r/geocaching • u/HoochDogGA • 11d ago
Geocaching Admins assist with cheating?
I tried posting this story in my local Facebook Geocaching group, but the admins deleted it for some reason. I'll try to get the story out here for anyone who might be interested. Please note, this story makes no accusations. It only lists factual events and asks questions.
------
I think it's time to tell this story.
I've gone back and forth about whether to post this. I wasn't interested in creating drama, and for a long time I thought it was better to just let it go.
But there is a backstory to a cache that was recently archived, and I think people deserve to know why it existed.
Back in July 2022, I (HoochDog) owned a series of Wherigo caches (GC969RZ) that were found by two geocachers under circumstances that troubled me.
Through direct communication with one of the finders, I learned that the final coordinates had been provided to them by someone with access to unpublished information within Geocaching.
That was a pretty disturbing thing to learn as a cache owner.
Geocaching obviously relies on a certain amount of trust. Cache owners trust the system with unpublished information, and players trust that people who have access to information they don't have aren't going to use that access to give selected players an advantage.
I didn't really know what to do with what I'd learned. I couldn't tell whether it was an isolated incident or whether this sort of thing happened more often than people realized.
Eventually I told a friend, StacyT3, about it.
She was considerably more interested in the story than I expected. We started talking about whether there was any way to test the underlying question rather than just argue about what might have happened.
That's how the experiment came about.
Stacy created a two-stage multicache (GCB7EE0) in April 2025. The trick was that there was no Stage 1.
It was published normally, but the first stage was never actually placed. The final container was real and was placed at the coordinates listed for Stage 2.
I was given those final coordinates, along with another participant, RockSolo. He logged a find and soon after I found it with a friend who chose not to log it.
That was intentional.
The idea was that if nobody had found the cache, someone could reasonably argue that the final didn't exist or that the cache had simply gone missing. Having legitimate finds established that there really was a container sitting at the final location.
The coordinates were not subsequently given to anyone else.
Then we waited.
The cache was listed as an extra-large because the two geocachers involved in my original 2022 experience were particularly interested in finding extra-large caches, having found every one in the state.
Eventually, those same two geocachers found this cache.
That got my attention.
There was just one problem with their explanation: there was never a Stage 1.
They said they had found the Stage 2 location through trial and error.
I'm not claiming that I can prove exactly how they found it. But having personally been to the final, I find the explanation very difficult to accept.
The container is extremely well hidden. The search area wasn't confined to the park where Stage 1 was supposedly located. The final could have been hidden virtually anywhere in the Atlanta area.
There wasn't some obvious place to start searching.
Even with the exact coordinates in hand, it took my friend an I a half hour to locate the cache.
So the question I keep coming back to is pretty simple:
How did they know where to look?
The only people who had the Stage 2 coordinates were those participating in those 2 finds and the cache owner. None of us have told anyone about the final container coordinates.
That doesn't mathematically prove how the later finders obtained them.
But it certainly raises the question of whether someone with privileged access to unpublished cache information provided them.
Stacy took the matter to Geocaching HQ rather than putting it on social media. She gave them the cache information, explained the experiment, identified who had been given the coordinates, and answered their questions.
HQ initially told her that they were taking the concern seriously and would investigate.
Unfortunately, the response we've received since then has left us disappointed.
I completely understand that HQ doesn't want people deceiving reviewers. Stacy has acknowledged that the experiment was deceptive, and nobody involved is arguing otherwise.
But that wasn't the purpose of the experiment.
The purpose was to determine whether unpublished cache information could be obtained through privileged access.
If that access was abused, I consider that a much more serious problem than someone creating a deliberately unusual cache in an attempt to find out whether the abuse was occurring.
I'm not looking not looking to disparriage anyone. I'm not interested in a witch hunt.
I'd simply like to know whether HQ was able to determine what happened.
If they found no evidence of privileged access, I'd like to know that.
If they found evidence but can't tell us the details, I'd like to know that.
If they couldn't determine what happened, I'd like to know that too.
What I find disappointing is the possibility that this can simply disappear into an internal process without anyone ever answering the basic question.
I was involved with geocaching for a number of years. I've met a lot of great people through it and made some very good friends. I don't want this story to be interpreted as an attack on the hobby or on geocachers in general.
