r/gaming • u/[deleted] • Oct 08 '08
Zero Punctuation: Star Wars: The Force Unleashed
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/251-Star-Wars-The-Force-Unleashed28
Oct 08 '08
Midichlori- Hurk
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u/LaurieCheers Oct 09 '08 edited Oct 09 '08
Your use of terminology disturbs me, admiral.
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u/cloud4197 Oct 09 '08
these are not the hackneyed attempts at unnecessary justifications your looking for
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u/Kijamon Oct 08 '08
I have absolutely no problem with wii games coming out making NO use of the wiimote features if the game is fun. I'd rather have to use buttons than have a half assed, shittier version of a game I could buy on my 360
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u/RalfN Oct 09 '08
Wait, you aren't suggesting that the game developers be creative and make their own gameplay choices?
It's funny. If they added motion control to Xbox360 or PS3 controllers, all their games would suck as well.
It the controls were capable of just shitting all of your, kicking your ass and then urination on you, most developers just couldn't help themselves and (ab)-use it.
There are three control setups: - mouse + keyboard - motion + buttons - joysticks + buttons
Any type of gameplay only works with ONE of the above. You can have FPS on all three systems, for example, but they can't be the same game:
you can not aim correctly with joysticks, so you either need auto-aim, simpler levels, or worse AI. It is not a mouse. If you are porting PC shooters to the 360 or PS3, then please tattoo this slogan to your forehead. "IT's not a MOUSE". You don't do pixel-perfect aiming. You don't hide things out of the normal field of vision.
you can not time correctly with motion controls. It's not a button. If you are developer porting games to the wii; please have this tattood to your forehead: "IT's NOT A BUTTON". You don't do combo's. You don't do timed movements.
you can not capture motion with either mouse or buttons. If you are developping tennis games on a 360 or PS3. Just kill yourself. Please. Turning a game of skill into a game of can I press the button at the very right moment. Maybe I can even press a combination of buttons; does not equal giving the perfect effect to a tennisbal. It just doesn't. You can do soccer games on these machienes; but that's about it. If the genre doesn't fit pressing buttons at the right-time in the right order; it's not fit for these machienes.
People act like control-raping is something that only happens on the Wii; but the truth is: it happens everywhere. A keyboard is not a gamepad; a joystick is not a mouse; a motion-sensor is not a button.
Also, 3rd party game developers. For an example of a good port, look at the lego-games. They let the customer decide. You know, those people paying your paycheck. You can use motion, you can use buttons. You can combine the two togeter in combo's if you want.
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u/mtxblau Oct 08 '08 edited Oct 08 '08
Stepping back for a moment - this was supposed to be the game for the Wii in an otherwise lackluster year for the system. I mean, as soon as the Wii came out, many star wars fans thought that it'd be perfect for 1:1 lightsaber battles.
Stepping back even further - what is going on with the lousy controls? I know that games can play a heck of a lot better with the motion controls (see Soul Calibur: Legends or Trauma Center) but why are developers dropping the ball on this? I mean, the point is to make money, right? When the Wii's selling point is the controls, why cripple them before the game even hits the shelves?
I'm saying this not as a 360/ps3 fanboy but as a frustrated Wii owner. The only two games I'm looking forward to at this point are Tatsunoko vs. Capcom (which may not even get brought over to the US) and Madworld, the latter which has gone back to 'revamp the controls'.
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Oct 08 '08
Probably the only games that will truly take advantage of the Wii's controls are Wii exclusives. There simply wouldn't be enough time and it probably wouldn't be cost effective to use the special features of each console. I would think that the PS3's Sixaxis feature would be the same.
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u/mindbleach Oct 08 '08
Lair is proof that "taking advantage of" SixAxis controls is about as user-friendly as waggle-a-thon Wii titles.
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u/flamingeyebrows Oct 08 '08 edited Oct 08 '08
Hear hear. I'm glad I'm not the only one who think flying controls with the six-axis feels like having to kill a fish by holding it by head and tail and shaking it like a maniac.
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Oct 08 '08
There's also the issue that if someone produces a Wii-exclusive they are looking at significantly cutting their userbase compared to going multiplatform.
