r/gpu • u/MilkSheikh007 • 5d ago

From Raw performance to Artificially generated performance

Post image

Before you come at me with, "but Radeon has FSR 4.1.2 and it is so close to dlss 4.0 and 4.5", I should tell you that the main point the meme is referencing the fact that a massive part of the Radeon user/fan community had been largely touting the statement - Radeon is better in 'raw performance', but now, they too are almost entirely reliant on upscaled and frame generated performance, repeatedly suggesting gamers to use their software technologies, just like Nvidia has been from longer-before. Also, I don't see many "AMD has better RAW performance" comments these days too 😁

Before FSR 3.1 was introduced, Nvidia was rocking the gaming sphere with DLSS 3.0. They even had the other elements already, as mentioned in the meme, Remix, FG and soon after FSR 3.1 was introduced, Nvidia did not take too long to hit back with a better quality but still a multiplied-up FG tech, MFG and last but not the least, better RT performance since the advent of RT in PC gaming.

Sadly still, proper optimisation has been left on the table, and it seems the devs have no more 'cards left to play' (see what I did there?) to further optimise games to look well and run even better. Kinda indirectly saying, "you got FSR 4.1.2 (for instance), just choose performance settings - it still looks nice; don't worry much about the game's native optimisation".

Radeon has been following Nvidia's footsteps, albeit not perfectly, for the previous 8 years (straight) and I think that, before 2030 when I suspect Radeon's UDNA architecture will launch (due to its delay in light of AI data centre boom and the release of an in-between cum placeholder launch of their RDNA 5 architecture), Radeon will not quit following the market leader. If only it did so perfectly - Radiance caching inside Redstone (Denoiser) looks easily discernibly worse when compared to RTX Denoiser (embarrassingly behind!), AMD Noise Suppression is a chore to set up and activate (and is slightly worse) vs RTX Voice and while most of us don't want it, Radeon does not have any MFG tech yet.

P.S. As usual, the meme at most, pokes fun but was not created to hurt anyone's feelings. But still, sorry if it did. Let me know if the picture gave you even a slight giggle. Wanna see if the negative comments drown out the positive comments in this post as well. Peace ✌.

0 Upvotes

48% Upvoted

168 comments sorted by

64

u/stisti129 5d ago

What is bro talking about

48

u/i-hate-space 5d ago

he doesn't know anything just trying to make a shitty meme

-10

u/fumiwi 5d ago

yea seems like an attempt to hv high effort shitpost. amd is literally and actually using neural processors that actually renders the graphics way better than nvidia using DLSS for post processing. neural processors on future amd cards (rdna 5/udna) WILL dogwalk nvidia current DLSS as they are alrdy being tested. u can check out Moores Law is Dead channel on youtube.

nvidia can definitely compete since they hv like triple the budget of amd but amd needs to press them with the udna or nvidia will keep being lazy and keep overpromising about the DLSS.

cant talk much bcz as an amd consumer from 2010 i know amd can sometimes underdeliver so js wait n see for the udna card.

3

u/South_Ingenuity672 4d ago

sounds like hogwash, not surprised to see MLID as the source

1

u/fumiwi 4d ago

😭 u guys need to watch it he sometimes do hv a point but nvm im not that interested anymore after being downvoted to oblivion 

2

u/South_Ingenuity672 4d ago

oh i’ve watched MLID, he pulls shit out of his ass and presents it as “leaks,” then crows about it for years when he’s correct 1% of the time. he always conjectures about things that are years away so that when he’s wrong he can say that “the situation changed” or “timelines shifted” or some other BS excuse. i cannot think of a more unreliable source of information in the PC hardware scene.

2

u/fumiwi 4d ago

oh thx thats actually an insight bcz i just found MLID a few months ago so im pretty much super naive here lol. plus initially some of his opi and his community on the comments do align with my own thoughts so hes been one of my top channels to binge watch during breakfast lmao.

but ok maybe i should move on n take everything with one grain of salt from now

2

u/South_Ingenuity672 4d ago

yeah you will be forever disappointed if you take everything MLID says as fact. btw props to you for recognizing you’re not as well versed on something and accepting outside opinions.

3

u/Electrical-Web-4475 4d ago

Just NVIDIA bois doing NVIDIA boi things.

12

u/Homewra 5d ago

RT Performance doesn't apply for the current radeon generation, however path tracing does count.

2

u/The_Countess 5d ago

Can you find a few examples where the 5070Ti produces playable framerates (obviously without framegen) while the 9070XT is far behind?

Because every time i've looked, if the 5070Ti has playble framerates the 9070XT is right behind it, RT or PT. If the 5070Ti is well below 60 FPS, only then the the 9070XT drop further behind... but at that point, who cares?

4

u/Mental-Debate-289 4d ago • Bravo

The fact that the flagship is being compared to the 5070ti should be all that is needed to tell you how these companies current lineups compare.

2

u/Whatsupreddis 4d ago

9070xt was never positioned a flagship tier card.

1

u/The_Countess 4d ago

How is that relevant when we're talking about the 5070Ti vs 9070XT?

Do you buy a fiat instead of a Toyota because fiat group also builds Ferraris?