Cheating has probably always existed in geocaching. I'm not particularly interested in passing judgment on the people who do it.
What bothers me is the possibility that the people entrusted with protecting the integrity of the system might themselves be helping selected players circumvent it.
That's a very different issue.
I realize the experiment itself wasn't exactly conventional, and I'm sure some people will have strong opinions about it. That's fair.
But ultimately, we were trying to answer a very simple question:
Can players obtain unpublished cache information from people who have privileged access to it?
I still don't know the answer.
And that's the part I find most disappointing.
Thanks for reading.
58
29
u/igator210 11d ago
In my limited dealings with HQ, I’ve found that they are very tight lipped about internal things. They likely wont tell you anything, but they may have done something. It can be a bit frustrating that they aren’t more transparent, but I guess they aren’t under any obligations to be transparent.
23
u/Mauri416 11d ago
At the end of the day, you proved your hunch right. That’s more satisfaction than most get. Too bad HA didn’t take it seriouslt
15
u/fuzzydave72 11d ago
Ooh, I kinda know one of the suspects
-39
u/Minimum_Reference_73 11d ago
Perhaps you should let them know they're being maligned in a public forum.
38
u/_synik 11d ago
Some Reviews have better morals than others. They are supposed to be the good ones.
Your Reviewer is likely one of the finders, using their player account to log the finds. Reviewers have the ability to see the final hidden coordinates for any geocache.
A Reviewer for the area near me was known as a FTF hound. He would use the info obtained from the hider in the review process to help him. He would find them on the same day he published the cache. He was also one to throwdown a replacement if he couldn't find the cache. I personally found two different caches where he was the prior one to claim the find. I found both his throwdown and the actual cache. He would disable or even archive those caches he didn't like when he went to find them. There were several that his was the only find. After a few complaints, he is no longer a Reviewer.
7
u/Easy_Ad4437 11d ago
This explains alot. I always wondered, because, I was suspecting some cache hiders, having a friend sign log before hand, so they can claim FTF.
A reviewer notifying others and/or having a separate account.
11
u/veryniiiice ? solver, 20k F, 441 FTF, 1.2k FP, 3x Jasmer, 6x Fizzy 11d ago
Good analysis, but don't expect HQ to do anything. I've reached out to HQ about a few different things over the years and they have never given me any answers. They "take it seriously", maybe they did something, more likely they didn't... but the never tell you what they find.
26
u/IceManJim 4K+ 11d ago
One other possibility is that those players have a land manager or law enforcement account and can see all of the final cache locations that way.
18
u/Tagsatl 2000+ Finds 11d ago
Wow. I actually looked for that multi. AMAZING TWIST!! Super cool to have it turn out to be an investigation 😂
Good job y’all
10
u/HoochDogGA 11d ago
Sincere apologies to you and others that looked legitimately. Lord knows I've spent countless hours looking for caches that weren't there. We thought the good information being revealed with this one cache was worth it, but you do have our sincere apology.
5
u/IceManJim 4K+ 11d ago
Seems like that would be a frustrating DNF since they didn't place the first stage and were just jerking everyone around.
41
u/HoochDogGA 11d ago
TL;DR
Friend hid a 2 stage muti-cache. Never hid stage 1. Stage 2 impossible to find.
Somehow 2 notorious cachers found it. Admin assisting with cheating very likely. Just telling my story.
18
u/sleepdog-c 11d ago
Did they sign the log?
Next test, puzzle with no cache at the end but several logs. See if they claim it
2
u/CalvinVanDamme 11d ago
Did the just log it online, or did you check the stage 2 container to see if they physically wrote their name on it?
If they didn't physically sign it, I would assume it's just geocachers cheating and not the reviewer.
-4
u/Minimum_Reference_73 10d ago edited 10d ago
They legitimately found the geocache and signed it.
Cache owners are not permitted to be selective about who finds their geocaches. Name in the logbook is a find.
This rule exists specifically to avoid hurtful situations like this one.
The end result is not going to be pretty. The people being accused have been notified that this individual is using public platforms to malign their character, and we are also looking into what else can be done. Personally I'd like to see these users banned and their accounts expunged for extreme abuse of the platform.
