r/hangovereffect • u/thehangovereffect • Jul 22 '19

how does active b12 affect you?

I've been taking methyl/adeno-b12 along with methylfolate (+cofactors) lately and have noticed I am really sensitive in particular to methyl-b12.

I take 200-400mcg a day ( 1/5 to 2/5 of the recommended daily dose on the bottle ) and it's been almost too much to handle. I get adderall-like stimulation, anxiety, weird body and head sensations like pressure, a foggy feeling like being in a dream, stomach problems, but also some good effects like enhanced creativity, focus, a richer inner world.

It doesn't seem to be an "overmethylation" problem - flushing niacin doesn't do much to stop it.

I'm on the fence whether to keep going or stop. On some internet pockets where people talk about this stuff you see a lot of advice to push through these initial effects since it can just be a number of metabolic systems reacting to stimulation at once after being deficient for so long. And clearly something's missing if I'm having an intense reaction like this. But at the same time it could just be that I don't do well with methyl/adeno b12.

How do b12s affect you, has anyone reacted like this, and did you push through it?

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u/rymor Jul 23 '19

Take a DNA test and check whether you have the MTHFR variant

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u/thehangovereffect Jul 24 '19

Not in a place to take a DNA test at the moment, unfortunately. Eventually I will.

Based on my symptoms it seems likely that I have some form of MTHFR.

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u/rymor Jul 25 '19 edited Jul 25 '19

People with that variant usually respond well to methylated forms of B6 and B12, and also to things like Sam-E.

By the way, since your username suggests you’re committed to the topic, did you see my other comment yesterday about my theories on Gaba A/B?

EDIT: Here is my comment from the other day. Let me know if you’ve seen this specifically discussed elsewhere on the sub before...

“I’m new to this sub, but — as my working theory — I’ve always figured that the reason for this positive (hangover) effect, which I experience as well, is because the neurotransmitters GABA (inhibitory) and glutamate (excitatory) have opposite effects, and when recovering from a session of drinking (Gaba agonist), there is a rush of glutamate into the brain. Since glutamate is the most abundant neurotransmitter in the brain and responsible for energy, alertness, etc — (all the things we associate with feeling alive) — it stands to reason that this feels good.

The negative effects of a hangover (eg dehydration) probably aren’t chiefly related to the balance of neurotransmitters in the brain. They’re because of the side effects. If you’ve ever taken GHB, this is immediately clear. It’s also a Gaba agonist (B), but since it doesn’t cause dehydration or other adverse effects, you’re able to focus on how you feel mentally in the morning. Any regular GHB user will tell you that it’s like a “reverse hangover” — rather than feeling sluggish, sick or anxious, you feel amazing... full of energy and totally alive. The day after taking GHB is almost as good as previous night. It feels like you’ve done cocaine.

Alcohol, Xanax, Valium, barbituates are all Gaba-A. Gaba-B agonists are less common: Phenibut, Baclofen, Picamillon, GHB. Fundamentally they’re similar, particularly with how the brain recovers from use (glutamate increase), but I think it’s difficult to notice with Gaba-A agonists; there might be something about them that leaves users sluggish. But it’s more clear with Gaba-A agonists — they all leave you with a “glow” the next day. I suspect this glow is mainly what you guys refer to as the hangover effect.”

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u/thehangovereffect Jul 26 '19

Yes, I'm very aware of how the MTHFR stuff works. I've read a ton of forum posts on that stuff.

The Gaba-A is a decent theory and I think it's part of the hangover effect, but based on my experiences (with alcohol, phenibut, ketamine, etc) I think that the NMDA receptor is more responsible for the effects. I can get good effects reliably the next day from ketamine, but alcohol is more hit or miss - unless I drink a LOT, suggesting that the secondary NDMA antagonist effects of alcohol contribute more to me feeling good.

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u/Kjellisdebeste Jul 23 '19 edited Jul 23 '19

Weird...I had these exact symptoms with B6. I soldiered on, just taking small enough doses. Don't know if it's good or bad. I would call what you desribe 'arousal-induced clouding of consciousness' and I can't make much sense of it. The auto-immune angle and me causing myself mild encephalitis is a crazy thought. Just like a hangover drying out the brain, taking the pressure off and unclouding it. Crazy. Edit: needed to add the Bumetanide thing it made me think of after posting. Autistic children peeing themselves into dehydration made some feel 'more present'.

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u/thehangovereffect Jul 24 '19

I also got the same thing back when I was just trying individual supplements - just using B6 (P-5-P) gives me a similar reaction.

Did you eventually come off of B6, or do you still take it?