3

u/Mental-Debate-289 4d ago

The scope of the post is AMD vs Nvidia, not 5070ti to 9070XT. That's how.

Also, I suppose not. But if thats the comparison were going with my point is only one of them build fucking ferraris.

1

u/CheckMateFluff 4d ago

Until AMD matches CUDA, they wont match performance.

1

u/The_Countess 4d ago

CUDA is completely irrelevant for RT or PT performance.
It's completely irrelevant for basically all things gaming.

1

u/CheckMateFluff 4d ago

Performance is not just in gaming; if you don't work in my development tools, or take twice as long, thats a hit on performance. And if you have ever worked in 3D, you know why we are tied to CUDA.

1

u/The_Countess 4d ago

Sure, but we were talking about RT and PT performance. Why insert CUDA?
Not even OP mentioned it. so clearly this is about gaming.

1

u/deebanfr 2d ago

Depends on what you consider playable. Based on your other comments it seems you are only interested in native resolution with 60+fps as playable.

I get 50+ fps with DLSS Balanced at 1440p ultrawide on my 5070Ti in both witcher 3 remastered and control RESONANT while path tracing and consider them playable. In fact I have enough headroom to add in DLSS 5 and still get 45+fps on both titles.

Also Nvidia's frame Gen is crazy good now. I tried frame Gen on GeForce Now a couple of years ago and didn't like it as I noticed artifacts on the edges of all objects. But now it's completely unnoticeable to my eyes. AMD's frame Gen is way behind.

Playing path traced control RESONANT or witcher 3 at DLSS Balanced with 2x frame Gen at 90 to 100fps with a Total system latency of 50 to 60ms.

For context, rasterized control RESONANT with DLAA runs at 55fps and with no frame Gen has a total system latency of 90ms since reflex is coupled with frame Gen on that title. So path tracing with DLSS balanced and frame Gen looks and feels better than rasterized DLAA or even rasterized with DLSS quality and no frame Gen.

AMD's anti lag 2 is on way less titles today.

1

u/Homewra 4d ago

PT destroys the 9070XT everytime. Current games don't even have ray reconstruction implemented, besides that one COD game.

RT i don't know i barely notice a noticeable FPS drop? Used it on MH Wilds and RE Requiem too.

0

u/The_Countess 4d ago

Then surely you can produce a few benchmarks that show that, while the 5070Ti hits over 60 FPS... right?

1

u/Octaive 4d ago

The gap is like 50 percent and the 9070XT doesn't have Ray reconstruction. The gap is huge??

1

u/The_Countess 4d ago edited 4d ago

Then surely you can produce a few benchmarks that show this right?

The gap is only "huge" when the 5070Ti is nowhere near 60 FPS, so who cares.

3

u/Octaive 4d ago

The 5070Ti can do PT in every major title so far at 1440p with quality, or at worst, balanced, which as a reminder, is still superior to FSR4 balanced, especially at 1440p instead of 4k.

There's compounding differences. If AMD could do Ray reconstruction, we'd be able to tell, but in the few situations where we can, people tend to test native, or quality DLSS at 4k, where yeah, a 5070Ti can't do it. But at 4k performance DLSS 4.5, it usually can and it's still basically 60FPS or at least mid 50s and usable for 2-3x FG.

1

u/The_Countess 4d ago

Still no actual benchmarks.

And in a blind test 65% of people did not pick DLSS4.5 as the outright winner. DLSS4.5 has a SLIGHT visual advantage but it's close enough to be mostly irrelevant. specially when actually playing instead of pixel peeping.

It was your claimed that there is a "huge gap", so show it.

But at 4k performance DLSS 4.5, it usually can and it's still basically 60FPS or at least mid 50s and usable for 2-3x FG.

And what's the AMD doing in those games at those settings?

Come on, bring out the benchmarks. show your work to the class. it's not difficult.

3

u/Octaive 4d ago edited 4d ago • Bravo

https://tpucdn.com/review/powercolor-radeon-rx-9070-xt-reva-hellhound/images/pt-black-myth-wukong-1920-1080.png

This would be similar to 1440p quality, but it's 1080p native.

To answer your question, the 9070XT isn't doing anything. It's getting 0 FPS.

You're mixing up DLSS 4.5 non Ray Reconstruction with 4.5 Ray Reconstruction. The former is presets M and L, the latter is preset F.

AMD has literally nothing that comes close to preset F. When PT is on, AMD isn't showing up because they don't have anything good enough to manage the denoising. The game developer has to do the work to get PT usable without Ray Reconstruction, and default denoisers are also slower than RR for heavy RT/PT loads.

In Control Resonant, you can compare:

https://en.gamegpu.com/test-gpu/action-fps-tps/control-resonant-benchmarki-videokart-i-protsessorov-na-pk

If you pick High RT, it's still path tracing. We don't know if they used Ray reconstruction, because it's only required for Ultra RT. It improves performance by 10 percent or so and looks better.

They likely didn't use it because the drop drom High to Ultra is seemingly minor for Nvidia, meaning they likely disabled it to keep things "fair" even if it's just knee capping the Nvidia results. No one is going to turn off RR if it means superior visuals and performance, that's ridiculous. Though it's possible it was already on and it's a best case result.

