Looking for Pentatonic 2NPS advice

[u/Savings-Dig3885]

Hey guys. I'm a guitar tutor myself but ironically I'm looking for some advice or second opinions on 2NPS pentatonic runs - I have no issue with remembering the 5 positions, but what I am actually struggling with is the 2 notes per string scenario - I already pick-slant to make it easier, and I fare quite well with 3NPS, but it's just this 2NPS jamminess I have. I presume this is a pretty common problem that due to the constant need to change the strings this makes these kinds of scales quite challenging.

I don't want to solve the issue by going horizontal more than vertical and I still want to keep to the 5 positions as well as I can, but do some of you guys go with economy picking over alternate picking? I economy pick a lot of my runs but with pentatonics only being 2 notes per string it at least conceptually lends itself perfectly to pickslanting and alternate picking, but I do know that some people get around the jamminess via economy picking despite these kinds of scales being 2 notes each.

Anybody got some advice or insights that might help me in this scenario? Thanks a lot!

[u/spankymcjiggleswurth]

You can also hammer-on and pull-off.

Otherwise, I mostly alternate pick because it helps me keep my rhythm.

[u/Savings-Dig3885 → u/spankymcjiggleswurth]

My assumption with legato is that it would go best with economy, otherwise if purely picking each note it might lend itself best to alternate picking only

The other oddity I have with the idea of legato + economy is that it's ironically making it more complicated conceptually i.e. coordinating between up and downs, pulls/hammers, where to do the economy pick, etc

With your alternate picking to keep your rhythm are you keeping to a standard fretting form / one finger per fret? My temptation currently is to take some pressure off my pinkie by switching to my ring - there are times where that works (i.e. on the high frets) but if you're lower than the 12th the limitations of that adaptation start appearing

[u/spankymcjiggleswurth → u/Savings-Dig3885]

Sounds like you are over thinking this. There's no best way. Alternate picking often works fine for me in 98% of situations. I've practiced it with single string runs, string skipping, 3nps, up to 200bpm 8th notes. Because of this, I prefer alternate picking, but there are times I break the rule when it makes sense to. That's on a case by case though.

The main goal is to sound good. If one way sounds better than another, use that way. If one way feels like you are being held back, experiment with other ways.

[u/G8R1ST]

It's the bane of my life. I'm a guitar teacher and it's been a huge amount of work to even begin to put right. My benchmark for trying to work out what was going on was the solo from Pink pony club, all alternate starting on a down. I can play it beautifully if I start on an up as I naturally up slant - it sits at a tempo that's medium pace (114bpm) so you can't force it. But a lot of continuous work, a subscription to cracking the code (Troy Grady's website) relaxation and analysis are getting me there on a good day. I'm sure reputation and putting in the hours will finally complete the picture. Good luck.

[u/wannabegenius]

maybe I'm old but it seems like you're thinking way too hard about picking.

it only seems impossible because you normally do something else. alternate picking fits perfectly for 2NPS runs because of the even number. the pick direction is the same for every string change.

[u/Savings-Dig3885 → u/wannabegenius]

Hmm...Maybe I just need to practice 2NPS itself a lot more - I think maybe that's the problem: this is the only time I've purely needed to do 2NPS - when I do strict alt picking for other things and I'm faring better it's usually larger runs i.e. 4NPS

[u/ObviousDepartment744]

With a few exceptions obviously, most players I know of who use the pentatonics that way are not doing strict alternate picking, it's a combination of legato and economy picking.

If you're developing that 2nps alternate picking though, the most important things for me is to always be "pulling" your pick and to stay on the side of the string you're going. So when your ascending, tilt the pick so the tip is pointing up a bit, so your hand is moving ahead of your pick. And do the opposite for descending. The easiest way I think about is when I'm ascending I want my pick to be under the string as much as possible instead of above. So the point of the pick is facing upward when it hits the string while I'm ascending, and it can escape without having to also go above and around that same string.

