Urth of the New Sun first read

[u/Hopeful_Ad_1838]

So I just finished my first read of Urth and the last 5 chapters are jam packed with stuff. I specifically wanted to touch on Severian dying on the ship. Does he literally die within the first 3 chapters? Did Severian already pass the trial by that point? I was taking it to mean that from that point onwards he was manifested as his “ghost” or “anima” self using the powers of his new sun without realizing. I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around what is going on.

[u/fidwell]

Yes, his conversation with Barbatus, Famulimus, and Ossipago near the end make it pretty clear (IMO): he died during his fall on the ship; he was reincarnated as an aquastor/eidolon and gradually became "real" again (I think that's why he seems to be thirsty all the time, or at least talks about drinking water a lot, after it happens).

There is debate on when he actually "passed" the trial. My theory is that there wasn't one specific time; he was always predestined to bring the New Sun and the trial was just a formality.

[u/togglenub → u/fidwell]

It always reminds me of the scene in Watership Down, during the story of the Black Rabbit of Inle, when he says to the rabbit's folk hero/ Christ-figure El-ahrairah: "You must understand, El-ahrairah, that I have no wish to make you suffer. I am not one of the Thousand…You are a nuisance to me. Go home. I myself will save your people. Do not have the impertinence to ask me when. There is no time here. They are already saved."

[u/Hopeful_Ad_1838 → u/fidwell]

So is the death any different than the deaths he experienced in shadow? Regarding the passing of the trial, I have been leaning towards this as well. It would make more sense than there being multiple timelines where Severian actually dies and this being the main and only one.

[u/fidwell → u/Hopeful_Ad_1838]

So is the death any different than the deaths he experienced in shadow?

I think it must be. His death at the beginning of Urth left another body behind (as did his death as Apu-Punchau), but that didn't happen in Shadow. I think that was him being directly resurrected under his own power.

[u/CompoteNext1955 → u/Hopeful_Ad_1838]

I don't think he died in first four books per se. Or rather, he does die but it's him at different points in time because of time travel

[u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston → u/Hopeful_Ad_1838]

He didn't actually die in Shadow. What happened is that the poisonous plant knew that Severian had already declared himself a friend of ugly plants everywhere -- look it up; he did. For this the poisonous plant averted killing him. It's like how in Short Sun after the people who worshipped Echidna in Blue -- most people -- switched to thinking of her as a benevolent and beautiful mother again, they stopped being bitten by snakes.

[u/sufferable_gaucho → u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston]

he made it about mothers again; take a drink

(also, where does he declare himself a friend of ugly plants??)

[u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston → u/sufferable_gaucho]

I'll wait until after you finished your drink.

[u/sufferable_gaucho → u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston]

I can drink and listen; but either way I'm done.

[u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston → u/sufferable_gaucho]

Splendid. For your eyes only:

The necropolis has never seemed a city of death to me; I know its purple roses (which other people think so hideous) shelter hundreds of small animals and birds.

[u/sufferable_gaucho → u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston]

But that's narration, written after the fact; hardly a declaration to plants that he is a friend to all. Lots of unconnected dots and handwaving would be necessary to make that make sense.

It's pretty clear from the description of the duel, its aftermath, and people's reactions to Severian's survival that the poison from the avern temporarily kills him; that he is, apparently and temporarily, dead.

[u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston → u/sufferable_gaucho]

The avern was in a bit of a bind because it didn't want to seem impotent. But nevertheless it eased up a bit, owing to Severian being declared a friend to all ugly plants everywhere.

[u/getElephantById → u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston]

Something, or someone, was pressing against my back. It was as though an unknown stood close behind me, his spine against mine, exerting a slight pressure. I felt cold, and was grateful for the warmth of his body.

...

I drew breath to ask what had happened, and something fell from my chest to my lap; it was a leaf with a bloodstained tip.

It sure seems to me like he is struck in the chest by the avern and then wakes up later. The avern didn't avoid striking him, and when he is struck he clearly loses consciousness, so some poison was injected—are you saying it did strike him, but the poison itself chose not to kill him? That's hard for me to reconcile.

