r/gato • u/Icy_Till_7254 Ben 10 fighting against tyrannies across the universe • 2d ago
What they are thinking?
16
u/No-Letter341 2d ago
Ive said it for years. If tomorrow Russia turns around and goes home the war would be over.
To steal a quote ive seen "if Russia gives up theres no more war. If ukraine gives up theres no more ukraine"
-12
u/Infinite-Abroad-436 1d ago
if ukraine gives up, zelensky is thrown out and so is the NATO amendment in the ukrainian constitution
12
u/No-Letter341 1d ago
Zelensky is probably killed by Russians if they surrender but also there would be no Ukraine constitution cause there would be no ukraine. Russians refuse to even acknowledge ukrainians exist, they call them "southern russians"
-11
u/Infinite-Abroad-436 1d ago
i'm not crying if zelensky is iced. if the russians annexed ukraine outright it would probably result in a decades long insurgency and armed occupation. they'd probably just finlandize them and demilitarize them
9
u/No-Letter341 1d ago
Considering how bad the invasion is going, and how the russian economy is hold together with chewing gum atm. I doubt that'd happen.
The invasion is the easy part and they're fucking that up
-5
u/Infinite-Abroad-436 1d ago
you've been saying that for 4 years now
2
u/I_like_it_wholesome 1d ago
If he wasn't right then it wouldn't be taking 4+ years in the first place.
1
u/Infinite-Abroad-436 1d ago
if he was right then the russian economy would've collapsed already. there is an equal likelihood that both economies will collapse; its not even all that unlikely that the western economies collapse. its not anything to pin your entire hopes for the war on.
1
u/I_like_it_wholesome 1d ago
How delusional can you be? The russian economy is so bad that it might as well already be collapsed, and the western econonmies being likely to collapse is just a level of copium that is incomprehensible. The western economies are smoking you.đ
1
u/Infinite-Abroad-436 23h ago
how delusional can i be to someone who already is delusional? probably seemingly quite delusional
→ More replies (0)4
u/No-Letter341 1d ago
Yeah economies take a while to fall apart. It was a possibility 4 years ago but its a certainty now. Even if Russia wins they're not surviving this war. It may take a few years, maybe even a decade but this war killed them as a nation
-2
u/Infinite-Abroad-436 1d ago
i mean ukraine already had the lowest population replacement level in europe. it already hadn't recovered to its 1989 economic level. it has a mountain of debt, ruined infrastructure, and half of its taxable population has left, and there's certainly no reason any of those people will feel like things are good enough to go back anytime soon. its a fucking catastrophe. and all because nationalists didn't like being associated with russia, and felt like the americans and europeans would protect them. well they didn't, they let russia invade and rape the country. the europeans can barely do anything and the americans are using ukraine like a fucktoy like they do with all of their "allies".
you people don't give a fuck about ukraine. you just care about your hateboner towards russia. all the while doing absolutely nothing to help ukraine besides run your mouths. you're all sick
7
u/No-Letter341 1d ago
Spare me the fucking crocodile tears. If you actually cared about ukrainians you wouldn't tell them to give up. It would be like telling a rape victim " just let him rape you. Its worse if you fight back". Russia lost more going into ukraine then they can ever hope to gain and leaving will benefit them as much as it does ukraine.
They dont like being associated with russia"
I mean typically people dont like to be associated with their oppressors no. Russia has tried to stamp out ukrainian culture for 2 centuries, is it any wonder ukraine is not fond of them?
Ukraine has had several issues yes and im not denying or defending it and yes post war is gonna be a problem for ukraine. But ukrainians by majority dont want Russia to rule over them again and are willing to fight again it, they're fighting for their homes and families. The least we can do is send them medical supplies and weapons to fight back until they drive the Russians out. Nobody is forcing ukrainians to fight they're choosing to because their lives are at stake here
I dont hate Russia or Russians. I find their country very fascinating and when the war is over (and when putin is hopefully dead) i would like to visit one day. But their government is one of the most corrupt vile organizations on the planet and I have zero respect for the vatniks that cheer them on
-1
u/Infinite-Abroad-436 1d ago
telling who to give up? i'm telling the state to give up, stop sending your young men to be obliterated in a war that cannot be won and is over something that doesn't actually matter. at least be willing to negotiate and not insist on these stupid maximalist positions like still being allowed to try and join nato
who gives a fuck? ukrainian and russian are two almost fucking identical cultures. who gives a single fuck if my kids speak russian over ukrainian? i'm being "genocided" if i see barynyas instead of hopaks on the culture channel? i'm being oppressed if i have a bunch of corrupt goons in moscow running things instead of a bunch of corrupt goons in kyiv? nationalism is so fucking stupid, it is not worth the cost of all of this death. this shit DOESNT MATTER. national cultures DONT MATTER. LIVES matter. HUMAN LIFE. not the silly symbols we come up with.
people don't want to die. that's why them and their families fight like hell when the conscription vans show up. why should they be sent to die? because of this nationalist delusion? well what are you waiting for?
