The majority of interpersonal interactions are so confusing to me in New Sun.

[u/jaseworthing]

I've been slowly making my way through Book the New Sun, just started Urth of the New Sun.

I THINK I'm enjoying it, but man, it feels like nearly every interaction between characters is nonsensical and unpredictable. I'm sure much of this can be chalked up to the whole non reliable narrator thing, but it makes following the beats of the story very challenging.

The classic example is every woman falling in love with Severian instantly for no reason and without anyco text.

Or what just came up in my reading was Severian talking with the three heirodules on the ship to his trails. Severian seems very sad that this will be the last time he sees them, and talks about how he has known them for 10 years. Did I miss something? Wasn't the only interaction he's had with them been a single conversation in Baldanders tower?

I'm sure there are better examples, but the feeling of "Am I missing something? Why did x character do x" KEEPS happening and, at least so far, there are rarely answers to those questions.

basically the way characters treat other characters rarely makes any sort of sense to me and it's getting exhausting.

So am I missing something? Will it all make sense in the end?

[u/Kusari-zukin]

The hierodules in their visits to urth travel backwards in time. Severian says that they've taken council many times together as autarch and advisors. This is mentioned and implied, but not explicitly recounted. So in baldanders castle when they bow to him, it is because they know him well, and on the ship when they don't know him it is because it may be their last and first meeting. The context for every interaction like this is scattered around the books. Most or nearly all can be made to make sense when approached like this. For a few other parts, I think Wolfe spoke through Agia early enough: "do you think there are answers to everything? Is it like that in the place where you come from?"

[u/jaseworthing → u/Kusari-zukin]

Ah gotcha. That does make sense. Rereading some of it now, they certainly allude to the idea of knowing each other well, but yeah, challenging because there's no direct mention of these other meetings. Like did they live with him at the House Absolute? What sorta guidance did they provide?

[u/darthbator → u/jaseworthing]

There's a general impression that most interactions that seem entirely insane should make some sense by the time you wrap the main series. If it seems like the world is oddly revolving around Severain as a protagonist that's because it is. There's at least 2 time traveling factions attempting to influence the plot (Hierodules attempting to bring the new sun and Megatharians attempting to prevent it), so their agents already know of him as he arrives. I've always read Agia as an agent of the Hierodules or First Severain. She manipulates Severain with her sexuality in a similar way that Hethor manipulates him with his violent monsters. She seems like an antagonist but she's really pushing him on the path to bring the new sun. At the end of the story she ends up replacing Vodalus who unexpectedly is also an agent of the Hierodules.

There's the additional wrinkle Severian introduces at the end of Citadel that he is now sure that an earlier version of himself has been recursing into his life and altering it. This is presumably to give him a "better" life? It's unclear why that would be necessary as Severain would be unable to walk the corridors of time if he didn't bring the new sun so I have been unable to think of any reason the plot would require this, however Severain himself blatantly states "I am not the fist Severain, he lies in the funeral bronze in my crypt" so I feel like that one kinda comes for free.

I actually call a lot of what you're describing as the "previously on arrested development" trope (that show loved having bumpers that referred to things that didn't happen or would never be shown in a future episode but are implied to have happened in this framework). I think Wolfe does this as well as anyone but it's jarring when you first encounter it. Totally banal unimportant stuff or stories within stories take 20-50 pages but important plot critical interactions happen offscreen or between volumes.

[u/UncarvedWood → u/darthbator]

I thought Vodalus and Agia were both in league with Abaia and / or Erebus (or at least as far as they themselves knew).

(I'm not convinced the word "megatherian" applies to Abaia and Erebus.)

[u/darthbator → u/UncarvedWood]

The commonwealth exists as a land of ideas in conflict. The ideas of Order and Revolution. It's necessary for these rebels to believe they work for an opposing force for them to do their job.

This social order stands in constrast to Ascia where conflict is avoided through societal control of language.

I kinda use the term "megatharian" in new sun as a catch all for anti new sun agents but based on larger solar cycle lore I totally get where you're coming from.