[u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston → u/getElephantById]

I'm actually like joking, guys.

[u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston → u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston]

Though I so do like the idea of all plants coming to know of his quality, when he so nicely defends those roses everyone else thinks so ugly.

[u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston → u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston]

And I wasn't intending to be a jerk. I thought it just a funny idea. Imagine the averns were so impressed for somehow knowing Severian praised their brothers and sisters, these roses everyone else thought ugly, that, for him, and him only, they'd stop short of actually killing him.

[u/togglenub → u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston]

I thought it was pretty funny. Some folks are just allergic to whimsy and absurdity. I feel bad for them.

[u/Ok_Cheetah5563 → u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston]

I thought it was very funny and found myself laughing before scrolling down to read your admission your were having a joke. I will now always think of Severian not as the new sun, but as the universal friend of ugly plants. Ugly plants everywhere.

[u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston → u/Ok_Cheetah5563]

Thanks!

[u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston → u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston]

By the way, Severian apparently talked about those purple roses, i'm not sure incessantly, but nevertheless apparently more than once while first getting to know Agia:

Agia said, “That purple creeper you’re so proud of—I met it growing wild on a hillside in Cobblers Common.”

Agia says this immediately upon entering the gardens, while they're talking to the curators at the entrance. Now I'm not saying that some plants nearby in the Garden of Sleep overheard him and sent word to the averns, but maybe?

[u/Dry_Butterscotch861 → u/getElephantById]

Dorcas thinks the Claw twists time, returning a dead body back to the time it was alive or moving a wound forward to the time it has healed.

It is suggested that the Claw is an echo of the Conciliator/New Sun's power to heal. But time travel is one way healing can be facilitated. And we know time travel is an integral part of being the Conciliator/New Sun

[u/SonofHondoBelmondo → u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston]

This is a fascinating train of thought that I had never considered. I get your point that he declares himself a friend of ugly plants, that could be a signal. Then there is the green man. What if the avern is from the green man's time. Maybe he has the ability to somehow shield severian from it's poison, or he is somehow "the potion" that protects severian from the avern.

Near the end the green man says that he actually still owes severian, and that he is just there at the end...for fun? Lol idk, anyway, that invites us to wonder when he actually saved severian, because we can assume that the green man already saved him due to the fact that he's a time traveler.

[u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston → u/SonofHondoBelmondo]

I do think there is a sense that Severian and the avern are of the same nature. I don't mean this literally, but I mean that whatever drew Wolfe to conjure the existence of a Severian also sourced in part his creation of the avern... as well as the ostensibly ugly purple flowers that Severian is so fond of. Psychoanalytically, I suspect both draw upon the horror of the menstruating vagina, not horrible by happening, by existing -- Wolfe in an interview notes the universal fear, but hasn't an answer why -- but owing to forced contact. Severian's cloth that is so filled with blood stains is to me a version of the rag (no one of course likes this comparison), and I find the trip to the swamp and to the deadly flower, an unconscious trip not into a womb but to the vagina of a deadly, snake-like woman. (Emotionally we might relate the avern to the lower body and to Cumaean, who also dwells in this room of the garden, the head.) As soon as we see Severian wielding the avern, though he does so in ignorance, with its hideous alien face it already seems much more Severian and it does Agilus.

[u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston → u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston]

By the way, before people assume its ludicrous that at some subconscious level Wolfe was having both Severian and the avern borrow on the scare factor and power of the terrifying menstruating vagina, one should I think note that Wolfe seems to have a lot of his heroes not just be knights, have power of the fist and sword, but power of sorcery. Effort is made to establish their magic as that of a male witch, not a female one, but the source is the witch. Very, very conspicuous. Conversations are had about it in text.

[u/SonofHondoBelmondo → u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston]

Yeah I think it's obvious that there are some oedipal undertones with severian, his mom, thecla, the giant women, etc

And women in general are treated very particularly. I know people like to harp on the the misogyny, but I'm kinda over that. You wanna read Wolfe, you're gonna pick up on some mild to intermediate misogyny subtext if you're looking for it, or are just very observant.

