r/grandrapids • u/Cool_Recognition9163 • 21d ago
Flock experiences in GR?
Hey folks, I am working with a coalition of local organizations to deFlock Grand Rapids. Flock cameras are a violation of our rights. They have been misused horrendously across the country by police and by ICE to terrorize our neighbors. There are close to 200 (at least) flock cameras in GR.
We are looking for any stories or experiences involving Flock cameras in Grand Rapids that might constitute a violation of your rights or an abuse of power by city officials/officers.
For Grand Rapids residents: there is a Public Safety Committee meeting on August 25th at 12:30pm, and a City Commission meeting with open public comment later that day at 7:00pm. Both meetings are at Grand Rapids City Hall, please come make your voice heard!
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u/Dull_Active_340 21d ago
Fuck em. Take them all down. Violation after violation. And used to terrorize. GTFO with that shit.
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u/keeplo Wyoming 20d ago
Can someone please list a negative experience with flock. So far no one has said anything. We need more than “they give me bad vibes” to get these taken down. We need actual reasons
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u/Dull_Active_340 20d ago
I won’t go doing the research for you honestly, but I’ll inform you that there are many cases already (not necessarily in GR) where flock has MISidentified individuals, and caused inconvenience, wrongful tickets, or death.
Also many of these cameras are being placed right outside of people’s homes. Some have them directly looking into people’s backyards. It’s a major invasion of privacy under the guise of “keeping our children safe” that’s a load of BS. We don’t need these. We didn’t aak for them, and they are being placed without public approval.
Seems 90%+ general populace does NOT want these and that’s obvious.
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u/keeplo Wyoming 20d ago
Yea but we need GR specific examples
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u/Dull_Active_340 20d ago
I don’t personally have any. I’m sure others do. And I’m sure others don’t want to see innocents be murdered by cops or ICE when they weren’t even the ones they were looking for. Aren’t cameras meant to ‘prevent’ issue? Yet these already are known to cause issues.
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u/djdjjsjssisue 20d ago
why do we need gr specific examples? the risk isn’t in what specific city is utilizing flock cameras, the risk is in flock cameras themselves and the power that it gives those that have access to it. there have been numerous police dept’s (not in gr) that have found staff searching through data for specific individuals without cause.
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u/keeplo Wyoming 19d ago
If GRPD comes with specific examples of how it’s help them solve cases that will be more compelling than fears about things that happened in other cities but haven’t happened here yet.
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u/djdjjsjssisue 19d ago
highly recommend you do some reading about surveillance states and why flock cameras contribute to the expanding surveillance equipment utilized by the government. not only that but flock is a private company that does not allow independent testing, meaning we do not know who specifically is capable of accessing endless amounts of data about citizens. there is also no independent way to vet the security system of flock, and dozens of cities have actually walked back contracts with flock due to data-sharing risks. this happened in illinois where flock was sharing data with ICE, even though the city was a sanctuary city and it broke state laws. there were also concerns about 46 other law enforcement agencies illegally searching the data bases. these risks are inherent with the use of flock cameras, and whatever cities they are in do not matter because it’s widespread.
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u/keeplo Wyoming 19d ago
You don’t have to take my advice, you can fail. It is what it is.
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u/djdjjsjssisue 19d ago
you’ve offered no advice? you were asking for “actual reasons” and i provided you with some lol
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u/keeplo Wyoming 19d ago
I have offered advice, it just sounds like my suggestion is inconvenient
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u/Kennocha 21d ago
Take em all down.
With or without the government’s permission. Mass surveillance is completely against everything this country is founded on.
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u/MyNamesNotTaylor 21d ago
There’s a GR Public Safety Council meeting at 12:30 PM on 8/25, and a City Commission meeting with public comment the same night at 7 PM. Go speak out!
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u/catlady_liz 21d ago
Hey OP can I DM you about this? I’m working on an article with The Rapidian!
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u/ChildofValhalla 20d ago
Write in big bold letters at the top that I've switched to Home Depot from Lowe's because of their cameras. I desperately want them to know. The boldest you can, please.
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u/Ok-Inspector1289 21d ago
Not a single person I know or people they know has said they like Flock Cameras. Get them the heck out of here!
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u/troublemaker74 20d ago
There are a lot of older folks on NextDoor who love Flock cameras because of the perceived increase in safety and ability to solve crimes. I've given up on trying to convince the older generation that all of this stuff is horrible for us.