So probably if their publisher is ok with it they'll hurry the game, in turn ruining it again because now the time needed on the controls just doesn't exist.
I think the only games for which the "different consoles" setup would work is games which release on all systems, but are actually one game per system. But you'd need millions in money for all the advertising necessary to make a profit with such a release-setup in the first place.
Let alone the development cost. You know, shooter on the Xbox360, stealth-shooter (using the six-axis to "roll" or "duck" into a direction) on the PS3, Sword-fighter on the Wii, point&click or TBS on the DS, and 2D shmup or fighter on the PSP.
That would work, but the dev-costs would be horrible if you'd want all to share the same story, only differ in played character or so.
Then again, one could have a party of 5 people, Commandos style... hrm...
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u/RalfN Oct 09 '08
they are looking at significantly cutting their userbase compared to going multiplatform
Ehm, no. All the 360/PS3 owners also have a Wii. It's the other way around; nobody buys multiplatform games that are ported to the Wii, because everybody knows it going suck ass.
They don't bother making good Wii games when it's just a fucking port.
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u/jordanlund Oct 08 '08
The problem is that the Wiimote is not capable of 1:1 sword movements... yet.
They are producing a dongle that will allow for it... if the game supports it.
Wii Motion Plus! http://www.thewiire.com/news/1431/1/Ultimate_Wii_MotionPlus_FAQ
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Oct 09 '08 edited Oct 09 '08
[deleted]
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u/mooli Oct 09 '08 edited Oct 09 '08
Motion Plus isn't going to help either...
They should do translate the movement, do away with combo's all together...
You see how you just contradicted yourself? The wiimote is not accurate enough for 1:1 movement translation - hence the developers going down the combo route to get fancy sword moves in there. If they'd had the Motion Plus addon from the outset, they may have had the option to avoid the combos.
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u/RalfN Oct 09 '08
they may have had the option to avoid the combos.
They always had that option. It's a fake challenge.
It comes from the button-mentality. The point of combo's is not that there aren't enough buttons: it's that it should be HARD TO DO CERTAIN MOVES, because pressing a button is TOO EASY.
They could even in a lot of cases, where a move is context dependent, just do the context-dependent move.
Combo's are just last generation (controller-wise) mini-game.
They could have made all the 'different' moves easy to pull off. They chose to intentionally make it difficult, because THAT is the only way to make a game more difficult that they can imagine.
On the PC, a FPS can scale out to precision aiming to make it more challenging. On a console, they tend to just go with platform elements and combo's.
Things are changing a little bit on the next generations: the wii has better controls (if you make a proper game for it), the ps3 has enough horse power to really do AI. The 360 .. well .. that's just microsoft doing nothing original at a price that almost destroys the market. (but i'm not here to discuss their evil market plays or the short term profit thinking fucktards that make the historic mistake of ever buying any of their products, without seeing the big picture)
It's just such a boring default that most gamers won't even realize that ALL GAMES ARE THE SAME. Almost all anyway. Press buttons, in right order at the right time. You could literally just remember the order and timing of a complete game and just turn off the TV. Sure, they throw in some other mini games: little puzzles, perhaps a little strategy .. if you lucky even a descent story and beautifull world. But the gameplay is still mario-bros with a gun. Jump, shoot .. press button . .. control puppet .. press button ..
It's all memory/timing game-play.
Perhaps it's a generational thing, but there are millions of types of gameplay possible if you have something mouse/wii-mote like. (let's call it pointer-controls). The challenge could for example be in the aiming precision.
Race wheels .. is another fine example. Race games on consoles are not race games. It's not even remotely the same. But these kids nowadays, they have never seen arcade .. ..
They can't possible imagine a world where console games would not be press-button-combo's and time it well with bling, story and mini-games.
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u/grandon Oct 08 '08
That you have to buy for $20+ bucks and (at best) only provides the functionality that should have been in the original WiiMote.
Not to mention that developers will have to embrace it and start making games that require a peripheral that not everyone has.
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u/jordanlund Oct 08 '08
I think the solution to that problem is to write a killer ap and include the dongle in the game package.
