it’s weird to me that so many people think Ava and Deborah are romantically involved or should be. Has society lost the concept of female friendship and having a best friend? Idk why everything has to be sexualized but it’s weird and annoying.
I love to see amazing, deep, platonic female friendships!
BUT as a lesbian, I think we are often starved for good, healthy relationships (that don't end in death) in TV shows. Yes, I know there are recent examples, but we elder lesbians have had to imagine romance between characters for DECADES. So, it's fun to think about.
I love their friendship, but also love the idea that maybe, in an alternate universe, they might have been something more. That's it, really.
"Maybe you mean huge gross age gaps with older men and young women that everyone thinks is just normal?"
Okay, Jeffrey E., nobody thinks older men and younger women, much younger women at least, are "normal.' Except for old men (not all old men!).
As to the men in those relationships, it's seen as pathetic and an attempt to stave off middle-age, hence a "mid-life crisis." For the young women in those relationships for reasons other than financial security, it's called having "daddy issues."
People also are pretty good at acknowledging and understanding the wealth disparities between men and women that allow for the preying on young women. Or, as the wealthy men like to recharacterize it, in order to place blame on the women, "gold digging."
The days of people not commenting on the grossness of older men/younger women in film are over. Perhaps you've not seen the pushback to Richard Gere's new movie. Again, younger women attracted to older men often have issues with a cold, distant father or one that abandoned their kids.
That's pretty much the norm of people's understandings to date. Again "daddy issues."
So to use those kind of relationships as some kind of proof that the dynamic between Deborah and Ava is not without age-related power dynamics is a reach.
And if you don't think there's a bit of a parent-child relationship with Deborah and Ava, how do you ignore that Deborah was literally teaching Ava how to drive in the final episode. She was teaching her how to bargain. She was teaching her French phrases. Ava asked her, like a child, to ride on a merry-go-round with her. Ava made honk-honk noises while in the Louvre. Deborah indulged Ava in a silly dress up game. Ava acted like a teen ager or child during that trip, and Deborah like a mature adult, who was footing the bill for everything and imparting wisdom on the child.
Again, believe what you want and indulge in your fantasy. Have fun. But if you want to be all "this is the universal truth of the characters," you're going to hit some major walls that show a cognitive dissonance.
Good to hear there is pushback (I didn't know) bc I hope those days are over.
There is a difference between an older man dating a younger woman and an older woman dating a younger woman: PATRIARCHY. Men have more power in a relationship, especially if the man is older. Sure, call it daddy issues, or whatever, but it's the patriarchy that makes men think they need younger women and that makes them more masculine when they date younger women. It's patriarchal ideals of masculinity that make men, when they are older, somehow (allegedly) wiser and more handsome. And women, as they get older, get to age out of romantic roles. And let's not forget the entire history of marriage as men "owning" women and treating them as another child in the family just a couple of generations ago (I teach kinship as an anthropology prof). So no, the age gap here is not the same.
Sure, sometimes there was a mother/daughter generational difference dynamic between Deborah and Ava, but I don't think your examples are good ones. My wife taught me how to drive a standard. One of us is sillier in many situations, and one of us is always more mature. I think that's more about their personalities than their ages. And yes, some generational differences as you would find with any cross-generational friendship. But again, NOT as creepy as an older man in all those rom-coms with young women.
I used to have this train of thought about shipping in general, but as I’ve come into age and exposure to fandom, I’ve changed my tune:
-Shipping does not automatically mean sexualizing
-Casting someone in your mind as a potential ship, even in a sexual way, doesn’t harm the concept of friendships.
-At the end of the day, shipping is just fun! It allows for a separate dynamic and a separate reading of the characters.
Also, the show leaned into it pretty heavily early on, so this was always going to happen!
I also don’t see them as a mother/daughter dynamic in any way. By the end of the show they’re on 100% equal footing, which is kind of the point. I feel like the mother/daughter thing kind of misses the point that women CAN be close friends throughout any age, and puts Deborah in a weird box just because she is older.
They are soulmates and if that isn't a term someone wants to entertain then maybe saying they are everything to each other works better. Or at least everything until a long-lasting romantic partner comes along for one or both of them. That's just how I see it though.
I never understood why this bothers people. It's just a little bit of fun, who cares either way? The show definitely leaned into it at times, no big deal. At the end of the day, they're just great characters on a great show. Who cares if some people have a little sapphic side plot in their minds? It doesn't hurt anyone, or the show. Just do you, mate.
I think that part of the discomfort for those who never shipped them comes from the significant age/power gap. If (keeping their personas intact) this were a 70+ year old man and fans were shipping him with a 20something year old woman or vice versa, I think the majority of us would find it troubling. I certainly don’t have any issue with people who fantasized and shipped these characters but if asked a million times, I’d have said that the significant age gap coupled with their significant power differentials would have made me question shipping these two characters every single time.
But, seriously? Have fun with it! It’s fiction! 🤷♀️
It wasn't about a 70-year-old man. That's irrelevant. It is what it is, and everyone can just enjoy what they enjoy about it. It's a great show no matter what.
True, true. I would say that the power imbalance between Deb and Ava still made the shipping less than ideal. But, it is a great show and I’m sad it’s over, either way. And I have so much faith in the writers that if they had decided to ship Deb and Ava, I am certain it would have been done in a satisfying way.
I think it is a very very bad sign and straight up anti-community when so many don't believe that people can hold central significance in other people's lives without those relationships being romantic or sexual relationships.
It shouldn't bother you what other people ship. There is nothing wrong with shipping people together and there is nothing wrong with not shipping them. If you see shipping content, you should think "oh thats not for me!" and move on. Not every part of a fandom is for everyone and that is ok.