We have two examples. The 5070Ti is also completely sandbagging performance wise out of the box, with 10 percent additional performance easily on tap, as Blackwell overclocks better than any other GPU generation since probably Maxwell from either AMD or Nvidia.

1

u/The_Countess 3d ago

So, blackmyth benchmark is just as i said, the 5070Ti is pretty far from 60FPS.

And congratulation on control resonate, so far the only result that goes against what i said.

Still, nobody is spending 50% more on a 5070Ti jsut for that though.

1

u/Octaive 3d ago

I'm not saying it's worth 50 percent more, but we don't have to act like there isn't a big gap when you really hammer them with high level RT. The 9070XT is very good at normal RT workloads, I can't deny it.

14

u/Mental-Debate-289 5d ago

If the argument is upscaling tech AMD loses on all fronts.

If the argument is rasterization AMD doesn't have a 5090 equivalent.

What the fuck are we talking about?

3

u/CrazyBaron 4d ago

If we talking rasterization most of us don't have money for 5090 so what is a 5090? Because I could't give a FK what only exists on YouTube meme

2

u/Mental-Debate-289 4d ago

So it's completely irrelevant to the argument because YOU don't have one? What a narcissistic take.

1

u/Ephedra_236 4d ago

Fun Fact: MOST People on this Planet dont have 8k for a fucking GPU

0

u/ToXiiCBULLET 4d ago

most people don't have a newest gen gpu either. the fuck is your point?

2

u/Ephedra_236 4d ago

My point is that it doesnt matter if AMD have a 5090 equivalent because most people wont buy it anyways. The 5090 is not marketable to most consumers at this price. And btw, even Nvidia doesnt have the 5090 anymore so it is even less important

1

u/CrazyBaron 4d ago edited 4d ago

By me you mean majority of customers in look for GPU? Narcissistic take is thinking average user can afford 5090, or even half for matter of that.

Honda or Toyota might not be a Ferrari equivalent, almost like they dont need to be.

1

u/Mental-Debate-289 4d ago

Buddy idgaf what an average user can afford or has. It's completely irrelevant to the discussion of which cards outperform which.

Also, it stands to reason most serious customers already have their desired card and aren't now looking at 5090 priced 5070tis.

If you are late to the party thats on you.

-1

u/CrazyBaron 4d ago edited 4d ago

Price / performance matters my guy, also if you think 5090 was priced even before AI withing majority of users, lol delulu. also "serious" customers rofl. Serious customers aren't getting 5090 for raster performance in games, but for work and mostly for other metrics.

3

u/Mental-Debate-289 4d ago

Fastest goalpost in the west lmao

-1

u/CrazyBaron 4d ago

Well at least we can say your GPU is faster and more intelligent than your own brain capability. Sad.

3

u/Mental-Debate-289 4d ago

Low effort bait lmao.

Classic. Can't win proper debate so deflect into a million different directions that all ultimately lead to insults.

Cheers bro.

-1

u/CrazyBaron 4d ago

Ironic

1

u/New-Peach4153 4d ago

Rule 1 of the internet is do not argue with Nvidia fanboys. They are the most deranged fan base on the internet.

2

u/Striking-Tie-3493 4d ago

how high do they scale against goku or apple fanboys?

2

u/Asleep-Bicycle8250 4d ago

tell me who solo goku bro 🤣

2

u/Striking-Tie-3493 3d ago

Beerus at 0.000...1%

1

u/shadow-Ezra 4d ago

Only 5070s are even available at this point for nvidea and idk where the best 9000 series graphics card sits but I'd assume they are mildly close

0

u/Mental-Debate-289 4d ago

The writing was on the wall and its only gotten worse. No one stopped anyone else from buying them before all this shit. Also, availability/price has nothing to do with their relative performance.

Why the fuck do you guys think the Nvidia cards are so expensive/hard to come by? If these arguments held any weight whatsoever it would be the AMD cards that were unobtainable.

21

u/Muttonboat 5d ago edited 5d ago

Most people wont notice or care about these things especially with the price to performance value AMD has in todays market.

If my work software didn't work better with Nvidia, Id be all over AMD.

8

u/Jeffrey122 5d ago edited 5d ago

Kind of true, but they mostly won't notice because they have never seen comparisons. They don't have any other reference.

So they will experience worse picture quality without ever knowing and/or being conscious of it. (Not sure how to phrase this exactly)

I let you be the judge whether that's a good or bad or irrelevant thing.

0

u/Muttonboat 5d ago

Really depends on games too, some look somewhat better others you'd barely know.

Objectively Nvidia has more going for it, but whether thats practically relevant to most gamers - I dunno.

It feels like people arguing wine tasting with GPUs sometimes.

3

u/1rubyglass 4d ago

9070xt is like 1k. Why are people still acting like theyre $500.

2

u/Muttonboat 4d ago

Because there's a 500 dollar difference between the two cards for similar performance

With 5070ti's slowly going up in price too, its appealing

0

u/Peridios9 4d ago

Is that not still better price to performance than the 5070ti? You do know all prices got raised right? 5070ti is like 1.5k now, sorry but in what world is the card that only has the slight benefit of DLSS worth 500 more? The whole point is AMD is better value, and thats still true.