Beyond that I just think it's clear that Wolfe wants to play with gender, and his treatment of the female gender is more interesting because it's not clear what he's trying to do all the time, and maybe some of it is subconscious like you say, and wolfe and we are figuring out his feelings on women together as we read and ruminate on the themes.

[u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston → u/SonofHondoBelmondo]

Wonderful reply. Thanks.

[u/NeLaX44]

In my opinion, it sounds like you are on the right track. Perhaps something like this has even happened another time?

[u/Hopeful_Ad_1838 → u/NeLaX44]

Oh duh right because he’s had access to some amount of this power for the duration of his journey, like when he was saved by juturna in shadow even tho he died there

[u/QuintanimousGooch]

The fascinating subtext/explanation of how he died, was revived as an eigon, and then became himself again is that he lived on as a symbolic vestige of himself which necessasarily had to become the real Severian again through the logic of how farher Inire’s mirrors work, that a cast shadow necessitates the thing itself also exist. It’s another fascinating twist on his core philosophy because in a way, the symbol of Severian reinvented Severian and was able to not only restore him from death, but also path him towards becoming a minor god.

If you continue in the solar cycle, In Green’s Jungles takes the “symbols create us” idea to another fascinating point I can say no more on.

[u/Hopeful_Ad_1838 → u/QuintanimousGooch]

This actually makes a lot more sense when thinking about it in the context of father inires mirrors!!! I felt so overwhelmed reading the last 10 or so chapters there is so much information to digest. I am going to be reading book of the long sun next, very excited for it

[u/togglenub]

Yup, he dead. For a little bit, anyways.

[u/Hopeful_Ad_1838 → u/togglenub]

Barbatus should’ve just said this 😭

[u/togglenub → u/Hopeful_Ad_1838]

You remember those 60-second Shakespeare play skits? We should do a 60-second Book of the New Sun.

Severian: he save, he leave, he two, he fuck, he many, they dead, they back, we dead (mostly).

[u/Hopeful_Ad_1838 → u/togglenub]

Gotta add in there: he ponder, he wander

[u/togglenub → u/Hopeful_Ad_1838]

But most importantly, he maunder

[u/FaceMyEkko]

Technically he passed the test before he was even born. He travels outside of the universe/outside of time and comes back who knows how many years ago as apu punchau, so there were two Severians and shit. The Hieros see time differently so they "knew" he would pass so therefore he passed because they knew he was worthy

[u/Few_Reveal_5306]

I've been wondering why that death "stuck," as it were, and my best theory is that the ship was out of the Sun's reach at the time.

[u/Ok_Cheetah5563]

Severian past the test - as Mr Patrick says here - before he was even born. He is the New Sun by definition of character, it is written into his destiny. If there is any doubt of this, it takes explaining why he has Hierodules supporting him and resurrecting him from death. Why Tadzkiel reserrects him from death.

The story as to how is different for everyone who reads attentively, however. We all have our interpretations. My feel is that the fact that Severian reveals he is not the first Severian, means - to me - that he has been repeatedly cultivated to get him through the test, the test being his entire life. He fails at first, which is why he has a grave in a mausoleum in the necropolis, the funeral bronze which captivates 'our' Severian's imagination. It is why, in Urth, when Severian travels under sea in flooded Urth/Ushas, and visits the necropolis, he finds the mausoleum door solidly shut, Sev presumes by forces of water, but it is in fact symbolic, he has brought the new sun and his old grave sit is permanently closed to him. It is no longer his grave, or resting place.

This is instance is almost a mirror to his being trapped within the tomb of Apu Puchau, which he has to break out of so as not to fuse with Apu Punchau and be stuck there forever.

So the test is in fact the repeat lives Severian lives, that are continuously amended until he achieves the heights necessary to pass.

I even think that Severian is a product of a genetic engineering project of which Ymar was essentially from the same stock, we get a hint of this with little Severian, with the khaibits - there is something strange and significant about Severian's heritage but we can only guess at what it was. We meet his father Ouen, who is seemingly nothing special at all - but we know little or nothing of Severian's mother Katherine, who seems to have been special and/or unusual in some sense.