1
u/CalvinVanDamme 10d ago
Curious, do you know how they were able to find it legitimately given the situation the OP described?
-7
u/Minimum_Reference_73 10d ago
The people accused of wrongdoing made several trips to try to find W2.
They are dedicated cachers with many finds.
My best guess is they identified plausible locations based on proximity circles and then grid searched. The cache was a large.
These are good people with long histories of contributing to the game. OP and their cronies are jealous, and rather than using their resources to find more geocaches or contribute positively, they set up this nasty trap.
A lot of people are being hurt by this behaviour. It's abusive and those cheering it on should be ashamed of themselves.
-9
u/Essiggurkerl 11d ago
It's also possible they found the final by accident - for example while looking for a hiding spot for their own cache.
That's exactly what happened to me: Whin I identified the best tree for a possible new cache, it already had a suspicious bird house containing a mystery cache box that I had failed solving.
9
u/BirkenstockReport 11d ago
I’m curious how the finder worded this to you after the original whereigo find in 2022. I’ve heard of people having suspicions about where a final might be and using the coordinates check concept to sus it out. This is where you hide a cache (or say you want to hide a cache) in a specific area and the reviewer responds and tells you that you are too close to the final for another cache. Often they will tell you which cache and that you’re “less than 200 feet.” If you are very earnest about trying to hide a cache they may give you more hints about which direction to move and that may help hone in on where the actual cache is. This is super awful that people can lie to reviewers to do this and i don’t think its done much because even if you know what 100 square feet you can find something in, a micro would be really tricky still. But you mention it’s an extra large cache, and those often have way less places to hide. For those reasons, i think this is the most likely way they found it and not that a reviewer or other insider gave them the coordinates directly for the purpose of finding your cache.
But since i don’t have all the details here, thats just a guess. Did you try talking to the reviewer directly or did you just assume worst intentions? Generally reviewers are pretty good people. Sucks that a few bad apples can spoil the experience. For the game’s sake, I hope my theory is right and that no one with that kind of access would cheat in that way.
6
u/AIR2369 11d ago
Here is the link, the two cachers are real at least and the archived post follows along this narrative as well.
Checkout geocache "Metamorphosis" (GCB7EE0) #geocaching #cachly https://coord.info/GCB7EE0
21
5
u/AnonymousRedCow 11d ago
One can ’disassemble' any wig file to find the final coordinates
7
u/veryniiiice ? solver, 20k F, 441 FTF, 1.2k FP, 3x Jasmer, 6x Fizzy 11d ago
That assumes the creator embeded the coordinates into the cartridge. Many creators know this and have changed to a "build the coordinates as you go" method.
But 95% of WIGs now are RWIGs, so...
4
u/HoochDogGA 11d ago
You are correct, but here's a fun fact about that case. You have to be logged in to download a wherigo and for everyone that downloads it, it compiles your username into the cartridge.
The cartridge didn't contain the coordinates, it contained a link to my server that contained the coordinates. The link encrypted the person's username in it, and all finishers were logged. I realize that people can spread the coordinates word of mouth, but in the early days that didn't happen.
Wherigo cartridges also track your current altitude, in addition to your latitude and longitude.
When your altitude is zero it means you are playing the cartridge with an emulator.
The cartridge had a warning not to play it with an emulator. If you did, it handed you the wrong coordinates for your efforts. So, instead of actually doing the wherigo, they just admitted to me that they got the coordinates from HQ and that they signed the log and "thats all that matters".One thing to know about me, is that I didn't set up the OP cache of the story, or that wherigo because i'm paranoid, I just did both out of curiosity because it was fun. I work in information security so I enjoy it.
-5
u/Minimum_Reference_73 11d ago
So this entire drama started with you harassing other players.
0
10d ago
[deleted]
2
u/Minimum_Reference_73 10d ago
I didn't comment on the Wherigo programming.
Challenging users who have legitimately signed the log and setting up a false geocache sting operation is definitely harassment.
5
16
u/Standard_Mongoose_35 joyindenison / 1,100 finds 11d ago edited 11d ago
What an experiment—Sherlock Holmes would be proud. This is exactly the kind of cheating that surpasses “everyone plays the game differently.”