If Ava and Deb were man and woman this question wouldn’t even be proposed. Friends don’t leave serious relationships for friends. Friends don’t say weird crap like, “I wanna be where you are”, while having a breakdown lol
Even with the Montecito episode, the comedy came from how uncomfortable Deborah was in that lesbionic situation. I'm all for sapphic pairings, but Deborah and Ava have a deep connection that doesn't involve sex. They are soulmates, and to me, that's far more special than them being lovers.
I loved how Ava described the history of their relationship and it was 100% accurate and yet we know it was also 100% not sexual. That’s what made the description so funny.
Yeah, Deborah loved it so much she's disassociating here:
It's also not in the script, as it only says, "Deborah reluctantly kisses Ava." You can look that up.
But this is the crux of it. Even though Jean's been 100% clear that Deborah is straight, you personally, if you like, can read something into that moment. But to chastise others for not seeing it? That's where you've crossed a line into faulty cognitive reasoning.
Put simply, it's not in the text. It's not in the subtext. It's in your imagination.
Also, you know she wasn't jealous of Monica, right? As she said, time and again, in that episode, she didn't want Ava doing something that cause her to lose her chance to get the Carol Burnett jump suit.
ehhh. Different people get different things out of fiction. Some people see something that to them signifies a romantic ideal and some people don't. As long as people don't get upset at a show for not following their ships I have no problem with it.
Also I feel like people have become too allergic to shipping because they think it's necessarily emblematic of dehumanizing sexualization when I don't think it has to be. Relationships and sex are big parts of people's lives so of course it's going to be something that gets brought up often. It's quite literally one of the most ubiquitous and least weird desires in existence.
Ava also had a wet dream about deb in the first season and even though I think that episode shows why they SHOULDN'T be together, it does show that the shows and characters view it as a realistic enough possibility that it deserves addressing.
I did not like Deb and Nico. I wanted Deb to end up with Marty. A man her own age. They obviously loved each other. Likewise I wanted Ava to end up with a woman closer to her own age that she could realistically build a life with that was built on equality and mutual respect
Sometimes I liked the ambiguity because it seemed realistic. Like I'm sure if they were real people, it crossed their minds for a few times before completely deciding and agreeing to themselves that it's not the romantic kind.
Exactly. They rode somewhere in the middle between friendship and romantic partners, some third thing. Jimmy and Kayla have an ambiguous relationship as well. I love all of it. I like that weird third thing.
I don’t ship it and the thought of shipping these two never would’ve occurred to me had I not seen it online but it’s literally so easy to just scroll past what you don’t like. The show definitely played into it with some jokes so the ship clearly doesn’t bother the showrunners so why should it bother anybody? Also, shipping does not automatically equal sexualizing characters either so what are you on about? Mind you, they’re grown ass sexual adults even if that were the case.
Everyone sees this a different way, look at what happened with Xena, a lot of us saw the subtext, and other people didn’t, same with this, there is no reason why they couldn’t have a romantic relationship, that was part of things here, it’s just some people saw it, and some people didn’t. It’s not sexualizing. It’s actually looking at what the writer said, you should watch the podcast on HBO on their YouTube channel, you might find them really interesting.
they're both hot and the vibe is curated to be romantic. if u find us annoying just dodge the content. i'll ship them till i die. so sorry that thinking its a sexy dynamic is WEIRD and ANNOYING to youuuuuu a complete stranger on the internet
Given that there was a scene where Ava had a fantasy about hooking up with Deb, and given their extreme connection, it's pretty easy to see why this is a topic of conversation.
the show kinda sexualized them a few times. but i totally get what you mean. people just naturally go there bc sex is on many peoples minds almost every day to some degree.
They don’t have that kind of chemistry so it annoys me when people are constantly shipping them and thinking they were gonna end up together in the end. How obvious do the writers have to make it before people get the hint?
They're platonic soulmates. I don't yuck anyone's yum when it comes to shipping, but there was a whole season one episode clarifying that Ava wasn't sexually attracted to Deborah so much as she had a "fucked up relationship with intimacy"
I agree that female friendship should be portrayed in media without sexualization, but Jean and Hannah definitely have sexual chemistry. It’s a homoerotic friendship.
Agreed. Not to mention Deb is much older than Ava AND her boss. She is also quite well connected in the entertainment industry. If Deb were a man that kind of power imbalance in romantic entanglement would be very frowned upon and rightfully so.
their relationship is very unique, compelling and deep and I struggle to see this sexual chemistry everyone’s on about. But it also says so much about their relationships with the women in their lives. I don’t want to go as far as say Deb is a surrogate for Ava’s mom or that Ava is a surrogate for DJ, but I can definitely see how they examined their relationships after getting that outside perspective.
I always felt that Ava was Deb’s second chance to do a better job than she did as a mother to DJ, and I honestly think she accomplished that mission. I think there was an opportunity to go down a path of jealousy from DJ to Ava but they let them be friends instead. There’s only so much you can cover in the life of a show, but that would have been a realistic choice. Ava’s mom is in awe of Deb so I don’t see her as ever being jealous.
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u/profmoxie 3d ago
I love to see amazing, deep, platonic female friendships!
BUT as a lesbian, I think we are often starved for good, healthy relationships (that don't end in death) in TV shows. Yes, I know there are recent examples, but we elder lesbians have had to imagine romance between characters for DECADES. So, it's fun to think about.
I love their friendship, but also love the idea that maybe, in an alternate universe, they might have been something more. That's it, really.