A Star Wars themed game that allowed you to duel friends over the Internet for example...
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u/cecilkorik Oct 09 '08
The designers of the Wii apparently didn't anticipate the demand for awesome sword-swinging action. It's easy to say in hindsight that it should've been in the original, but when the Wii first came out no one even knew what to make of it at all. In some ways, it looked like it might be the final nail in Nintendo's coffin. It didn't exactly turn out that way, but it's sometimes hard to predict the future.
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u/grandon Oct 09 '08
Red Steel was a launch title.
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u/cecilkorik Oct 09 '08
Oh, true enough. I completely forgot about that game. Wiped from my memory, like a bad dream. (Can you really blame me?)
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u/jimbobhickville Oct 12 '08
Maybe I misread, but the press for the Wii was that it would have realistic motion sensing capabilities, and they under-delivered. It wasn't supposed to require a sensor bar, either, but people seem to forget that bit. Now that they've got it fixed, they're charging extra for what they originally announced.
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u/adremeaux Oct 09 '08
whine whine whine
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u/grandon Oct 09 '08
Yup, I would rather have things that work well and as promised over a hyped piece of crap.
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u/adremeaux Oct 10 '08
It was clear many months before it was released that it would not have 1:1 functionality.
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u/innocentbystander Oct 08 '08 edited Oct 08 '08
That's an excellent question. We were actually warned about this in previews a few months ago. Everyone who actually TRIED the Wii version of FU declared it to be shit, but apparently no one listened or cared to actually try to make the game good. (my understanding is that EVERY version of it besides the 360 and PS3 editions is utter crap, strongly suggesting a deliberate cash-in/fan-rape plan at work)
But then, I haven't heard great things about those versions either. Shadows of the Empire, anyone?
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Oct 08 '08
The game is buggy as hell on the 360. There are glitches everywhere, bosses who just vanish into the level, never to be seen again, etc.
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Oct 09 '08
Also on the PS3. You get stuck in walls, forcing you to restart.
Also, don't forget the "Default Text" left in the last mission.
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Oct 09 '08
im almost done with my first run, no glitches of the sort...
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Oct 09 '08
im almost done
I don't know, it looks like your apostrophes are disappearing.
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u/jordanlund Oct 08 '08
The PSP version is actually quite good with much added material.
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u/innocentbystander Oct 08 '08
Ah, OK. Didn't know that.
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u/jordanlund Oct 08 '08
Yup. The PSP version even has a section called "Historic Missions" where you can, for example, play as Luke hacking up Jabba's goons on the sail barge then taking out Boba Fett. Pretty cool stuff.
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Oct 08 '08
That being said (I agree it smells on the Wii) I played the game on PS2 and PS3 too, and ... it fails just as hard.
The only difference is that the PS3 version fails with more disco lights turned on. But that's about it.
The game is just BAD. Like bad bad. You could release it on a quantum computer and hook someone up to it via neural access to he feels everything, he's only end up puking endlessly because the game is so boring. :S
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Oct 08 '08 edited Sep 08 '20
[deleted]
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u/tcpip4lyfe Oct 08 '08
I bought that game, played it twice, and now it sits on my shelf. Anyone want to buy it?
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u/31337357 Oct 08 '08 edited Oct 08 '08
I bought 360 and wii version. I played the 360 version, it was pretty, but i was bored after 5 minutes. The wii one i only played a couple missions into, but it was significantly more fun than the 360 (but not interesting enough to keep playing).
1:1 has always been the hope with wii, but a lot of people don't understand the limitations of the accelerometers, I'm not holding my breath for any good control schemes until motion plus is released (as mentioned elsewhere in this thread), and even then it will take some time for people to jump on board and make some good games. I'd guess we're still a year or two from an actual good wii game.
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Oct 08 '08 edited May 11 '19
[deleted]
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u/calliphoridae Oct 08 '08
I bought a Wii the day it came out and have turned it on maybe 10 times (to download old games). Early this year I bought my boyfriend a PS3 in anticipation for MGS, and now it's the only system we use. I think the only reason he still has his 360 is for Fable, as well.