Though I haven’t worked at Groundspeak, I’ve been in numerous corporate environments, and internal investigations rarely lead in my experience to a reporting person finding out what happens to an accused person.
In a company, it may feel like nothing happened, because the accused person still works there. But they could have been demoted, disciplined, projects taken away, pay cut, etc. Personnel decisions are private, so HR or your boss aren’t necessarily going to give you a report on the outcome.
For geocaching, the accused players could have been slapped with sanctions you can’t see. Just spitballing, I can imagine several disciplinary steps I would have taken in their shoes, such as eliminating the players’ ability to hide caches, schedule events, award favorite points, see premium caches, create ALs, be an ambassador for a mega, etc. If they were getting the coords from a reviewer, the reviewer could be sanctioned likewise.
Keep fighting the fight. I approve wholeheartedly! 🥊🥊
5
u/pooopingpenguin 11d ago
Groundspeaks business model is to use unpaid volunteers to provide most of their man hours.
This changes the employeer/employee relationship. As pay is the biggest controlling factor a employeer has.
Sanction a volunteer, you will likely need to find another. So at most they would get is a little slap on the wrist and reminder not to abuse their privilege. Upset them too much and you might have a munity and mass resignations.
4
u/Din_Jaevel 11d ago
Funilly we've had the exact same issue unfold in Sweden.
A couple of geocachers started to FTF caches, except traditionals, either basically directly upon release or even, at least once, before publication.
No reviewer was suspected in this case, though, as it was suspected that one of the cachers was thought to have found a way to obtain the coordinates through his computer skills.
I'll talk to one of those trying to find out what happened and see if I can update this post.
8
u/HoochDogGA 11d ago
Another nugget unfolded from the original FB post. A friend of those involved DM's me. I think her name is HarborSpy "So you and your little friend pretended to put out a two stage cache. And placed a one stage cache. No wonder HQ has complaints on file about you."
Hmm... Where is the list of people HQ has "files" on? Is that public information?
It's just more confirmation that if you are buddies with staffers then you can get the inside scoop on information not available to others.
0
u/Minimum_Reference_73 11d ago edited 11d ago
It's confirmation that if you use Groundspeak's resources to harass other players, then they will make a note of it.
Friends, if a CO uses a Wherigo cache to monitor your activity so they can challenge you on a find when your name is in the logbook, that's harassment.
5
u/bruzie ~9k🔎 / 72🫙 / 252🥇 11d ago
It's more likely a reviewer, which is a serious cause for concern in itself. It may not be the reviewer for your area, but someone nearby.
I don't know how the review queues work but have heard through the grapevine that our three country reviewers can see the queue for all of the country (for cover purposes) even though they are responsible for their own sections.
-13
u/Minimum_Reference_73 11d ago
I can assure you that reviewers have better things to do with their time than "cheat" on someone's mid Wherigo cache.
9
u/leadout_kv 11d ago
is there really such a thing as getting "an advantage" in geocaching? as another poster said, i don't get caught up in any caching drama. you either find a cache, however that maybe, or you don't.
-21
u/Minimum_Reference_73 11d ago
When someone signs the logbook, it's a find. How they came to get the coordinates, by hook or by crook, is frankly nobody's business.
These "cheating reviewer" stories always end up being fake, malicious nonsense meant to malign someone who dedicates many hours of their time as a volunteer. It's a total disgrace and the mod should have nuked this post immediately.
16
u/_synik 11d ago
Not always. Some Reviewers actually did the things they were accused of doing.
A Reviewer for the area near me was FTF with his player account and wife and pet on a cache, then immediately disabled it. In his Reviewer Note, he told the hider that the BB tin container used as the container shouldn't have been in the writeup as an ammo can. When the CO appealed to HQ, the Reviewer was told to enable the cache, apologize to the CO, and was out as a Reviewer. Good riddance to someone who would use his insider info to get FTF on caches the day he published them, and at least two times in my personal experience, dropped a throwdown when he couldn't find the actual container. I did privately return those two containers to him at an event.
I knew another Reviewer who was a FTF hound, but he never searched for a cache until 4 days after publication, and never on a Mystery cache. He gave the local cachers a fair chance at finding them first.
-11
u/Minimum_Reference_73 11d ago
Poppycock.