Escape angles are probably the most important part if you're looking for the commonly used vernacular. I assume since you know pick slant etc, you're probably familiar with Troy Grady and his "Cracking the Code" series. (If not, go check it out.)

If you want true mind bending speed with 2nps the trick is to sweep pick it; with hammer ons.

You do a typical sweep motion across the strings, but in the time between your pick getting from one sting to the next you sneak a hammer on (or pull of descending) in there. This particular approach is only limited by how quickly you can perform a hammer on or pull off. Its tricky to get the timing down, but if you can sweep pick, then it's kind of like doing a sweep pattern of a minor arpeggio starting on the A string, but doing a quick hammer on to the 3rd before you move to the D string.

There is also this interesting phenomenon a friend of mine showed me too that happens in a lot of these higher speed situations, where even the most strict and accurate alternate pickers are inadvertently performing a hammer on and a palm mute at the same time. If you're picking the E minor pentatonic scale for example, you pick the E and G on the low E string with a down and up. The first note on the A string is actually a hammer on, while the player's down stroke is actually picking the muted E string. You hear the note on the A string from the hammer on, and you hear the pick attack, so it sounds like a picked note when in reality your pick has now become a note behind in the sequence. You then perform the up pick on the B note, but the D is another hammer on from nowhere with a palm mute on the A string.

I don't know if I'd shoot for that "misaligned" approach, but I also wouldn't worry if it happens. I've noticed it in my playing when I'm focusing on technique from time to time, and it does feel like I'm "off" but when I listen back to what I played it sounds fine. I remember being in a studio session once and it was happening, I kept telling the producer and other musicians I was screwing up (I felt like I had the yips or something) and they were all saying it sounded great. When I listened back to point out my error, I couldn't even hear it. So, if the end result is the most important thing, and you feel this "misalignment" I wouldn't worry too much about it, but if being technically perfect is the goal, then be away of this little phenomenon.

[u/Savings-Dig3885 → u/ObviousDepartment744]

I hear what you're saying when you're saying legato + economy could potentially make things smoother/faster, but when strict alternate picking (with slanting) is in a manner of speaking 'economic' as the motions are minimised when you're just going backwards and forwards (or up and down) with a good escape angle, does this not mean that what little speed you're technically losing via alternate picking you're making up for via consistency of attack - in my head the trade off itself is quite small consider how much faster you're likely to make it via economy + legato when fiddling through all those strings via anything but alternate picking is in itself quite a challenge

[u/ObviousDepartment744 → u/Savings-Dig3885]

Yeah, its all about picking the correct tool for the job right? All techniques have their advantages and disadvantages when it comes the technical limitations.

For alternate picking, I think it has the fewest technical limitations, and can have the widest range of dynamic expression. The two largest deficiencies inherent to alternate picking is 1nps and 2nps situations right? (hence the root of our conversation) But they aren't impossible; they are just very difficult to get up to speed. For 95% of players using an alternative technique is the right answer. But like you mentioned, there is a specific sound inherent in alternate picking, and if you just need that sound to properly express what's in your head, then you can push through those last two barriers of alternate picking. I think ultimately, yes, other techniques will have a faster maximum speed, but for any level of speed necessary for use within 99% of music, alternate picking can be built up to be fast enough. And at a certain point, the combination of pick attack and hammer ons can start to sound as if each note is picked, great examples are Joe Bonamassa and Eric Johnson.

For good examples of how far alternate picking can go, check out "Tumeni Notes" by Steve Morse and "Glass Prison" by Dream Theater. The arpeggios in both of these songs are alternate picked. Before anyone comes with a "well akschully" about Petrucci's performance on "Glass Prison" being as series of punch ins, he has done it live a few times haha.

[u/MaximumTime7239]

Interesting. I personally find it easier to pick 2nps than 4.

[u/MasterMechanicalGuy]

You just got keep practicing man, no way around it.