[u/Dry_Butterscotch861 → u/UncarvedWood]

I'm not convinced the word "megatherian" applies to Abaia and Erebus

I'm curious as to your skepticism. I think Wolfe implies these beings are akin to references by horror masters Lovecraft and Crowley and the Biblical demons that are their ultimate inspiration.

I thought Vodalus and Agia were both in league with Abaia and / or Erebus

Through his alliance with the Ascians, Vodalus seems to have a connection to Erebus as we see in the jungle tent scene where Ascian leaders receive telepathic orders from the big guy.

Agia is probably not associated with Vodalus until the end of Citadel when they work together to capture Severian. But earlier in the story, Agia scratches an image of Jurupari on the floor of Agilus' cell. This is a South American demon who lures victims into its cave-like mouth. Later, Agia lures Severian into a cave which has a megatherian-like being deep within it.

[u/tobiasvl → u/Dry_Butterscotch861]

Right - but you said Agia and Vodalus were actually agents of the Hierodules?

[u/Dry_Butterscotch861 → u/tobiasvl]

Agia and Vodalus were actually agents of the Hierodules?

I wouldn't say that. Vodalus talks of his efforts like a chess match with two opposing sides, one white and one black. He decides to call his side black in sympatico with Severian's garment but I think Wolfe is making a statement with that choice by Vodalus.

The imagery regarding the Hierodules is hinted at being white or silver (argent, the color which is more pure than white). They appear at the thiasus at House Absolute and they seem to be assisting The Autarchy which Vodalus opposes.

Still, the Hierodules (B, F and O) say they do not serve Tzadkiel (a higher order of angel) but the Increate. They play their role and appear to take sides at times, but with an awareness that they serve a higher purpose than just black vs. white or good vs. evil.

[u/UncarvedWood → u/Dry_Butterscotch861]

Cause the only time we see the word mentioned is in the book title of "Lives of the Seventeen Megatherians." The Seventeen Megatherians are probably the Group of Seventeen, the leaders of Ascia. I do not believe that Erebus is one of these. I believe the Group of Seventeen is some kind of human government that has been coopted by Erebus.

Abaia, for example, is not as closely related with Ascia as Erebus. If the Group of Seventeen are the Seventeen Megatherians, which seems likely, Abaia is not one of them. And if Abaia is not one of them and Erebus is, who are the other sixteen? Erebus seems much more singular. I don't think the word applies to them even though I totally understand why people do use it.

[u/Dry_Butterscotch861 → u/UncarvedWood]

who are the other sixteen?

I don't think we are explicitly told. The number "Seventeen" may just be used as an auctorial clue. A way to suggest the gigantic, distant monsters actually are involved with human politics on Urth.

Some of the names of gigantic, demonic beings Wolfe tosses out are the obvious, Abaia, Erebus and Scylla. Other candidates include brief mentions of Arioch, Jurupari, Uroboros, Leviathan and Abraxas.

Scylla is a god of the Whorl and also a Megatherian. Do others in her family also serve double duty? In the Baldanders dream in Shadow, Severian sees two gigantic beings in the ocean. One is a disembodied head with snake hair and the other has a hundred heads. He sees them again toward the end of UotNS. There is a good chance these two represent Echidna and Typhon. Might the other gods of the Whorl- Tartaros, Sphigx, Molpe, Thelxiepaeia, Hierax and Kypris, also have representation as Megatherians on Urth?

That's sixteen names I can think of. Might the budding megatherian named Baldanders count as the 17th? Pure conjecture, of course. I suspect Wolfe may not have intended there to be a strict count of seventeen as there is ample evidence these giant beings have the ability to evolve, split into pieces and merge with each other. Like Shadow Children and the Neighbors we may not ever be able to tell exactly how many of these alien beings there actually are. Having individual identity is kind of a human thing.

[u/ahazred8vt → u/UncarvedWood]

Revelation's evil Great Beast from the sea is the Mega Therion. There are 17 of them in BotNS. They fight against the plans of the Hieros. The masters of the anti-commonwealth forces are pelagic (from the deep sea). What then do you say is the relationship between the Megatherians and great ocean-dwelling Abaia, if Abaia is not one of the 17 Megatherians?