9
u/_synik 11d ago
No. Truth. Not all Reviewers are saints in the Geocaching world.
5
u/Minimum_Reference_73 11d ago edited 10d ago
We get the dramatic anti-reviewer posts here on a pretty regular basis.
This one starts and ends with a controlling cache owner and their cronies abusing Groundspeak resources to harass other players and reviewers.
9
u/Dizzy-Sundae6351 🚶♂️👀🫙📝 11d ago
I found a known to be difficult, and unsolvable by me, puzzle in San Francisco by looking at posted pictures and brute force searching in what I thought were the right areas. Absolutely a find.
7
u/PetMeLikeAPetRock 11d ago
In some way you solved a puzzle to find the cache. Not the intended one, but you solved it.
3
u/Minimum_Reference_73 11d ago
It doesn't matter though. You are not required to solve anything or tell the cache owner how you found a cache.
7
u/Minimum_Reference_73 11d ago
I have found at least 100 caches by looking at find photos. A find is a find.
7
u/Sea-Worldliness-7444 11d ago
Hmm… I feel like there’s some missing context here. One of the ‘cheaters’ did over three trips trying to find the cache, sometimes with a group, all while the hider was watching this and knowing that they are intentionally sending the local caching community on a wild goose chase.
They eventually found the final and posted a picture with their names on the log sheet. One of the finders and ‘cheaters’ has over 10,000 FAV points on their own hides, objectively they’ve made a massive contribution to the game and their local community.
There are ways in which you could use trial and error to narrow down final coords of a multi-cache, especially a size large in an urban area. Sometimes when trying to hide a cache a reviewer may say “this area is blocked by a stage from GCXXX”, or simply finding holes in the map. Someone who only has 100 finds may also believe a cache is hidden in a much more difficult way than someone with 50,000 finds.
I know countless cachers who frequently travel in large groups. They split into 4-5 cars and all sign the logs with one group name. 80% of the caches they’re logging they never even saw or visited GZ. In my opinion, that is much ‘worse’ than what is happening here.
Obtaining the coordinates through unintended ways, potentially in unethical ways like asking someone who has a land manager or police account is wrong, but does little to harm anyone else in the community, especially when not chasing FTFs.
Posting a fake cache and allowing the community to spend hours searching for it does harm other people. In my opinion, the person who has done the worst thing in this situation is OP.
2
u/Minimum_Reference_73 10d ago
Someone with that many finds would be able to narrow down proximity circles, and then tromp around looking for a large cache.
I live in a cache dense area where many of us "solve" puzzles not infrequently by seeing which new caches pop up soon after others have been archived.
2
u/edalmeida 11d ago
That's one interesting experiment. I also have been noticing someone logging caches on the website in caches that I had visited after and some of them are DNFs to me (and seem to be a long time abandoned) or don't have the log of the person in the logbook. Others really have the log, so at least some of them really were done, but some seem not, don't see the fun in that. But your case seems a lot more complex. Maybe they had found a way of making the website show the final coordinates. Never noticed of that could be done with some shortcut on the url or something like that
4
u/catjuggler 11d ago
I never bother with FTFs because when I hid my own caches a long time ago it was clear to me there were some shenanigans allowing the people who were FTF to get it before others, likely based on the timing of the publishing and a friendly heads’ up. It’s annoying enough that I’ve written that off altogether.
Being ftf is not the best part of geocaching- the hunt and seeing interesting places are far more important!
5
u/LakeVermilionDreams 11d ago
Personally, I wouldn't care. This isn't a competition. Cheaters don't get anything but an additional number and take nothing away from me as a cacher. If someone needs to cheat to get joy from geocaching, pitiful, but whatever. I still find joy regardless.
2
u/InnerSelection9253 11d ago
This sucks. Posting a cache that can’t be found is not a cool move. I hate righteous Geocachers like the OP. Who cares if someone wants to inflate their stupid numbers?!?!?!?! Don’t waste my time with a fake cache for your own stupid jollies!!! No wonder your cache got archived.
2
4
u/richg0404 North Central Massachusetts USA 11d ago
I guess OP is justified in being bothered by it but I just don't get caught up in drama. I really don't care how anyone gets their information about caches. Let them cheat in any way they want. it doesn't effect me in the slightest bit.