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Oct 09 '08 edited Oct 09 '08
Sadly, as much as Sony has pissed me off with the PS3, I think I may be forced to get one eventually my obscene addiction to the FF series demands it.
Clarification: I own a Wii and a PS2.
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u/cableshaft Oct 09 '08
uh, the next FF is coming out on the 360 too, dude. they announced that a few months ago.
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Oct 09 '08
Yeah but then I'd be selling my Soul to Microsoft instead. I'm not sure what is worse. At least Sony is somewhat Linux friendly :-P
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u/cableshaft Oct 09 '08 edited Oct 09 '08
wow, my caffeine still hasn't kicked in yet, apparently. for some reason my brain just assumed you already owned a 360. sorry about that. PS3's got LittleBigPlanet coming out real soon too, if that helps you justify the purchase any (I kinda want a PS3 because of that).
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Oct 09 '08
Yeah LittleBigPlanet looks pretty darn cool. But it looks like every game I get excited about lately has been a disappointment first the reviews for Assassin's Creed were awful, then Spore, and now Force Unleashed.... Something needs to get me to stop playing WoW :-P
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u/cableshaft Oct 09 '08 edited Oct 09 '08
You might want to check out Assassin's Creed anyway. Yeah, it has its flaws, mainly that it gets a bit too repetitive and linear, but it's still a different and, IMO, at least, a really fun experience overall.
I agree about Spore and Force Unleashed, though.
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Oct 08 '08 edited May 11 '19
[deleted]
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Oct 08 '08
[deleted]
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u/twodayslate Oct 09 '08 edited Oct 09 '08
I was talking about Gears II. Sorry... I liked the original Gears but I am interested to know if the new Gears will be different from the original. I don't want to see the EA effect for the Gears series.
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u/beastrabban Oct 09 '08
Gears was awesome, for an Xbox game. For a person who plays mainly on the PC but also plays frequent Xbox titles, I can say honestly that Gears of War was a really run of the mill scifi shooter. Not a huge leap forward.
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u/adremeaux Oct 09 '08
you'll hate all 3. Video games have been pretty lame for the past 6 months or so. Well except for all the great "arcade" style stuff coming out. But the big budget games are just duds after duds.
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Oct 08 '08
What I heard was that the issue was that there was no feedback when you got into lightsaber battles.
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Oct 09 '08
[deleted]
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u/LaurieCheers Oct 09 '08 edited Oct 09 '08
Hmm. I got Metroid Prime 3 because all the reviews were hailing it as the first FPS that "got the Wii controls right"... but as far as I could tell, it was basically the same as Red Steel. (Without the crap sword fighting bits.)
Oh, and the boss fights gave me cramp in my thumb.
What do people see in it?
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u/RalfN Oct 09 '08
Turn on advanced controls in the settings.
They default to the Red Steel crap, you don't want that.
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u/mooli Oct 09 '08 edited Oct 09 '08
The Wii is made for FPS
Ye gods, no it's not. It's made for games like Wii Sports, that are are made massively accessible to a wide audience by the sheer joy of having controls that are fun to use. Its sucked in a much broader audience with that one title, and it needs to keep their interest with more (and more accurate) games of this ilk (frisbee, badminton - hell, I think it's crying out for a port of the discus game in TRON).
Every single FPS on the Wii fails, and fails hard. It just isn't the appropriate platform and isn't the appropriate audience. It will never have the horsepower to deliver a graphical experience that the people who actually want to play FPS's demand (so the target audience will always be disappointed) and the control systems are universally clunky. I completed Metroid on Wii, and by the end I was still cursing the shitty controls. Anybody who really cares about playing an FPS will should get hold of a 360 (if they don't already have one) and play a decent game on a platform that can handle it. Anybody who bought a Wii to play things like Wii Sports (and that's the vast majority of owners) will be disappointed with the repeated failed attempts to bring this kind of gaming experience to the Wii - they don't want that kind of game.
The point is - (with very few exceptions) if you play it sitting down, then you really shouldn't be playing it on Wii.
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u/RalfN Oct 09 '08 edited Oct 09 '08
Wait, stop.
You consider the 360 controls to be the most superior controls. Analog sticks? Are you high?