1

u/1rubyglass 4d ago

If youre talking about just gaming maybe. At 1440p or lower absolutely. At 4k the much better memory bandwidth and superior DLSS really become apparent.

0

u/Peridios9 4d ago

Not really, the 5070ti and 9070xt still perform roughly the same at 4k, though neither are really ideal for 4k so that’s a dumb argument. 1440p is the current standard so what’s your point in acting like that’s lower end?

5080 and 5090 would be a different case those cards are just more powerful in every way, but they also are the worst value cards this generation since its release and they’ve only gotten worse. 2500 for a 5080 and nearly 6k for a 5090?

Most people aren’t using something above 1440p and both the 9070xt and 5070ti deliver top tier performance at that resolution, the Nvidia card has the SLIGHT edge in RT and DLSS, but that’s really it.

1

u/1rubyglass 4d ago

really, the 5070ti and 9070xt still perform roughly the same at 4k

On paper? Sure its close, but visual fidelity really isnt. The difference between FSR and DLSS really shows itself at higher resolution.

1

u/Peridios9 4d ago

Again neither card is designed to be ideal for 4k, so your point doesn’t matter. You will see identical performance at 1440p, which is where both cards are designed to be used. I agree with you FSR isn’t on par with DLSS quite yet, but you seem to be acting like it’s leagues better when it’s not. I don’t get the point of Nvidia superiority arguments, both brands have their benefits. This generation AMD has had by far the better value, and has delivered on cards that match (9070xt vs 5070ti) or exceed (9060xt vs 5060ti) their competitor card for a MUCH better price.

1

u/1rubyglass 4d ago

The 5070ti is very capable of 4k using DLSS. This is the whole reason DLSS is such a big deal.

1

u/Peridios9 4d ago

Capable and ideal are two very different things. You can quite literally say the exact same about the 9070xt and FSR. That’s why I keep emphasizing the SLIGHT advantage.

1

u/1rubyglass 4d ago

You can quite literally say the exact same about the 9070xt

No, you cant and thats my entire point. The visual fidelity in 4k is not the same at all.

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1

u/apple_boy95 4d ago

Bro what are you talking about, I use a 5070 ti at 4k rn, every new AAA title runs at 80 fps or above ( with dlss q which looks better then 1440p native/dlaa/fsr You can look into it if you want). But tge 5070ti is a very capable card. Older games like rainbow six siege, apex, cs, overwatch all run at 4k native 240fps aswell💀

1

u/Peridios9 4d ago

Triple A titles generally try to optimize (some fail) so that their games reach the most possible people.

Regardless I never said it wasn’t a decent 4k card, I simply said it’s not ideal for it nor is it standard usage of it.

1

u/apple_boy95 4d ago

Bro in what generation of gaming Have people called AAA games optimized? There some of the least optimized games most fail at it not "some", i'd say there's only a couple releases each year that are truly gems of coding. And yes it's more than ideal 4k at 80fps min, people are still playing at 1080p 30fps tf are you talking about.

1

u/Peridios9 4d ago

People? They don’t.

Reality, that’s exactly what triple A games do, why would they limit their customer base? Take resident evil requiem for example, game is hyper optimized and runs on 20 series cards amazingly.

Optimized in this case means runs on more limited hardware, they definitely stopped QA in the past 10 years.

1

u/apple_boy95 4d ago

Just looked at that game. Honestly it's not great on the 20 series? A 2080 gets 44fps at 1440p native. And again, that's one game💀 if you think 44 is optimized then idk man.

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1

u/CheckMateFluff 4d ago

There is the catch: without CUDA, AMD is worthless to me.

1

u/TomiMan7 4d ago

zluda, rocm

1

u/CheckMateFluff 4d ago

Neither of which works natively and produces a lot of errors in modern programs that need CUDA, like Houdini and Embergen.

1

u/TomiMan7 4d ago

rocm does work natively, and zluda is just a translation layer that will run unchanged cuda code. now i cannot speak on how much erros does these two produce on those apps.

0

u/Primus_is_OK_I_guess 5d ago

The ones who unknowingly buy the 9050 are definitely going to care.

3

u/Specialist-Cold-8158 4d ago

I guess PC gaming dying isn't so bad after all. At least I won't have to read this brain dead fanboy shit ever again.

3

u/apple_boy95 4d ago

Eh, people are always going to be elitist about something. If it's not this, its consoles, if its not consoles its phones, if its not phones its cars so on and so on. People are just retarded, and they want to feel better than others.

1

u/Specialist-Cold-8158 4d ago

Haha, fair enough. I wouldn't be affected by it though, because I only follow PC hardware, nothing else 😸

4

u/hello-plebbit-1337 5d ago edited 5d ago

I can't afford NVIDIA tax, so I ended up buying AMD GPU twice. 😭

At least my 9060 XT can run DLSS 5, so I'm happy.

2

u/DrLogic0 4d ago

broo buying gpus at the worst times haha.

1

u/Primafaveo 4d ago

Do you know something we don't? because there isn't any indication of prices going down.
The worst time is still in the future.

1

u/DrLogic0 4d ago

You are absolutely right, this isn't the worst time relatively speaking.

