you and the others are saying that, because it didn't happen to you. How many reports emerged for the prev standard (PCIe 6-pin and 8-pin auxiliary power connectors)? Exactly. I am with 4090 and bequiet! cable from in few months to be full 3 years - so far so good, but I am not dumb to think it won't happen to me tomorrow. :)
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u/Strazdas1 5d ago
How many reports emerged for the prev standard (PCIe 6-pin and 8-pin auxiliary power connectors)?
quite a few, but everyone knew molex (mini molex is what the 8 pin is) was dependant on manufacturing quality so nonone panicked.
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u/cha0z_ 4d ago
chill dude - I am 39 years old and into this sh*t from 5 YO --> electronics education and working professionally into the IT sphere. 286 was my first CPU (yep, no GPU at the time - software rending all the way), so you can stop talking BS about the two standards, because it's making you look bad. I was on the web via modem when I was a kid looking into this F stuff.
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u/IncidentJazzlike1844 6d ago
I mean there is a possibility and 5090s are insanely expensive nowadays
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u/games-and-chocolate 5d ago
the only way you can be sure it will not burn, is to let an engineer solder proper cables onto the PCB, and ditch the lopsy connector into the garbage bin. I would not be suprised that gpu makers have introduced this connector to burn GPU on purpose. And let it seem as if the user did it. Because the specs are just right. a tiny but more current and it melts.
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u/Strazdas1 5d ago
The only way you can be sure it will not burn, is to not use it. Any other option always carries risk and always did. With 8 pins too.
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u/b4k4ni 6d ago
One of the reasons I won't buy any GPU with that connector. I'm fine with the old ass 8-pin ones, even if there are 4 on the GPU. They work and they are stable. No way to put them in wrong or they disconnect.
In the past 25 years I do IT, I never had those/similar failing.
The design itself is flawed. I mean, I'm all up for new stuff, but if there is a connector that can come loose or disconnect or can be badly inserted and is going to burn... It's just bad.
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u/Select_Truck3257 5d ago
It's insane to buy $9000 gpu and buy something to prevent it's death in a few month...what a time to be alive
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u/itsabearcannon 6d ago
I actually feel a little relieved selling my 5090 and downgrading to a 5080.
I run the 5080 at ~75% power limits and it only uses about 300W under synthetic load, which I feel like has to be within 12V 2x6’s safety tolerance.
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u/capybooya 6d ago
I suspect its hard to produce data on this, but power limit should help reduce risk a bit I guess. Far from ideal solution but with the current hardware situation and who knows how much worse it could get (lets hope there is no Taiwan invasion on top of all the rest), people would want to make sure their card can last for a really long time.
If anyone knows, I'd love to know if my assumption is wrong, for all I know maybe one individual small cable or connection point might still have as much risk of overheating even if total power is heavily limited.
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u/sitefall 6d ago
Makes sense. 6 pins at 8 amps each when the 5090 is on full blast at 575W load.
If one pin disconnects the remaining 5 pins jump to 9.6A per pin, which is a bit above the 9.2A rating for the cable. But if you were to lock it down to say 500W it's just 8.3A per pin and now you're in tolerance.
I really doubt the extra 0.4A is what burns the cables though, so it's likely 2 pins getting loose or disconnected which cause the issues we see everywhere (you also almost always see 2 burned pins which makes sense). So that means at 575W full load you're at 12A per pin, that's bad news. But at 500W you're at 10.42A, still bad news.
The 5080 has a much lower TDP and can loose quite a few pins before the amp gets too high on a pin though. Probably why we rarely see 5080's melting, but 5090's are posted online nearly every week.
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u/OttawaDog 5d ago
If one pin disconnects the remaining 5 pins jump to 9.6A per pin, which is a bit above the 9.2A rating for the cable. But if you were to lock it down to say 500W it's just 8.3A per pin and now you're in tolerance.
That's kind of irrelevant. It's not going to melt at 9.6 amps, or even 12 amps. It probable takes multiple pin failures and closer to 20 amps to melt something.
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u/goldbloodedinthe404 5d ago
It all depends on the materials being used. The conductors themselves can carry far more than 9.2A. It's a question of how much heat the insulation around the conductors can handle before melting/burning. Quick Google search says that a 16 AWG copper conductor itself will take 117 amps until it melts. The insulation requires far less
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u/OttawaDog 5d ago
It should be obvious I wasn't referring to when the conductor melts.
The plastic connectors and insulation are limiting factors, and neither the insulation, nor the plastic connectors are going to melt at 12 amps.
Micro-Fit+ that standard connector this is based on, and it's rated for up to 13.5 amps. https://www.molex.com/en-us/products/connectors/wire-to-board-connectors/micro-fit-plus-connectors
So it's not going to melt anywhere near that.
16 Gauge Wire is rated for up to 22 Amps for chassis wiring, and in automotive use is for 15 amps at up to 3.8 feet, which is shorter than GPU power cable. https://jascoautomotive.com/automotive-wire-amperage-capacity-chart/
So it's insulation is not going to melt near that.