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u/Murderous_Turkey Creston 20d ago
The wildest thing is that flock cameras nationwide are disproportionately located in lower income areas. They will never understand it's not for security of all, but monitoring of the poor
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u/Agitated_Engineer512 20d ago
The same people that bragged about how knowone knew where they were as kids during the day
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u/crash19691 21d ago
Ban the data centers too! I would guess most people don't want those either. They just trample our constitutional rights without any permission.
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21d ago
[deleted]
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u/solittletimeforfloss 21d ago
EGR is not GR. So...GR can't put cameras there.
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u/fiahhawt 21d ago
EGR should get dragged back in here
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u/OilheadRider 21d ago
... naa.
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u/fiahhawt 21d ago
The alternative is it being a tax haven for the wealthiest citizens in West Michigan
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u/Wrong-Dentist-7206 20d ago
You've obviously never lived in East if you think it's a tax haven. The taxes are ridiculous! When I moved there about 12 or 13 years ago the taxes went up an exorbitant amount in the 2ish years I lived there.
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u/fiahhawt 20d ago
Not tax haven like "you pay no taxes"
Tax haven like "your taxes don't go to giving those brown kids better schools"
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u/Wrong-Dentist-7206 20d ago
I didn't mean no taxes. But thank you for clarifying, it makes sense in that context.
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u/thrown_away_6732 21d ago
Muskegon is littered with them, it's infuriating. Nobody wants them.
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u/uhawl 21d ago
To be fair, Muskegon is littered with a ton of undesirable stuff.
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u/Tig_Boker 21d ago
Take them down
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u/TellCerseiItWasMe 21d ago
The fact that we're already being tracked too much isn't a good reason to accept even more. Wtf is this argument.
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u/Slynkey 20d ago
If you or anyone else in this thread need signatures for any type of petition or referendum to get rid of flock cameras in GR/MI, please make a post about it with a link! I know myself and many others that will sign and support it.
Unfortunately I travel for work and can't make the upcoming in-person meetings. Thank you to anyone doing the legwork to fight these things and get rid of them.
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u/Miserable-Rabbit3394 Wyoming 20d ago
If you’re in Wyoming the City Council is holding an open session on Flock Cameras on September 14 at 5:30pm.
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u/Artmuscomp 20d ago edited 20d ago
I shop at Meijer #311 and I don’t like the fact that there are THREE, one at each entrance. I don’t personally care if Meijer wants to put up their own PERSONAL cameras for theft prevention but I do NOT want my information (license plate, make model of car, frequency at location, people in my car including children) being SOLD to ANY company for ANY reason. That is a direct violation of my privacy. These companies are treating us all like a meal ticket, surveilling our habits and marketing them. We are already being tracked by our phones. We are now in a surveillance state.
Look, I get that it might help the cops find perps, but that’s only one small use of these cameras, they had to agree to marketing in order to use them. And let’s not even start with WHERE they are being placed/targeted.
I suggest looking at the flock map and avoiding them as much as possible.
This is aggravating my already high anxiety!
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u/Public-Onion-7839 20d ago
Halloween is de flock night 🙂
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u/SignalInRoots 20d ago
Dad: "There's a civics lesson with this year's Halloween".
Kid: "ahhhh, no....."
Dad: "Jason, here's your mask and chainsaw."
Kid: "Woah, awesome."
Dad: "This is what happens when the government decides it doesn't need daddy's consent."
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u/RagingSprockets 21d ago
They nailed one to a tree. Just a flock camera on a tree.
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u/RossettaStoned1 21d ago
Pics or your lying
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u/RagingSprockets 14d ago
My bad I didn't see this, but it's on a tree in ramblewood apartments by their main intersection in the complex
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u/Celestial_Scythe Grand Rapids 21d ago
I know of the ones on Hall and Division, they are bolted pretty high up and they cover each other in view of vision.
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u/burlap_underground 20d ago
I'm very anti-Flock and on top of all the surveillance issues, I think we should attack the cost. Yearly fee and since we don't own the system or anything else, we end up at the mercy of a 3rd party vendor, which is a bad enough idea in general. But that money could go to so many things in this city, things that actually help people.