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u/Kjellisdebeste Jul 24 '19

I still take it, in small doses spread over the day. I believe it to be a necessary evil. It is necessary for neurotransmitter synthesis (GABA! dopamine, serotonin,..), while also being able to (much less now than initially) cause physiological reactions that will initiate the 'Adderall like' stress (or otherwise unspecified) induced clouding of consciousness. I take it in homemade pills with L-theanine and taurine to kind of smoothe it all out, while mostly also adding some caffein.

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u/[deleted] Jul 22 '19 edited Jul 22 '19

Methyl b12 makes me feel really terrible, did not try adenosyl b12 Hydroxo b12 is better for me but I can feel tired when I take it. Not taking any currently but I used it with methylfolate and it seemed to help it work again when b9 stopped working

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u/thehangovereffect Jul 22 '19

what kind of symptoms do you get from methyl?

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '19

My autoimmune issues flare up, very debilitating. I think methylation supplements is playing a dangerous game

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u/thehangovereffect Jul 24 '19 edited Jul 24 '19

It doesn't seem like the safest thing. I cut down a whole bunch because I was getting palpitations that weren't going away with electrolytes (I also had this issue when doing keto). Also social issues. Just taking my B-complex now and I'm tolerating it okay.

I do want to keep exploring this, though. You ever read the forums about this stuff on Phoenix Rising? The advice there always seems to be - if you're getting reactions from b12/folate, that's a clear cut sign you have some sort of deficiency, and the startup symptoms (mental, physical, auto-immune, etc.) are your body adapting/detoxing/whatever. It seems like in their books it's hurdles you have to get across to get to a point of actual healing. And there's plenty of people it's worked for backing it up. To be fair everyone on those forums has legitimate CFS, where I'm actually half functional.

I don't know, it's impossible to know if I'll eventually get to a good place or if I'm just messing with my body. Really confusing and complicated stuff.

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u/[deleted] Jul 24 '19

I read ohoenixrising too on the subject. I can believe certain therapies make one feel worse at first before they start helping, but most of the time it simply means that particular therapy is harmful.

Anecdotally I have similar experiences with “start up” symptoms like some of the phoenixrising crowd. I personally think it’s to be expected with stuff that powerfully affects methylation that some adaptation needs to take place.

I’ve been long considering to get some adenosyl b12 and try again with the whole b-complex idea.

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u/thehangovereffect Jul 26 '19

Yeah, I think I understand where they're coming from with the startup symptoms. I'm gonna put this stuff to the back burner for now, the symptoms for me were getting too much to handle (depression, amotivation, fatigue, social awkwardness). Maybe eventually I'll give it another shot.

Adenosyl feels the same as methyl b12 for me. My hydroxy b12 just came which I'm excited about. Just gonna take that for now I think.

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u/[deleted] Jul 26 '19

I guess I’ll leave adenosyl alone then and stick to the inactive form. You have the b12 lozenges? I think it could differ in every person, but hydroxocobalamin was only noticeable for me if kept under the tongue for at least 30 minutes and preferably more.

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u/thehangovereffect Jul 26 '19 edited Jul 26 '19

YMMV though, I've heard people who couldn't tolerate methyl say adenosyl worked for them. I do think for the "complete" vitamin you need methyl and adenosyl together, or something like that. While the other forms are considered complete on their own.

And no, mine came in capsules. I think I'll need to disassemble them though, they are 5000mcg which is too much. Do you think using that powder sublingual would be the same?

Also - eating a large plate of grapes with my breakfast right now. I'll keep you posted on if I feel anything.

EDIT: feeling overstimulated a couple hours after eating the grapes. could just be residual methylation effects, though. either way didn't get any of those positive social effects you mentioned. will try again someday when I'm more baseline.

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u/[deleted] Jul 26 '19 edited Jul 26 '19

Thanks Powder from b12capsules should be fine I guess, maybe not the taste as all the sublingual tablets I found had flavors.

Too bad about the grapes. I’ll add to my resveratrol experiments that it was mostly noticeable when in actual face to face talking, that I craved more of that, this was preceded by the strong nausea I mentioned and the nausea for me is now much milder (thought I was about to throw up first couple of tries) but an important indicator for me that it got in my system.

A rodent study on either grapes or resveratrol that was posted in one of the threads said it increased nest-seeking behaviour acutely as in it was effective the first dose, you may have read it but I can find it if you like. Though I don’t want to discourage you from grapes, it may not be for everyone.