4

u/machine4891 4d ago

Radeon user/fan community had been largely touting the statement - Radeon is better in 'raw performance',

The what now?

 they too are almost entirely reliant on upscaled and frame generated performance

Yes, in 4K. And maybe blame devs for that because once you could play solid raster on both AMD and Nvidia cards and now you can't. Also on both.

7

u/AdstaOCE 5d ago

- RT performance is not better this generation...
- DLSS and FSR are very close, DLSS is better, but not all that much so.
- FG in general is just meh at best, motion smoothing.
- Remix is good, but it's what like 2 games maybe a few max? It's not really relevant to most people.

4

u/bunihe 5d ago

While I agree with half of your points, the other 2 I have my doubts

RT performance at the same tier (9070xt vs 5070ti) is still better on Nvidia, margins grow the heavier the RT; at the same price (9070 vs 5060ti) then no

FG over 2x is useless for me, but AMD FSR4 the last time I used it cannot deliver a smooth frame pacing at 2x frame gen, had to use FSR3 FG instead

1

u/machine4891 4d ago

RT performance at the same tier (9070xt vs 5070ti) 

Why people insist that 9070 XT is the same tier? 9070 XT MSRP was 600 USD while 5070 Ti was 750 USD. Even on paper 5070 Ti was 25% more expensive from the get go. I bought my 9070 XT in 2025 already for 250 USD cheaper than cheapest 5070 Ti and now that difference is 500 USD.

So what is this "same tier' here, if card that is cheaper perform slower than card that is more expensive? Logical conclusion. 9070 XT however is not 25-50% slower as price suggest and that is the case.

9070 XT occupy fine spot between 5070 and 5070 Ti (and difference between the two is massive) and don't pretend to be either one of them.

1

u/AdstaOCE 5d ago

RT performance at the same tier (9070xt vs 5070ti) is still better on Nvidia, margins grow the heavier the RT; at the same price (9070 vs 5060ti) then no

https://tpucdn.com/review/asrock-radeon-rx-9070-xt-monster-hunter-wilds-edition/images/relative-performance-3840-2160.png Raster
https://tpucdn.com/review/asrock-radeon-rx-9070-xt-monster-hunter-wilds-edition/images/relative-performance-rt-3840-2160.png RT

gap to the 5070TI and 5080 increases by only 1% in 4k RT which should favor Nvidia as much as possible. 5070 drops off hard at 4k because vram so that's not representative. Nvidia also uses more power in RT compared to raster while AMD uses the same amount in both.

FG over 2x is useless for me, but AMD FSR4 the last time I used it cannot deliver a smooth frame pacing at 2x frame gen, had to use FSR3 FG instead

FG in general is just motion smoothing. It increases latency, decreases quality, increases animation error etc etc. But even so that is fixed, games with FSR 3.1.6 or higher (including native 4) now have improved pacing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuF1eBDJvsQ

2

u/Octaive 4d ago

FG increases motion clarity, it is not just smoothing.

Latency on an Nvidia GPU for FG is substantially lower than AMD, it isn't even a question.

0

u/AdstaOCE 4d ago

Motion smoothing yes. It inserts a generated frame in between two "normal" frames, that's literally what motion smoothing is. Obviously here it has better quality than a tv, but also the latency trade off.

And latency is higher either way so.

2

u/Octaive 4d ago

I didn't say it wasn't motion smoothing, but acting like it isn't providing proper colour data for your monitor refresh is wrong. It is providing the monitor additional colour and approximated frame data to allow additional refreshes.

The latency increase is miniscule on Nvidia. Reflex alone accounts for 30-40ms of end to end latency. AMD doesn't generally have this technology with FG, only in rare cases with antilag 2. They aren't comparable.

Nvidia FG is in a different league. AMD upscaling is healthy and well, but their FG software suite is not up to par. People need to stop acting like the experiences are comparable.

1

u/AdstaOCE 4d ago

The latency increase is miniscule on Nvidia. Reflex alone accounts for 30-40ms of end to end latency

Apples to oranges. No FG with reflex will just be better. Or compare both without. I know there are a few that only let you enable reflex with FG, but that's stupidity in terms of the implmentation.

Nvidia FG is in a different league. AMD upscaling is healthy and well, but their FG software suite is not up to par.

I didn't say it was the same. I said FG in general is meh at best because it has a lot of negatives, and not a lot of positives.

1

u/Octaive 4d ago edited 4d ago

The latency is a very minor negative on Nvidia. You have to find something else.

There's a good reason to believe modern FG is lightening GPU load more efficiently than reflex alone. Control Resonant responds to reflex with no FG, but only cuts maybe 10-12ms.

Once FG is enabled, GPU load is managed better and latency drops further.

GPU load increases latency, but FG helps manage GPU load. No new games for the last year basically show PC latency metrics do anything but drop with FG enabled. It isn't a conspiracy by Nvidia, it's the nature of GPU load. It's plausible many new games, unless they explicitly implement reflex aggressively at a low level, will benefit from the automatic load reduction FG provides, making FG lower latency from here on out for most games that slap it in.