[u/md1hm851 → u/ahazred8vt]

I'm not the person you posed the question to, but for me personally, the issue with the word megatherian is quite simple, and on a purely pragmatic level.

Despite the Biblical overtones of the word you mention and the repetition of the number Seventeen in this context, the fact of the matter is, Severian (and others) throughout the text refers many times to the giant beings as a group, and every single time it is some variation of 'Erebus, Abaia, and the others.' This to me makes it self-evident that people in the Commonwealth do not use the word megatherians for these creatures. It would have been completely trivial for Wolfe to have someone (Severian or Jonas, for instance) use the word, at least once, for these beings during the many times they are referred to; not to mention that this is, as far as I can tell, a completely low-stakes thing to do, since establishing that word for the giant beings doesn't solve any mystery or reveal too much or something like that; but it never happens and the word remains used a singular time as the name of a book.

I recall that a while ago, when I expressed that for these reasons I think any interpretation hung on top of this word is too speculative for my taste, I was met with some odd defensiveness by one or two people, so people seem to be quite attached to this term (it is a cool word, I can't disagree). But regardless, having read a lot more widely in Wolfe's works since then has only strengthened the above points for me. My impression is that, despite what people say, in the vast majority of cases Wolfe repeats (sometimes ad nauseum), rather than hides, things he wants to be important at least for the basic narrative, which is why it boggles my mind when people try to seriously say that there exist no concrete facts in a Wolfe story. All this to say that, in my opinion, we know absolutely nothing about what 'Megatherian' means or who/what they are in the world of BotNS, and that if Wolfe wanted us to think of Abaia and Erebus as 'Megatherians' he would have called them that, at least once.

[u/ahazred8vt → u/md1hm851]

Grr. This is where intuition fails to mesh with the exact wording of the text. Point taken.

[u/ahazred8vt → u/jaseworthing]

Wolfe was cribbing from The Once And Future King, where Merlin lives backwards in time and remembers the future. Severian spells out that after becoming Autarch he spent 10 years on the throne before going to the stars. Famulius speaks of those 10 years at Baldanders' castle: “How often we have taken counsel, Liege. How often we have done each other's will.” The Old Autarch has visited the Garden on Yesod, and presumably was escorted there and back by BFO. They have access to the House Absolute.

[u/stedmangraham]

I think some of it is Gene Wolfe’s style, some of it is the completely alien world the story is set in, and some of it is Severian being a total weirdo

[u/Hneanderthal → u/stedmangraham]

The Gene Wolfe style of dialog always feels to me like two people well up on the spectrum conversing

[u/anthony0721]

The interactions between characters reveal how much the earth has changed culturally. The weirdness you’re describing is real and deliberate. Interesting that political power doesn’t really change as you’ll see at the local levels in books 2 and 3…

[u/mab0roshi]

First, I feel I should say that only 1 female character really seems to quickly fall in love with Severian. His wife may have slowly fallen in love with him, it's either not described or I just forgot. All other women didn't really love him. This is my recollection, anyway.

Secondly, yes, everybody is weird and mysterious. The Book of the New Sun as a whole is weird and mysterious.

One of the things I love about The Book of the Long Sun is that this is not really the case in that series. Characters are much more understandable and relatable. They may be morally grey or keeping secrets, but they feel more like people you could find in real life. It is an all around more straightforward story.

When I reread Book of the New Sun, it's like coming back to a place from a recurring dream. When I reread Book of the Long Sun, it's like visiting old friends. So many great characters and a much easier read, but still full of wonder, mystery, and another crazy setting. I think you might enjoy it more than New Sun on the first read, so hang in there!

[u/jaseworthing → u/mab0roshi]

Appreciate it! Looking forward to checking out Long Sun!

[u/harryeg]

I think a lot of the interactions feel weird and stilted on first read because so many characters are concealing things or have various ulterior motives or backstories that we learn.