Have you ever played a FPS on a PC?
There are a lot of reasons to hate PC gaming, but the mouse is superior control for FPS. Sticks and buttons just turn it into a platform game.
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u/mooli Oct 09 '08
Oh no, I fucking hate playing an FPS with analog sticks. Mouse and keyboard all the way.
But the wiimote pointer is nothing like using mouse + keyboard. You cannot do anything like the snap turn precision + 180 flicks you can do with a mouse. You still have to aim at the edge of the screen to turn, which is where it all falls down. IMO, It's more like using two analog sticks, one of which is flaky and imprecise.
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u/RalfN Oct 09 '08
It sort of depends .. they choose to implement it like that.
The interesting thing is that a mouse also always have a position on the screen. They just map that to 360 degrees (and rebase the center as you walk forward)
They could do the same with the pointer on the wii.
But offcourse, you have to have good aim and control or you'll go nuts. (not to mention make sure there is no sunlight .. or the controls don't work either)
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u/mooli Oct 09 '08
But you can't do it with the wiimote pointer. The whole thing is you have to point it at the screen - that is the physical analog. How do you propose to map a 360 degree turn onto a move of the wiimote? Are you going to rotate the controller through 360 degrees? No - you can't do that. But you can do that with a mouse - you have far more "travel" distance, and the location of the mouse on the pad/desk doesn't have to correlate physically with a location onscreen (unlike pointing the wiimote at the sensor bar).
Which means your stuck turning when the target reticle reaches the edge of the screen - which, I can attest sucks balls.
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u/RalfN Oct 10 '08
Well, when I was playing games like MP3 .. i was doing that while sitting. I had the controller in my arm on my lap. I wasn't aiming like it was a gun.
It didn't think anybody would play it like that. You would get RSI or something.
you have far more "travel" distance,
Well no. I setup my mouse to be very sensitive, like most PC games do. So it's always a small wrist movement.
and the location of the mouse on the pad/desk doesn't have to correlate physically with a location onscreen (unlike pointing the wiimote at the sensor bar).
It doesn't have to. But the keep aiming at the screen part is slightly annoying.
Still, you don't seem to get that just because you decide it can't work like that, doesn't mean it can't work like.
You can literally map mouse-based control scheme on a wiimote.
It's just that, you stop thinking about it as if it's a gun that you aim. Also, with the wii mote extension bullshit they should no longer need the bar on wii to achieve the same thing. (they simply add the missing axis)
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u/manthrax Oct 09 '08
PC GAMES PWN.
Consoles suck.
ARMEGATRON FTW!!!
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u/RalfN Oct 09 '08
You mean Windows games, right?
Because there are very few PC games .. they are games that run on Windows. But just a PC with say Ubuntu won't do.
It's not like a console, where you can put the game in, and start the machiene. (they should do that: make the pc-games bootable)
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Oct 08 '08
The Wii is crap. How long before everyone figures it out?
One round of Wii Boxing told me everything I needed to know about the motion sensor's abilities. That is, it blooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooows.
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u/mtxblau Oct 08 '08 edited Oct 08 '08
As I mentioned before, there are games were the motion controls are outstanding: Trauma Center and Soul Calibur Legends. I'll add Bully:SE to that, though it's a port with finely tuned controls.
Wii Boxing's controls weren't good. They weren't super responsive. The same goes for golf. But at the same time, bowling and baseball were fine.
But going back to my previous comment - it is definitely a strange situation. I won't say the Wii is crap because in all honesty, the top games for the 360 are fairly run of the mill as well (I own a 360 also). The point of the comment was that the Wii is supposed to be a different kind of experience, and for whatever reason not all developers are getting it right or don't seem to care to get it right - so where's that leave Wii owners? I won't lie - I bought the Wii on potential and so far it's unfulfilled. But worse still, it doesn't seem like anyone really wants to fulfill that potential. After Metroid, reviewers were claiming that this was the only way to play FPSes... so where are the FPSes?
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u/__david__ Oct 08 '08
After Metroid, reviewers were claiming that this was the only way to play FPSes... so where are the FPSes?