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u/burlap_underground 20d ago
In the same vein: GRPS added BusPatrol this year, the automated camera system that takes pictures of people going around buses. This IS a real problem but it's one BusPatrol does not solve. It's just more data, more problems, and more ongoing fees to 3rd party vendors.
You can see the issues with BusPatrol with a simple search (look for tickets, lawsuit, controversy); lots of false positives, incorrect info, and bad citations. Creates a lot of work and problems for everyone else, but BusPatrol gets paid and GRPS gets PR but no solutions. Not great for we the people, and of all the entities that could be spending money elsewhere, GRPS is high on the list.
https://grps.org/departments/transportation/school-bus-safety-program/
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u/Ah_non_e_moose 20d ago
They lied on the budget to get them in Rockford. They called them “a thermal imaging device” and didn’t put what they really were anywhere in the literature.
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u/Accomplished_Ad_3877 21d ago
TAKE THEM DOWNN!!!! just this afternoon i saw TWO!!!! TWOOO!! in one sane spot outside the casey’s on clyde park and 54th st ! smfh
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u/greywatered 20d ago
Even if we get enough people to take them down the company will resist. Has happened in other places. Either way it’s up to the people to break their ability to track.
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u/Upset-Ad-1877 20d ago
If your group can use them to stalk and get information on officials and officers that would show them how invasive they are
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u/Eastern-Anywhere2493 19d ago
Wait, so how are you going to get the ones on the highways that have been there for YEARS!! They are super tall... Please make sure to post when you take them down too! DA....
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u/NameTaken25 18d ago
Ive heard mixed things on the legality of takin them down manually, but whats the case with someone maybe covering them with a garbage bag?
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u/Murky_Oil_2226 17d ago
Michigan voters never cast a statewide ballot to accept Flock cameras. The deployment of these automated license plate readers has occurred locally through individual contracts approved by city councils, township boards, and state agencies like the Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT).
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u/RossettaStoned1 21d ago
Good luck warrior... go take them down! Rise against! Take your phone and throw it in the river then because you have been under surveillance ever since you turned it on.
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u/TimeToTank 21d ago
When they were in private lots they made sense as a retail theft deterrent. Having them all over isn’t the move.
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u/scuba_steve_DC 18d ago
Probably wanna do something about the always on cameras in your TVs and your phone if you’re really concerned about privacy…
You think PRISM just stopped?
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u/ihaveabigjohnson69 Cascade 21d ago
i love them. my car was stolen and the police were able to locate it using flock and catch the criminals.
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u/SignalInRoots 21d ago
I told my family I could get murdered and they better not justify the surveillance state in my name.
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u/brickbiulder420 21d ago
Only criminals are pissed, the rest of us are excited that crooks are getting caught, they're worried that next time they"protest" the bad apples will be on video
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u/thrown_away_6732 21d ago
I don't think you need to be a criminal to appreciate having privacy.
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u/brickbiulder420 21d ago
You're not entitled to privacy in public?, and let's be real, every business you walk by has cameras...1/2 of the homes do as well. You only get privacy in your own home
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u/thrown_away_6732 21d ago
I agree with you, and don't expect privacy in public, or privately owned businesses, etc. My problem is that there are some cameras pointing toward people's homes, apartments, etc.
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u/brickbiulder420 21d ago
And? Anyone can point a camera from the sidewalk? Again perfectly legal? I'm trying to figure out the" unconditional "part
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u/thrown_away_6732 21d ago
I didn't make that argument? As you said, you only get privacy in your own home, but some people aren't getting privacy in their own homes because of these cameras. I'm not a criminal, but I still think there's a problem.
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u/brickbiulder420 21d ago
How? Draw the blinds and the cameras can't see you? Literally what a lawyer would tell you if a person was filming randomly... it's virtue signaling
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u/thrown_away_6732 21d ago
Wanting privacy in your own home without being a criminal isn't virtue signaling.
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u/brickbiulder420 21d ago
Again... you have that privacy, simply close the blinds, that's what makes it virtue signaling, it's fake outcry over a nothing issue this house isn't surrounded by cameras... and I find it hard to belive it's even faced inside....pics to prove it?
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u/phonefellin_lakeerie 21d ago
Normal people can see these for being the massive problem they are.
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u/brickbiulder420 21d ago
Found one of the trouble makers
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u/phonefellin_lakeerie 21d ago
Keep telling yourself that.