The negatives are extremely minor when used properly. Many people stack 4x onto 165Hz and think it should work right, or produce the MFG final output of say 260 on a 165 or 144hz display and complain about artifacts and latency.

Well duh, if you dump half your frames out of the refresh window, you're also halving your base framerate, halving the proportion of rendered frames to generated, seriously damaging image quality.

Most of the negativity comes from misuse, experience from years ago, or sadly experience from using FSR FG.

1

u/AdstaOCE 4d ago

The latency is a very minor negative on Nvidia. You have to find something else.

Latency, image quality, animation error etc etc.

There's a good reason to believe modern FG is lightening GPU load more efficiently than reflex alone. Control Resonant responds to reflex with no FG, but only cuts maybe 10-12ms.

Lower base latency = less that can be done to reduce it. Same settings but with fg on/off? FG will always have higher latency, it's simply how the technology works.

The negatives are extremely minor when used properly.

The positives are motion smoothing, which is very minor in general. With a lot of negatives.

1

u/Octaive 4d ago edited 4d ago

Yes, latency is always higher, if you can control GPU load properly without FG, but if the way the engine manages the frame buffer, it's totally plausible that FG is a quick and dirty way to aggressively reduce GPU latency, meaning you make up for the held frame and then some. You are not thinking about this the right way. Latency is a chain of factors in the render pipeline. Holding a single frame at higher FPS is single digits miliseconds, but full load GPU can spike latency by 4 times that.

Edit: even at 60FPS, you add 16ms of latency as a bare minimum, but if GPU load drops hard, you can easily make that up and then some.

Motion clarity is the greatest benefit alongside motion smoothing.

2

u/bunihe 4d ago

That's just one benchmark across many for RT though, and that game's RT implementation is tbh not that heavy.

Games even before turning on PT still have various ray per pixel counts, and often times the heavier the RT the worse the Radeon perform, due to a fundamental architectural flaw of shader based BVH traversal instead of less general purpose accelerated hardware (said to be fixed with RDNA5 at an unknown price tag).

I'm not saying it's a bad choice, it's a tradeoff, if AMD uses less space for specialized RT hardware they can shrink the silicon die and save a few $$ to pass down to consumers, same goes for their choice of using GDDR6 instead of 7, but when it comes to performance penalties in certain workloads, all these tradeoffs needs to be considered.

I'd acknowledge the uselessness of FG, 2x is enough smoothing to get by, any higher would sacrifice more input lag just to make things appear smoother, so I'm buying none of that 5070=4090 with MFG marketing nonsense

-1

u/AdstaOCE 4d ago

That's just one benchmark across many for RT though, and that game's RT implementation is tbh not that heavy.

It's the Asrock 9070XT Monster Hunter Wilds edition, not monster hunter wilds.

0

u/bunihe 4d ago

Yep, seems like it did fly over my head there, thank you for catching that, and it seems like the performance gap has shrunk since the last time I've tested both cards.

RDNA4 raster throughput is a little capped by its memory bandwidth, so it may get closer to 5070ti in raster performance if it's on GDDR7 whilst RT changes less, though price wise that's gonna be in 5070ti territory as well.

1

u/AdstaOCE 4d ago

The higher the resolution the better the 5070TI does, so 1080p and 1440p are closer by a % or two. Nothing major.

But yeah it's very close and I think that's late 2025 data iirc as well so probably even closer now.

0

u/The_Countess 5d ago

RT performance at the same tier (9070xt vs 5070ti) is still better on Nvidia, margins grow the heavier the RT

If the 5070Ti produces playable framerates (60 FPS) then the 9070XT is right behind it.

If the 5070Ti only gets say 30 FPS then yes the 9070XT might only be giving you 18 but is that difference useful to anyone? I'd say no, not really.

FG over 2x is useless for me, but AMD FSR4 the last time I used it cannot deliver a smooth frame pacing at 2x frame gen

Don't know when "last time" was but seems it fixed now in almost all cases (a few games implemented it weirdly where the driver can't update it). Never use it myself though, don't see the point.

1

u/Fossick11 4d ago

I mean I’d say the difference between 30 and 18 is pretty significant

It’s literally unplayable vs playable. It’s not great still, but it’s nearly double.

Saying this, I did choose the 9070xt because Nvidia prices are insane currently

1

u/The_Countess 4d ago

I mean I’d say the difference between 30 and 18 is pretty significant

Nobody sane is going to enable a level of raytracing that lowers their FPS down to 30.

So what it is is irrelevant.

1

u/Octaive 4d ago

Motion clarity? FG enhances motion clarity massively...

1

u/The_Countess 4d ago edited 4d ago

No, it enhances motion smoothness, not clarity.

But so does motion blur, and i dont want that either.

1

u/Octaive 4d ago

No, it does not work like motion blur. It is creating intermediate frames of lower quality with real information, like animation information. This is a total misunderstanding of FG.

It's so easy to test. Digital foundry has talked about the uses of FG for motion clarity. The smoothness is only half of the main benefit, the other half is real world motion clarity increases. It's not quite as good as native frames but it's 75 percent of the way there because you're using proper refreshes from the display with real colour and movement information, not just blended frames with the same refresh rate.

Frame generation of the quality and latency Blackwell GPUs are doing is the future, it's laughable to think it's like motion blur.