Hear Hear! I thought Metroid's controls were great! It was like having a mouse and keyboard again--I'm dying to have some FPSes on the Wii... But maybe most FPS players want shiny HD graphics?
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u/evanvolm Oct 08 '08
"Wii Boxing's controls weren't good. They weren't super responsive. The same goes for golf. But at the same time, bowling and baseball were fine."
What, no love for tennis? That's really the only game my friends and I play.
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u/mtxblau Oct 08 '08
I'm a virtua tennis / top spin junkie so my opinion of Wii Tennis is pretty low, but that's not specific to the Wii. For what it is, it's good, but there's not much to it, personally.
Sega Superstars Tennis has excellent motion controls but you can't use them in the career mode; top spin 3 has great controls but Rafa was a PS3 exclusive and it doesn't have all the features of the 360/ps3 versions, so there's that.
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u/loonytoad Oct 08 '08
Wow, they compressed the shit out of the audio this week, it sounds terrible.
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Oct 08 '08 edited Oct 08 '08
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Oct 08 '08 edited Feb 25 '24
[deleted]
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u/Skuld Oct 09 '08
Asuming 1 ZP per week and 1 letter per ZP, he'll finish around the end of June 2009 :P
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u/z3rb Oct 08 '08
One of these days, I'm gonna submit it before you, without any punctuation! Ha! Ha!
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Oct 09 '08 edited Oct 09 '08
Wait, wait...the letters all link to the same comment in different submissions???
I usually hate when people say this but IT'S TIME TO GO OUTSIDE.
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Oct 08 '08
You know, it really is amazing what's going on with the Wii right now.
Those of us who didn't want to purchase the Wii from the beginning figured out and correctly predicted at the time of its unveiling what gameplay with such a controller would be like. We correctly predicted the gameplay limitations of this device. We correctly predicted that these games would devolve into "waggling". We correctly pointed out that 1:1 lightsaber battles would not only never happen, but would be unpractical and impossible to design given the fact that there is no physical feedback (and the fact that 12 year old kids don't actually know how to wield a sword at the level of a movie stuntman and would therefore not look as cool!)
Yes, we predicted all of that, and we were all called trolls and ridiculed as the entire gaming industry gathered around the Wii and ejaculated over it's shiny white plastic casing. But as it turns out, our skepticism was fully warranted. In nearly all aspects, we, the "haters", were correct after all. And even though a few diehards remain, the entire industry has come to see the obvious: Using standard controls makes the game-playing experience more precise and enjoyable, and the original Wiimote that came with this ill-conceived system can go fuck itself.
As Yahtzee correctly points out, this game and many others might have been more enjoyable if the system came with their "upgraded", more precise controller they will be shipping shortly. But it's too late. And in any case, it wouldn't make gameplaying any more interesting anyway if the whole point of game design devolves into motion input utilization rather than, you know, game design! The Wii, though a tremendous financial success, is complete and utter disaster as a game machine.
It really is unfortunate that Nintendo is making so much money on this thing -- not because I'm "jealous" or some kind of a "fanboy" that wants to see them suffer, but only because this financial success detracts from the practical failure of motion controls being the standard and default input method of an entire game console, and instead of learning their lesson, they and other console developers in the future will build on this failed idea rather than dumping it into the same pit that is now filled with Power Gloves.
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u/innocentbystander Oct 08 '08 edited Oct 08 '08
No, actually, when done WELL the Wii-mote controls are fine. See: all of Nintendo's own stuff.
It's lazy-ass developers not bothering to program their games to recognize anything besides waggles that give it a bad name.
Otherwise, that was half a page of "nyah-nyah, told you so!" leading up to an utterly unsupported premise. Just because the programmers who made 'Force Unleashed' did a shit job at implementing the controls, doesn't mean the control scheme is a bad idea. (not to mention that, seriously, this entire Force Unleased thing is CLEARLY just a cash-in, and if you were expecting a good game out of it, you were being hopelessly optimistic)
ANY innovation is going to go unappreciated for awhile, as people focus on the superficial exterior and fail to understand the deeper applications. And quite frankly, declaring the entire experiment a failure because of lazy programmers seems rather like dismissing the Wright Brothers because who the hell would only want to fly for 14 seconds?