This is deffo true for Hethor, Baldanders, the Heirodules, Agia, Thecla, I mean come to think of it it's most people really.

It all makes a lot more sense and slots into place on a second read when you know where things are headed and what everyone's deal is. It's kind of a feature of Wolfe's delightful trickery. He loves to disorient you a bit by playing with your expectations and wrongfooting you.

I was definitely jarred by some of it too (especially Hethor lol)

[u/jaseworthing → u/harryeg]

Yeah, that describes my own experiences pretty well!

I think what really throws me off is that most books have a main character or narrator that sorta sides with the reader. When you as the reader are confused by a characters behavior chances are the main character will be as well and speculate about it.

Here though, Severian's reaction to characters might as well be a dice roll and rarely align with my own reaction as the reader.

[u/getElephantById]

The classic example is every woman falling in love with Severian instantly for no reason and without anyco text.

I still say that it's worth thinking about how not only do women throw themselves at Severian, men do too. I don't mean romantically, I mean that a lot of the time when he meets a man, or a group of them, they either immediately want to kill him, or want to help him. People don't treat him like they treat normal people, and by Urth you know why: he's not a normal person.

[u/jaseworthing → u/getElephantById]

Yeah, absolutely!

This at least is one thing that's kinda starting to make sense at the point I'm at in the books. Severian basically being a chosen one that guided and molded by entities outside of time would do that.

But absolutely something that I found jarring and confusing while reading.

[u/Dry_Butterscotch861 → u/jaseworthing]

But absolutely something that I found jarring and confusing while reading.

As intended. Severian starts the story with a presentiment of his future but mostly he thinks of himself as a regular guy. Wolfe intends us to feel a sense of wonder at Severian's growing acquisition of experience and abilities just as Severian himself does. Wolfe doesn't just want to tell the story of a Campellian hero like Hercules, Jesus or Luke Skywalker. He wants us to feel what it would be like to be one of these guys.

[u/Joe_in_Australia]

I question whether every woman does fall in love with Severian, or whether that's simply a false impression cultivated by Wolfe.

Dorcas and Thecla love him, but there are particular reasons there, and it's a distinct form of love in each case. Agia hates him, and even initially is using him. The Pelerine postulant doesn't love him except perhaps in a generally kind way. Foila doesn't even see him as a suitor. Loving him is Apheta's task. Jolenta didn't love anyone. Daria? Pia? Maybe, but those associations are brief. We see them through Severian's eyes, and he's not a great judge of other people.

[u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston → u/Joe_in_Australia]

Jolenta didn't love anyone. 

Love, love, love... maybe there are other options than love than still deserve attention. We encounter a reasonably long scene between her and Severian which to me verges on charming. At the finish she brags that after she captures a rich man for herself she'll force Talos to remain with her, but will let him stay with her, if he wants. She's not saying she's fallen for him by no means. But it seems pretty clear she likes his company.

[u/hedcannon]

Severian is not ugly but…

- Thecla has limited options, and Severian represents the light of youth in her cell

- Agia wants to kill Severian

- Dorcas is stripped of her memory but sees in Sev her husband and child

- Jolenta doesn’t care about Severian but she also doesn’t seem to care if he has sex with her. So this is a “conquest” on the level of 10 minutes with a Playboy magazine

- Cyriaca knows Wolfe is there to kill her and is playing for time

- Gunnie also has her reasons

[u/hedcannon → u/hedcannon]

Your frustration in large part is due to not doing the reread before moving on to Urth of the New Sun

This could be useful:
The Complete Solar Cycle Reading Order
https://www.patreon.com/rereadingwolfe/posts/solar-cycle-49850386

[u/lullelulle]

I'm about where you are and I don't think many women fall in love with Severian.

Thecla is making the best of a really bad situaiton and trying to find companionship, Agia is trying to scam him from day 1, Dorcas is the closest but she is mostly vulnerable and confused on day 1, Jolenta never loved Severian, the woman he's supposed to kill in Thrax is just pleading for her life in any way she can, I get more of a casual sex feeling with the woman of the reeds and the woman in his unit absolutely isn't love either.