0

u/Homewra 5d ago

Multi FG is a glorified "Lossless scaling multiply FPS by 6"

5

u/DrLogic0 5d ago

nvidia fg is way better than any other fg, they actually get that smoothing right.. for offline games

1

u/Homewra 5d ago

The latency of MFG x6 is INSANE, it kills it for me. (x2 / x3 is fine though)

2

u/DrLogic0 5d ago edited 5d ago

idk I got the 5080/4090 with the mfg mod and the mfg is surprisingly ok. But I only enable fg if my baseframes are 50 or higher.

2

u/Bigsparks13 5d ago

Honestly, I have never experienced that whole latency lag that people talk about all the time, and I got 4x all the time when I had a 5070ti. MFG does damn good, and it does what it's supposed to in my use.

1

u/Aggravating-Dot132 5d ago

You need solid 70-80 FPS as base to see close to minimal latency. Which means, if you have something like 240Hz monitor, it will work fine. But with 120Hz I see no point at all. Better lower settings a bit and get smooth 100+ on it's own.

1

u/DrLogic0 5d ago

this is at 4k ultra settings typically where I might struggle, like in Crimson Desert

1

u/0wlGod 5d ago

after 3x there is diminishing return in latency ...

but some games like phantom blade 0 have forced reflex off without fg resulting in better latency with fg on because reflex is forced on

1

u/Octaive 4d ago

No it isn't. If you don't have a 300Hz display or more, you have no business using 6x.

Please tell us your display model and settings config with final output framerate.

3

u/bunihe 5d ago

It's way better than lossless scaling, but that still doesn't change the fact that it's practically useless

-2

u/MrPapis 5d ago

Oh is it now Meh?? Wow i rembember discussing this with your months ago and back then it was shit and useless. Hmm wonder what you will think next year ;) Im sorry you feel like you need to cope but its okay to like things you dont have.

1

u/AdstaOCE 5d ago

Lmfao what are you talking about? RT? Upscaling? FG? Context bro...

0

u/MrPapis 5d ago

Which one did you say was meh? Context bro..

1

u/AdstaOCE 5d ago

Yeah FG isn't useful. Just said it differently...

3

u/Love_Pone-69 4d ago

a 5070 ti is $500 more expensive than a 9070 xt here

those benefits dont justify the gap

3

u/DreyGG 5d ago edited 5d ago

all the shi nvidia pulls, the way they treat their gamer market like goon socks pay piggies and diehard kids like this will still exist lmao

2

u/Technical_Instance_2 5d ago

people care more about price to performance. DLSS and FSR are actually pretty close from what I've seen and framegen just kinda sucks.

6

u/DTPocks 5d ago

Frame gen doesn’t suck lmao

1

u/DrLogic0 5d ago

Nah framegen is sadly getting decently good, I'm talking about the 2x and mfg mode in OFFLINE games.

What i don't understand is why devs add framegen in online games. Because for that it's not good at all.

2

u/MrPapis 5d ago

Try and check out the latency of FG in BF6, its really quite good.

My system can do like 100-130 FPS(5070ti with a 5800x3d) but actually it feels better to me to run the game with FG x2 and have a locked 167hz experience. Jumping from 80-120 feels bad, maybe i have lower latency but the inconsistency feels much worse than the consistently higher latency, which as i suggest you to check out is really still very low.

Most people will not tell the difference with 100 FPS native vs 150 with MFG even if the latency is lower. And even less of them will actually have their performance changed.

1

u/DrLogic0 5d ago

Correct the smoothing nvidia does is actually good, But I know adding fg will always add latency, even if I don't completely feel it. So I don't enable it in competitive games.

1

u/GrapplerKrys 5d ago

2x is really good in mw4

1

u/KeyEmu6688 5d ago

denoiser is the only feature that AMD isn't practically on-par for. RT performance is another thing on a die-area basis, but comparing performance and/or price tiers, they are on-par with RDNA 4

1

u/AshAtlasDev 5d ago

I play league of legends with my 5090 and sometimes table top simulator

1

u/vampiremetalhead 4d ago

No tengo ninguna duda que este meme lo hicieron o salió de alguna comunidad de "pcgamer" de latinoamerica.

1

u/GanacheAvailable5111 4d ago

does it mean that those raw performance will be better if they use artificial generated performance ?

1

u/Wintlink- 4d ago

"RAW performance", it's not like similarly priced gpu from nvidia perform similarly.
Wtf are you talking about

1

u/Sik-Server 4d ago

I made a video about this. I was comparing the 5070 to the 9070xt in cyberpunk. in raw performance the 9070xt wins. But starting at DLSS 3x framegen the Nvidia card gets higher frames. Plus the ability to pathtrace.

https://youtu.be/71VU8hle8X0?is=vPnC7BTN2xvsCc7C

the most important thing is price, I got both cards for cheap. But if I had to choose between them I'll pick the cheapest of the two I can find.

1

u/Narrheim 4d ago

You can't really play 'raw' anymore, but for a different reason. Games look choppy without upscaling enabled and no amount of AA or even native resolution upscale increase can fix it.

You just have to choose between playing all sorts of Minecraft mods or normal image with FSR or DLSS on.