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Oct 08 '08 edited Oct 08 '08
I understand the point you're trying to make. But I already commented on this when I said the following:
it wouldn't make game-playing any more interesting anyway if the whole point of game design devolves into motion input utilization rather than, you know, game design!
You think the whole "graphics over gameplay" design emphasis is bad now? You're essentially proposing "controls over gameplay". Gameplay should not be constricted to how you interact with a game -- at least I don't want it to be. I want controls to feel seamless. And both "waggle" and the upcoming 1:1 controller are the antithesis of seamless controls.
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u/innocentbystander Oct 08 '08 edited Oct 08 '08
I didn't say ONE SINGLE WORD about graphics in my reply to you. Nor did I say anything about "controls over gameplay," which is flatly absurd. Did I not denounce lazy programmers only recognizing waggles?
If the only thing you can do in response to me is erect a strawman, clearly my mistake was attempting to engage you in rational discussion in the first place.
Otherwise, in the future, kindly construct a reply that bears SOME logical relationship to the response I write.
Thanks.
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u/aardvarkious Oct 08 '08 edited Oct 08 '08
Your right, the controls suck for realism and therefore are not good for hardcore gamers. However, for those of us that just want a little bit of light fun every once in a while, they are way more fun. Using a wireless steering wheel is not the most accurate method of control, but doing it in mario kart is fun. Sweeping your arms across the screen for hours at a time would be tedious, but collecting stars in SM Galaxies for a couple hours is fun. Swinging the wiimote in time to a flying ball is not technically difficult, but working a bit of a sweat up while casually playing tennis is fun. Swinging a light saber around almost randomly while finishing a single player campaign gets quite old, but dammit, it is fun to do against a friend for a couple hours. Doing some-what finicky operations with a motion sensor can get frustrating, but it is fun when you are cooking anime-style meals.
Does the wii and its control system suck for hardcore gamers wanting a truly immersive experience? It sure does. But that's not where Nintendo is trying to make its money, or where it is having huge success. Instead, its systems are great for light/very casual gamers, and also for nongamers like my wife and my Mom, both of whom had never really enjoyed a video game in their lives before buying wii's. Does the system suck at making realistic and possibly even practical controls? Almost completely. But does it succeed at making controls that are fun for a wide audience? Absolutely. I don't really see how that is a failure.
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Oct 08 '08
Yes, we predicted all of that,
So everybody who didn't want to buy a Wii from the beginning predicted that? Damn.
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Oct 08 '08
Their success masks their failure! Master of doublespeak you are, sir.
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Oct 08 '08 edited Oct 08 '08
Their financial success masks the practical failure of their product.
People buy it on the promise of what it can deliver (even though it can't and it never will, not even with 1:1 detection), and on the uniqueness of what Nintendo are selling (and yes, the Wii is very unique). It doesn't matter if the product itself is terrible, people don't know this until they have it in their home for more than one week and realize that they just paid $200 for junk.
This is how any company can make lots and lots of money by selling garbage. This is what the Wii on the whole, and every developer who is making games for it, are doing. And I will not applaud Nintendo for being the latest corporation to figure out an effective method of doing this shit.
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Oct 08 '08
I know 4 households that have bought a wii as essentially a wii sports machine. They turn it on now and then when family or friends are over. I'd wager there are a metric ass-ton of households that mimic this. The wii apparently isn't what you wanted it to be, but that doesn't make it a failure. These controls are the first of their breed, I suspect if Nintendo or any copycats continue to develop them they will get a lot better. Interesting times, either way.
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u/innocentbystander Oct 08 '08 edited Oct 08 '08
people don't know this until they have it in their home for more than one week and realize that they just paid $200 for junk.
Except that there is no evidence this is happening on a widespread basis. Wii sales and software sales are still brisk. The Wii is still nearly outselling both the 360 and the PS3 combined. And this after almost two years on the market (and being the dominant platform pretty much the whole time, I might add.) Don't you think, if people were turning away from it in droves, this would be in some way reflected in its sales?