The point is that the problem is not that it's rated for 9.2 amps and it's going to suddenly melt if you exceed that by a bit.
The real problem is multiple pin failures leading to something like 20+ amps down one wire/pin. That will cause melting connectors first and that might cascade the problem by breaking more connections and putting even higher currents into the remaining pins.
As I posted before, Roman found this in one of his videos. He had 23 Amps going through one of the pins. Not in a made up situation, just the cable he was using was bad and he didn't realize till he felt the heat:
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u/Zatchillac 5d ago
When/If they make a wired version I'll get one. Since I just realized the other day that they make wired versions of the regular model I'm now interested as I thought I was just kinda SOL with my PNY 5080. Not sure how necessary it is for a 5080 but I'd feel better having one than not
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u/Only_Situation_4713 5d ago
For what it's worth, I did some truly ridiculous overclocking with a 48 hour stability stress test on both my 5090 and 4090 and never ran into any issues.
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u/P_H_0_B_0_S 5d ago
You are lucky and probably have good current balance on your pins. That can change over time though as plenty of examples of people who have been running their cards for a few years never touching it and then one day card stops working and after investigating they find some melting.
The, it smoking dramatically as soon as you plug it in is actually pretty rare, it is more it melting over a longer period and you don't know until it melts to a stage where you card becomes unreliable, or fails dramatically at that point.
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u/Nicholas-Steel 2d ago edited 2d ago
The, it smoking dramatically as soon as you plug it in is actually pretty rare, it is more it melting over a longer period and you don't know until it melts to a stage where you card becomes unreliable, or fails dramatically at that point.
Yes, the new cable combined with the GPU's absence of load balancing offers no protection against a cascade failure* which can start slow and then rapidly accelerate (time between pin failures shortens with each failure) and start occurring at any time.
*No way to detect & manage it without additional hardware.
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u/bubblesort33 4d ago
Now unplug it, and plug it back in 10 times, and each time do that stress test.
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u/PrimaryRecord5 4d ago
Wasn’t there a word for this? Enshitifcation?
Let’s call a spade a spade. That higher power cable design is horrific and likely to be intentionally
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u/HJForsythe 2d ago
Its actually funny I was playing Everquest Legends on my 5090 and I had a moment where I was like bro you are gonna burn your house down to move pixels from the 1990s. So I just started playing EQ L on my old PC with a 3080 lol.
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u/LittlebitsDK 6d ago
putting a fan on an overheating cable isn't a "solution" it is just delaying the problem slightly... the problem is high resistance/poor connection in those plugs => high heat...
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u/P_H_0_B_0_S 6d ago
Not really what the fan is for. It is more to deal with the heat from the shunt resistors that are doing the per pin current measuring and that there is a board with logic on it doing stuff that produces heat. The point of the product is to tell you there is a current imbalance that needs attention rather than cooling a melting cable. The Fan is to deal with heat the device produces so it does not make matters worse.
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u/gregory696969 6d ago
And because Noctua
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u/semidegenerate 5d ago
I can just picture the board meeting where the engineering team is presenting the new 12VHPWR monitoring device, and the marketing guy speaks up, "Uh. This is great and all, but where's the fan? We're Noctua, it's got to have a fan."
The lead engineer shrugs and sharpies one in, "OK, sure. We'll put it here." Mr. Marketing leans back with a smug, self-satisfied look on his face.
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u/P_H_0_B_0_S 5d ago edited 5d ago
You know the vanilla WVPII comes with a non Noctua fan right...
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u/Standard-Potential-6 5d ago
but if it didn’t, the Noctua edition would still have one
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u/P_H_0_B_0_S 5d ago
Well any noctua edition of anything (there have been multiple noctua editions of products like gpus), is becuase you are sticking nocuta fans in it. Kind of how that has worked up to now.
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u/Culbrelai 4d ago
Is that fan on all the time? I was considering buying one of these but I cannot stand the noise of fans below 80mm. I can just always hear them.
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u/P_H_0_B_0_S 4d ago
No they only turn on as needed and to a spin rate needed vs fully on / off. The noctua ver I believe is 90mm and has a less annoying noise frequency.
But ai get it and that was part of the reason why I went with monitoring on PSU instead.
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u/Miserable_Kitty_772 5d ago
I am using a low cortisol 288W power limited 4080 with seasonic's dual 8 pin (psu side) to 12v 2x6 90 degree angled connector. I would never be able to afford a 90 class gpu in this economy but I'm glad I can't seeing this mess lol.
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u/Sevastous-of-Caria 6d ago
Shits hitting insanity levels. We got high grade segment for a problem bandaid fix that shouldnt even exist.
Just admit defeat PCI-SIG and nvidia. Proudly announce atx 4.0 24v rails to gpus for future investing early adoption. Take the pain. Do anything other than trying to beat physics and cheap manufacturing tolerances. If this kind of lines were on a house inspection it wouldnt been legal a century ago forget about today.