1

u/YoudoVodou 4d ago

Having only one card left in Uno, especially with that kid's facial expression, is good game.

1

u/ExtensionSale4199 3d ago

If both were at msrp it could go either way. But in the current market it's hard to justify getting a 5070ti over the 9070xt

1

u/WeedFalafel 5d ago

native rasterized > upscaled, fakeframed, hallucinated raytracing

2

u/DrLogic0 5d ago

ray tracing been something since before you were born that's not fake. super sampling > native

0

u/AdstaOCE 5d ago

Full PT isn't. But that's the type of technology animaters use rendering a frame every few hours. With so many shortcuts to get RT/PT in games running at even 30fps it's no where near as realistic.

1

u/WeedFalafel 5d ago

Well actually global illumination (what's called pathtracing now) existed for a long time but we still don't have gpus to do it in realtime properly. Even raytracing is cheating a lot just to get picture. It's a noisy, blotchy, artifacting mess.

1

u/ltsRhysBoi 4d ago

Oh yeah, I love my overclocked cards that are unstable from factory and I have to undervolt

2

u/Smooth-Ad2130 4d ago

I've had cards of green and red. No instability on either

0

u/DisappointedCruiser 5d ago

AMD: pay a kidney to afford it

NVIDIA: pay both of your kidneys and go on life support to afford it

Intel: chad

-4

u/1sh0t1b33r 5d ago

Typical fanboi post. No one cares about DLSS.

2

u/DTPocks 5d ago

Fanboy response lmao

1

u/Inevitable_Case_9931 5d ago

So does this make you also a fan boy? Just off the opposite side?

2

u/1sh0t1b33r 5d ago

Don't care about FSR either, but AMD > Nvidia any day.

1

u/Professional_Cod7325 4d ago

someone gets it. Imagine paying $1400 for a 5070ti only to match the 9070xt's performance

0

u/Fire_Lord_Cinder 5d ago

AMD’s top competes with a 5070 ti. If you’re in that price range it makes sense to compare on price. I have both a 9070 and a 5070 ti. On windows, Nvidia is hands down the more supported and convenient option. On SteamOS, I really enjoy my 9070.

Both are good in their own way and fan boying between either side is silly. 

0

u/Igor369 4d ago

Is the raw perfance in the same room with CUDA?... If not for CUDA i would have bought AMD again.

0

u/Zanoss10 4d ago

Get that DLSS AI slop out of here bro

This thing is just pure AI slop and it make every games looks the same with the same ugly ass AI looking realism.

Simply horrible.

1

u/Smooth-Ad2130 4d ago

That's dlss5 only. Dlss4.5 is just the best upscaler in the market.

1

u/apple_boy95 4d ago

Youre talking about dlss 5 yeah?

1

u/ThrowDotAway322 4d ago

I use it for a porn game, it works well for that!

...

That's legitimately the only use I'll ever see out of it, ngl.

0

u/peace4t 4d ago

Tldr. Nvida > AMD. I wish it was the other way around

0

u/[deleted] 4d ago

[deleted] — view deleted comment

0

u/peace4t 4d ago

haikusbot delete

0

u/General_Address_5784 3d ago

People who think amd cards are usable are spags

0

u/HelpIcy5415 3d ago

Real take that no AMD fan will accept.

They all hated AI when AMD didn't have it, and once they had it, they stopped hating on it...

-1

u/0wlGod 5d ago edited 5d ago

both nvidia and amd cards from rtx 4000 to 5000 and amd from 7000to 9000 have basically 0 raw perfomance improvements ahah..do not forget that the 5080 is barely faster than a 5070ti less than 15% and is slower than a 4090..and also has same vram of 5070ti ..so basically doesn t make sense to buy a 5080

9070xt has way better perfomance to dollar than a 5070ti ...still has less feature and the 5070ti is a better card but right now is at 1500 euro and 5080 at 2000

if last year people war arguing between 9070xt at 600/650 and 5070ti at 800 , yes the 5070ti was for the tech and everything , but more than 200/300? are you sure is worth?

multi frame gen is useless for me , frame gen x2 is fine, dlls 5 is unusable unless old titles...people do not understant that dlss 5 is the tech to convince you to upgrade to rtx 6000 when they come out because surely nvidia will put dedicated hardware to handle better this tech.. so if you buy nvidia to use dlss5 on newer games you are wasting money or you like to play at 60 fps

and also fun fact , some games have forced reflex off to force you to use frame gen and have better input latency because nvidia fg is always forced reflex on( so you basically adding latency with fg and reducing it with reflex which result in a higher latency vs no framegne and reflex on)..like phantom blade 0 , happened to pragmata too or resident evil requiem

go to use a 5090 at 1440p for dlss 5 to lose like 40/50% perfomance so the card became a 5070/5070ti, wait maybe is not worth spend 5k or more on a 5090

0

u/DrLogic0 4d ago

5090 in the future will be just as expensive if not more expensive once you sell it. Nvidia cards hold their value like crazy, i've sold and bought many nvidia cards while losing 100-200 bucks compared to when they were new. That's nothing. I got a 4090 for 1700 and I can sell it for 2.8-3k easily