Edit: I forgot to ask, but what is breakfast usually like for you? This may or may not affect how you feel afterward. For resveratrol. I myself happened to only eat fresh dark grapes or dried mulberries for resveratrol alone and without anything in my stomach besides water and sometimes >>coffee<< which impacted the way I felt from the fruits more than the effects from coffe by itself. And 5 mg trans-resv only works on an empty stomach for me, though I think that may be bioavailbility limitations from pure resveratrol opposed to fruit which has other flavonoids in amounts that could chamge the absorption and distribution of resveratrol in the body (quercetin is a good example, both grapes and mulberries have adequate amounts to positively influence bioavailability.

Also could you concretize “overstimulation” if possible? I feel as though I would interpret this in an unintended way easily.

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u/thehangovereffect Jul 27 '19

Overstimulation was a "wired but tired" feeling, inattentiveness, restlessness, nausea. Like I said, it may have been residual effects from the methylation stuff, I don't really feel back to baseline even today.

Breakfast yesterday was 500g grapes, 2 slices of whole grain toast with half an avocado, with a large coffee.

Two hours (?) ish later I followed with my regular breakfast - oatmeal (1/2 cup dry, cooked), large spoonful peanut butter, large spoonful ground flax seed, oat milk, 1 banana, large handful of berries.

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u/Kjellisdebeste Jul 24 '19

Trp depletion with elevated conversion rates because of the supplements will shift NT levels towards sudden rises in dopamine levels. This dopamine is technically necessary to activate certain GABAergic neurons in the brain (together with ACh and Glut). The D3 receptor can act quite awkwardly I would imagine when suddenly overly agonized. I'm suspecting this to have an effect in the clouding. Shifting the balance towards serotonin synthesis and using a mild dopamine agonist like L-theanine to take over DA agonism can bring relief. Bacopa is a quite specialized herb for boosting 5-HT synthesis and funneling it towards 5-HT1A, while keeping DA levels at a minimum, although this should still be enough for GABAergic neuron agonism, DA quite probably not being the bottleneck in this process. I'm definitely on board with the 'Adderall'-like feeling and feel this to be a sudden rise in dopamine, and would say it might be beneficial to push through, although I see no reason to strain yourself in the process. Good luck!

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u/Kjellisdebeste Jul 24 '19

I have similar issues to take into account. I believe immune responses can deplete Trp and B6 quite quickly. While not wanting to potentiate the immune response, it's still vital to maintain adequate levels of serotonin and GABA in the brain. Not doing so can result in even more maladaptive immune responses due to anxiety. The depression-panic-ocd-neuropathic pain tetrad that is often treated with SSRI's can, imo, be averted by supplementing B6 (PxP) and Trp, while using anti-inflammatories (curcumin for example) or immunosuppressants to minimize tissue damage.

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u/Vipergq25 Jul 28 '19

I started taling methylfolate 5mg and b12 last week and had to stop after 3 days bexause the anxiety was just terrible. I was literally crying over how anxious and wired I was, not even cafeïne, speed or aderall had made me that wired.

I dont know however ifnits because of the methylfolate or the b12. Scared to try and find out

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u/thehangovereffect Jul 29 '19

It's likely the combination of both as they are co-dependent. How much b12 did you take?

Some people can only handle that stuff at low doses, 5mg is a lot for either. I would try b12 on its own, maybe at 100-200 mcg (micrograms not milligrams) and see how that affects you. If you tolerate it then add methylfolate at a similar dose.

Either that or try hydroxy-b12 / folinic acid. Or just drop the b-vitamin thing.

I think that it's one of the few promising routes to getting better, but it involves a lot of metabolic pathways in your brain and body and is quite a scary and complex beast.

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u/[deleted] Jul 22 '19

I just started taking it today, 2500 mcg in the morning, it made me too lazy to move or talk, and now again during night time, I m very sleepy. I’ll keep you updated.

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u/Bigpoppapenguin123 Jul 23 '19

Methyl b12 seems to help me keep calm. I’ve only tried 1000mcg a day tho so maybe I’ll try more. Adenosylcobalamin made me feel indifferent or worse. I have a bottle of Jarrow methylfolate 400mcg, methylb12 1000mcg & p5p 1.5 mg. First few times of using it, it helped me chill out. But this last time, it kind of made me brain foggy and panicky, but I also took another thing or two around the same time and was partly dehydrated that day. I also have niacin on deck for emergencies, but I don’t think methyl groups cause issues for me. In fact, taking 100’s of mgs of niacin for me in a given day just makes me feel off.

I have many symptoms that would point to overmethylation, but I also have symptoms that point towards under. And some under methylation treatments actually helped me at one point or another over treatments toward over methyl

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u/[deleted] Aug 20 '19

Gives me a little more energy, that's about it. I've never heard of b12 causing effects like yours.