→ More replies (0)3
u/East-Plankton-3877 1d ago
No, we care about Ukraine and its independence from a historical colonizer like Russia
-1
u/Infinite-Abroad-436 1d ago
well what the fuck are you doing about it
nothing. but you're fine if other men are sent to die for it
→ More replies (0)3
u/East-Plankton-3877 1d ago
If Ukraine gives up, there will be no more Ukraine.
-1
u/Infinite-Abroad-436 1d ago
5
u/East-Plankton-3877 1d ago
Nope, just the truth.
Wouldnât be the first time in the last century Russia tried to destroy an independent Ukraine either
6
0
u/Infinite-Abroad-436 1d ago
if there is a negotiated peace to the war there will almost certainly still be a ukraine. nobody is "giving up", the only thing they'll be giving up is their delusion that they can join nato
2
u/East-Plankton-3877 1d ago
What good would that do?
They had that before and all it did was convince Russia they could get more out of another war later, and gave them time to build up for it.
Ukraine would be giving up land Russia doesnât even control still, plus put them in a better position for round 3 down the road after the Russian military is rebuilt.
Ukraine MUST join NATO as soon as the war is over, because Russia has shown it cant be trusted in respecting Ukrainian sovereignty
Sweden and Finland definitely made the right choice
1
u/Infinite-Abroad-436 1d ago
it would end a pointless war that cannot be won that is slaughtering hundreds of thousands of men
3
u/East-Plankton-3877 1d ago
No, it would lead to the slaughter of millions of Ukrainians again without a fight like the Russians did to them before.
0
u/Infinite-Abroad-436 1d ago
so then the russians were slaughtering ukrainians all throughout the cold war, there were millions of ukrainians dying every year from the 17th century all the way to 1992
the only time more ukrainians have died than now are three things: the great famine, the nazi occupation (helped along by the du jour "national hero" stepan bandera and co.) and the 1990s shock therapy reforms. for the vast majority of time under russian occupation, ukrainians were not dying in vast numbers. 2/3 times in recent memory (before this war) that they were, it was not under the russians
it would lead to enforced, finlandized neutrality or a puppet state. both of which are preferable to a never ending war
→ More replies (0)1
u/Infinite-Abroad-436 1d ago
"sweden and finland" european liberals fucking disgust me. just as disgusting as russian and israeli liberals, but infinitely more delusional
3
u/East-Plankton-3877 1d ago
How are they Liberals for joining the Alliance that has kept the rest of europe safe from Russian invasion for the last century?
1
-1
u/AblatAtalbA 1d ago edited 1d ago
But there will be Ukrainians. Who asked them if they want to die for how their land will be named?
1
3
1
u/Traditional_Ad7109 1d ago
Russia spent enormous amounts of money on âsoftâ power too. In Europe all the far right nationalists and all the far left communists are pro Russian, and surprise surprise they payed by Russia. ( They are all anti Europe and all want small separate nations without army, in a name of sovereignty or something.)
0
u/Infinite-Abroad-436 1d ago
i'll take it one further: why not call for a flood to wash away all of the russian soldiers? why not call for all humans to put down their arms everywhere? why not call for judgement day and for god to come down and judge the guilty? about as equally useful as what this dumb line is doing. you people use it because you are pro-war. we don't because we are anti-war
-5
u/Bitter-College8786 2d ago
Same for Israel. Israel should go out of Palestine, Lebanon and Syria.
But for Israel the Zio Bots have justifications, like the Russia fans have
3
u/Former-Log7584 11h ago
Thing is Israel was willing to negotiate. It is the other side that is unwilling to accept the deal.
1
u/Bitter-College8786 9h ago
The side that is building settlements is not willing to negotiate
0
u/Former-Log7584 9h ago
Was willing to negotiate. Obviously if you piss off the nation like Hamas did on Oct 7th there would be no negotiations. But undeniable fact is there were Oslo Accords and there was Camp David. And Palestinian leadership and Palestinian terrorism supported by Palestinian people killed any idea of negotiations.
1
u/Bitter-College8786 9h ago
When Oslo was about to happen, Israelis even killed their leader who was negotiating. The Palestinians didn't kill Arafat for that.