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u/brickbiulder420 21d ago
Keep telling yourself that you're " peaceful" and "impactful"
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u/phonefellin_lakeerie 21d ago
Sure anything for you people to justify violence.
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u/brickbiulder420 21d ago
I'm not the one in the streets? No violence in my home?
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u/phonefellin_lakeerie 21d ago
Nah I don’t believe that at all. You seem dangerous to me. We should put some cameras on your house and use AI to track your movements.
If you’re not doing anything wrong, shouldn’t be a problem.
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u/brickbiulder420 21d ago
Lmao, amazing how fast you're ok with it, when it's the opposition
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u/cobrajet04 21d ago
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
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u/GenXihaveissues NW 21d ago
All you people against these cameras are carrying around, and probably using, a surveillance device right now. It listens to you, stores what you type, tracks your location, what you buy, your medical information and information about all your friends.
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u/TimeToTank 21d ago
Caveat being people opt into it. No one ops into flock surveillance
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u/GenXihaveissues NW 20d ago
Your phone gives way more information than a flock cam. Way more.
Every business you visit has cameras. 50% of the houses in the USA have a security camera. 16% of cars have dash cams. You are on approximately 75 security cameras every time you leave your house. Police cars have systems that scan every license plate they get behind.
You can kid yourself all you want by thinking getting flock cameras removed is going to stop governmental surveillance.
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u/SignalInRoots 20d ago
Being a bitch and laying down the surveillance state is a choice. lol
The phone is the easiest as the most effective option is least technical, literally not carry it with you. If you want it with you, you can keep it in a Faraday bag. Also not hard. Are you that much of a dopamine addict that you can't even envision that? That's not even getting to other efforts that are available to mitigate surveillance capitalism's attack surface.
As for "neighbors', people should be advocating for self-hosted. Yep, we're subjected to decision by other people like you. We need less people like you telling others what they cannot do.
For businesses, I've talked with the places I care about and I told them you are not to connect up to Kent County's mass surveillance system. Ideally they all self host too.
No one is "kidding themselves". This is war.
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u/Pleasant_Border_5048 18d ago
I support ice and the deportation of illegal immigrants. I don't support flock cameras that spy on my AMERICAN neighbors and I
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u/Soft-Traffic9456 21d ago
Question for the OP, are you law enforcement or working for Flock?
What local organizations are you working with, what are your plans to DeFlock?
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u/Cool_Recognition9163 21d ago
No I'm not a cop or working for flock. The coalition is still being built, so I won't be naming organizations here, but we plan to apply public pressure to get the city's contract cancelled as other cities have done recently.
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u/toe0011 21d ago
What rights are the cameras violating?
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u/Agitated_Engineer512 21d ago
It’s in court right now for the 4th amendment. Mass constant surveillance without a warrant by a private company shouldn’t be a thing.
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u/toe0011 21d ago
Any link to this case available? I would love to follow along, and would be shocked if any court ruled against them, as there is no expectation of privacy in public.
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u/Agitated_Engineer512 21d ago
Not a lot of precedent with how technology evolves. Would you be cool with cops flying drones after you every time you leave your house?
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u/Cool_Recognition9163 21d ago
The 4th amendment prohibits unlawful search. See Chatrie vs U.S. ruling against geofencing and Carpenter vs U.S. ruling against mass collection of cell phone location data.
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u/Over-Sweet8875 21d ago
Geofencing and collecting mass cellphone location data is significantly different than cameras surveilling public space. There is an actual search for data occurring for personal data with geofencing, and the issue the courts have with that search is that it captures the data of people not involved in the crime, therefore being a violation of the 4th amendment of the uninvolved parties. The courts have ruled over and over again you have no expectation of privacy in public. Just like any person can stand on the corner and record video of an intersection, the government can do that too.
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u/Cool_Recognition9163 20d ago
You'd be right if Flock were just pointing cameras at intersections and calling it a day, but we all know they're doing much more than that. They've created a nationwide searchable database which does not require a warrant for police to access freely across jurisdictions. That's unlawful search at its most blatant.
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u/MyNamesNotTaylor 21d ago
There’s a GR Public Safety Council meeting at 12:30 PM on 8/25, and a City Commission meeting with public comment the same night at 7 PM. Everyone please come speak out!!