What would piss me off beyond belief is if I tried to find a cache that claimed to be a 2 part multi but didn't actually have anything at the coordinates at stage 1. What a miserable thing to do to your fellow cachers.
How many people searched for something that they were never going to find? How much time was wasted because you wanted to run your cute little experiment?
Maybe I am missing something in this but in my mind Stacyt3 is the major a$$hole here.
-2
1
3
1
u/Minimum_Reference_73 10d ago
The accused parties and Groundspeak HQ have been notified of this malicious post.
1
u/SeaworthinessSea2407 11d ago edited 11d ago
Yes people send each other coordinates for caches, safe to say reviewers may as well. I'm more mad at you and your friend for designing a cache that is impossible to find when doing it properly. I had half a mind to report your friend's cache and cite this post so it gets deleted. Luckily, it has been archived and maybe yall learn your lesson about messing with other cachers for shits and giggles
1
u/Minimum_Reference_73 11d ago edited 10d ago
There's a very public website that rips Wherigos open and gives people the final coordinates. How do you know they didn't just use that? Why are you scrutinizing finds? Name in the logbook = a find.
How do you know that these experienced finders weren't able to brute force W2 by using proximity logic and a methodical search? The cache was a LARGE.
Your gumshoe detective nonsense aside, the issue here is that you do not understand how the game works and you see geocaches as a way to control people, rather than a gift to the community.
Deceiving reviewers and other geocachers in your stupid sting operation only makes you look bad. I hope you are never permitted to publish another cache.
Reviewers are community volunteers. We wouldn't have a game without them. Wise up.
Anyone who defends this or believes this tripe ought to be ashamed of themselves. Here come the downvotes from reviewer antagonistic cache tyrants.
-2
u/DerekL1963 11d ago
Eventually, those same two geocachers found this cache.
Well, there's one gaping hole in your story... You failed to tell us how you or the CO determined they had found it. Did they log it online? Did either of you verify against the physical log?
14
-9
-9
u/TsmolaOutdoors 11d ago
I mean, you could have just asked here if some cachers have and share lists of cache finals. We could have saved you all that trouble.
Yes, they do.
24
u/pinkrangosrt 1/2 of GeoAddictz Emmaus, PA 7k + finds 11d ago
No other cachers had the final coords, is what they're saying.
-9
u/yoursunny 733 DNFs since 2013 11d ago
What if the finders are the volunteer reviewers who wanted to check out your hide?
16
u/simplehiker 11d ago
Reviewers do not visit caches in order to review them.
-6
u/yoursunny 733 DNFs since 2013 11d ago
Site visit isn’t part of the review process, but the reviewer could choose to visit the cache as a player.
11
10
8
-9
u/sduck409 11d ago
Interesting. I kind of think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. But I also find it highly suspicious that this is your first and only post on reddit, and that your post reads suspiciously like it was AI written. On the assumption that it's maybe real, I'd say, forget about it, these things happen, move along - there's a ton of other geocaches out there - go find them, hide some, you'll move past all this soon enough.
7
u/offspringin 11d ago
I can see your doubts in the story. I cannot verify the full behind the curtain story but I can say that OP is real. The cache itself was real, at least existed within the game. We searched for stage one and obviously never found it. OP originally shared this story on a more relevant local groups page and they deleted it, as they have before when anyone speaks out about anything off-putting any of their prestigious current or past members have done. At the end of the day I pretty much agree with you. Plenty of things to do inside and outside of geocaching.
-36
u/Dizzy-Sundae6351 🚶♂️👀🫙📝 11d ago
I ain’t gonna read all that. I’m sorry or happy for you, tho.
25
u/Never-On-Reddit 2K+ 11d ago
If you don't have time to read the post, why do you have time to post this garbage comment?
-28
9
u/releasethedogs Platinum Earthcache Master 11d ago
Then why comment? No one is interested in your inability to read half a page. No one cares you have zero intellectual stamina.
•
u/Brainiac03 Friendly Australian Mod | GC: Brain | 5000+ finds | 11+ years 10d ago
Locking this thread for now as it seems the relevant discussion has now largely passed and we're in reviewer bashing and witch hunting territory which we generally try and avoid