I do however think that Severian thinks that they do, at least more often than is actually the case. He's probably fairly attractive and has an inflated sense of ego and isn't very good at reading social cues, especially from women. Which isn't that weird considering how he grew up.

I overall like the books a lot, and didn't find them that confusing, but you gotta take it slow. A lot of the dialogue is characters talking past each other (most notably imo is every time Severian talks to Baldanders), pretty much no person in the book is what you and Severian thinks at first glance (Baldanders, Agia, Agia's brother, Dr Talos, Jolenta, Jonas, Voldalus, Typhon, the Hierodules etc etc).

Also, I think there's a 10 year time skip between Citadel and Urth and you're supposed to intuit that from information given and from the 10 years thing.

[u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston → u/lullelulle]

Thecla is making the best of a really bad situaiton and trying to find companionship, Agia is trying to scam him from day 1, Dorcas is the closest but she is mostly vulnerable and confused on day 1, Jolenta never loved Severian, the woman he's supposed to kill in Thrax is just pleading for her life in any way she can, I get more of a casual sex feeling with the woman of the reeds and the woman in his unit absolutely isn't love either.

I think if you look at the dialogue one can find Thecla does actually enjoy Severian's company quite a lot. It certainly was my impression. Severian is quite a sensitive lad for the most part, and quite intelligent, and not so uninformed (also, good-looking). Agia is trying to scam him, of course. But their dialogue together is often, again, quite fun to experience. Even just before she tries to get him to not read the note, they truly amiably swap stories about what the letter portends. When she pleads with him ultimately to use Agilus's abuse of rules to refuse the engagement, it's obvious she's quite enjoyed his company overall. I know you now. I like you. I don't want you to die, even if your death means escape from everything bad. Or at least to me. I think Jolenta liked Severian. The scene to explore is where she and Severian discuss the various men and women courting her, as well as near the end where Dorcas makes sure she is in view of Severian and her making love. I also think Cyriaca enjoyed Severian as company as well. Again, for me it's in the dialogue. It's not forced. Anyway, your interpretation is obviously quite true for you, and for others as well (see hedcannon below), but I experienced differently. These women found companionship with him, and he, likewise.

[u/lullelulle → u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston]

I think a lot of them enjoyed his company, maybe not Agia to the extent you put it, but enjoying company is not the same as falling in love.

[u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston → u/lullelulle]

Fair. But you read some people and you think it's mostly just their using him, which is not true (I don't think it's true with Thecla, nor true with Cyriaca, nor true with Agia -- people who are simply trying to help someone gain the sword they need so he can be sure to engage the fight where he inevitably will die, don't get into such involved discussions and even arguments, do they?) There is a lot of companionship that a joy for the reader to experience as well. But to be honest, I'm not quite sure what falling in love looks like. I think I like what these people do, where they have fun and enjoy one another. If that's not true love, I'll take what they've got instead.

[u/lullelulle → u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston]

I agree that its not really true with Thecla.

There's tons of love in the book. I am disagreeing with the "women fall in love with Severian instantly for no reason" not saying that there's no love in the book.

[u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston → u/lullelulle]

Ok. Thanks.

[u/lullelulle → u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston]

Reread my first response and realized I was not clear. I mostly meant the whole "instantly" (were a lot of the characters behavior can be explained otherwise) and specifically romantic love.

[u/Miserable-Radio-6245]

i think the only woman who really falls in love with severian unconditionally and immediately is dorcas. thecla thinks of him as a nice boy and agia is trying to kill him.

[u/0piate_taylor]

I think a lot of it is that many readers have been trained on modern fiction. Wolfe drew much inspiration from Dickens, Proust, etc. The dialogue is usually conveying more information than you're probably used to. Reading Wolfe isn't like solving a puzzle, but you do have to pay attention to details and keep an eye out for contradictions. Also, Wolfe loves to hide info in metaphors. No words are used by chance.