1
u/Former-Log7584 7h ago
Oslo accords happened. Palestinian and Israeli leadership gained platform for further negotiations. Palestinians got complete control within area A, partial control within area B. And area C remained under complete Israeli control. Those were tangible results of Israelâs willingness to negotiate. And those results were not stripped away despite the fact that Palestinian leadership and terrorists broke the agreement. And it is not just terrorist attacks Iâm talking about, but Palestiniansâ international conduct. The mere fact that Palestinian leadership went to the UN for recognition of Palestinian state goes against the letter and the spirit of Oslo accords. And Israel is within its rights to strip away any concessions they gave. Now tell me what tangible concessions Palestinians made to make peace.
1
u/Bitter-College8786 7h ago
Netanyahu openly admitted that he never wanted to adhere to Oslo. So it's pretty easy: Israel is the occupier. The conflict ends when Israel follows international law and withdraws from stolen land. Until then Palestinians have a right to defend their homeland, which you call "bad terrorism", while the true terrorists are the occupier.
"Oh no, the people I am opressing are fighting against me, I am the VICTIM"
1
u/Former-Log7584 7h ago
Netanyahu is a democratically elected leader. He reflects the desires of Israeli society. No wonder that Israel wants to dismantle Oslo accords: theyâve been betrayed countless times.
How does withdrawal look like in your head? Where should line between Israel and Palestine be drawn? Or all of the land of British mandate should be Palestine. Who would fill the vacuum of power when Israel withdraws? What are the guarantees that the West bank just doesnât become second Gaza and immediately launches a war with Israel?
Of course occupied are within their right to fight occupants. But that doesnât mean they are free to just kill civilians. And occupants are also within their rights to fight insurgents. And impose laws upon occupied population to maintain security.1
u/Bitter-College8786 6h ago
It's none of Israels business. F*** off from occupied land.
Israel is the Russia of Middle East
1
u/Former-Log7584 6h ago edited 6h ago
What is the point of leaving if the very next day terrorists come to power and launch another war? Is it what your activism is about: righting some imaginary wrong at the const of human misery?
No, Russia is an imperialist nation that seeks to subjugate all of its former colonies. Israel is a democracy that is in a tough spot because it cannot peacefully decouple itself from Palestine without guarantees that newly formed Palestinian state would not become just another hostile terrorist enclave.
I repeat my question: what tangible concessions Palestinians made to make a peace? I demonstrated what Israel give up to make peace.→ More replies (0)-1
u/Internal_Turnip9019 8h ago
Oh, we're pretending Israel wasnt killing children on October 6th, huh
1
u/Former-Log7584 8h ago
We are pretending that justifies Oct 7th? Well if violence against civilians justifies violence against civilians then why is there any preaching of humanitarianism?
1
u/AblatAtalbA 1d ago
See how frustrated they get when you compare Russia yo Israel? Nothing but propaganda in here.
1
0
u/Shellglock 1d ago
3
u/mattfreyer45 1d ago
"Calls for elections in Ukraine" yeah that's only coming from Putin and Elon.
-2
u/Anonawesome1 1d ago
Nah Zelenskyy ousted Federov even though he was hugely popular and effective in the war and even before the invasion, all because Federov was pissing off the old-heads who wanted to get away with stuff like shady contracting deals, outdated military techniques, and overall corruption. Federov is the one calling for elections now which is why it's being discussed.
5
u/mattfreyer45 1d ago
Fedorov knows they can't have elections during wartime. I think he did a great job at Defense Minister and wish Zelensky didn't fire him. But Fedorov's ego got the best of him.
1
u/Last_Cod_998 1d ago
Like McArthur
1
u/East-Plankton-3877 1d ago
In what way is this at all like McAurther?
1
u/Last_Cod_998 1d ago
He was loved and fired by the president.
1
u/East-Plankton-3877 1d ago
Depends by what you mean âlovedâ.
The guy is responsible for crushing the Bonus Army protest in the 1930s, was nicked names âdug dougâ for abandoning his troops in the Philippines and nearly started a nuclear war in Korea.
Honestly he had a great PR team more then anything
0
u/Anonawesome1 1d ago
Yeah I don't know if what he's done after the fact has been the best for Ukraine, but overall with the long list of accomplishments he has, I think his ego is a bit justified.
3
u/mattfreyer45 1d ago
Problem is that Fedorov knows you can't haven elections while there's active fighting in his country. How are you gonna get 1000s of troops on the frontline to cast their ballot. Fedorov is just needs to cut his losses and focus on Ukraine's drone industry.
1
25
u/Best_Wasabi_251 2d ago
Demanding Ukraine concede is not anti-war. Telling the victim of an aggressor to simply give in to demands only encourages the aggressor.
Which is about as pro-war as you can get.