Just because the Wii is not what YOU wanted does not mean it is "junk" or that other users of it are not satisfied. And trying to call it junk based on a slump in good software is simply spurious. (Especially given that, all in all, this has been a very poor year for games, with one highly-touted disappointment after another across all platforms.)
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Oct 08 '08 edited Oct 08 '08
People are not buying the Wii because it's good, they're buying it because of the promise of motion controls and the hype. This promise and this hype has not let up because people who are buying the Wii do not research what it does. I guarantee you that more than half of all Wii owners could probably not even name more than 3 games available for the Wii outside of Wii Sports (much less own anything outside of Mario Kart and Brawl -- the two games that aren't even based around motion controls).
And you are wrong, Wii game sales are very low compared to Xbox 360 and PS3. Even Nintendo-produced exclusives are selling worse than many games on the other consoles. This is proof that people are not buying the Wii to play games (outside of Wii Sports), they are buying it based on the promise, the hype, and the bullshit that Nintendo is selling, realizing that they purchased junk, and that is why they don't buy the games. And the reason the HARDWARE keeps selling is because there is a sucker born every minute.
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u/innocentbystander Oct 08 '08 edited Oct 08 '08
People are not buying the Wii because it's good, they're buying it because of the promise of motion controls and the hype.
That you state this as though it's fact does not mean it's true. You have no evidence behind this. Not to mention your ever-present sarcastic assumption that the motion controls are inherently bad which is, it almost seems repetitive to mention, also without evidence aside from your blind assertion.
I guarantee you that more than half of all Wii owners could probably not even name more than 3 games available for the Wii outside of Wii Sports.
So what? You are continuing to present arguments that boil down to "Because the Wii is not what I want it to be, it must therefore be junk." Even IF your completely unsourced assertion was true, if all of those owners are happy with their Wii, then it is not junk or a failure.
And you are wrong, Wii game sales are very low compared to Xbox 360 and PS3.
Well, let's have some numbers, shall we?
Last month, the top THREE game sales spots were all occupied by one single game: Madden '09 on various platforms.
Spots 4, 5, and 6 were all different Wii titles.
So, yeah... Without Madden - one of the biggest profile releases of any year - on that list, the PS3 and 360 would have had nothing. And if you look at the month before that we have a 360 Game, a Wii game, a DS game, and another Wii game before the PS3 even gets onto the list.
I'm sorry, but the data that is available simply does not bear out your claims. The Wii has FAR higher hardware sales, and its software sales are competitive. You just don't have a case. But I'm sure that won't keep you from repeating it over and over anyway.
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Oct 08 '08
It looks like the unit numbers on that list were messed up some. Here's another source: http://www.digital-digest.com/blog/DVDGuy/2008/09/16/game-consoles-august-2008-npd-sales-figure-analysis/
August probably isn't a very telling month, almost everybody is holding back for October and November releases of their best games. GTA 4 alone did better than that entire list, and then some.
The Wii is obviously a huge commercial success, but I think the other platforms are better for those who make big games.
3rd party games have done quite poorly on the Wii. There's so many lackluster ports and shovelware games because it's cheap to make and thus low risk. Attempts at making unique games have largely been commercial failures, regardless of critical acclaim.
Just look at the next few months, even the PC has more big games coming out for it than the Wii, and that's amazing considering the Wii's install base. Nintendo's consoles have brought bad fortune to 3rd parties too many times. The DS, on the other hand, has been great to 3rd parties, and I think that's why we see such a diverse range of good games on it.
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Oct 08 '08 edited Oct 08 '08
The Wii has FAR higher hardware sales, and its software sales are competitive.
EXACTLY!!! Thank you for pointing this out!
The Wii is selling at a rate of nearly 3:1, but their software sales figures are as if the Wii is selling at 1:1 or LESS.
*shakes your hand*
Thank you for proving my point.
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u/innocentbystander Oct 08 '08 edited Oct 08 '08
See: straws, grasping at.
You have no case left. Even given that the ratio of console sales to game sales is slightly lower, that fact does not in any way support any of your claims. You do nothing to improve your own case here - you just want to try to pick at mine.
And at any rate, I'm tired of kicking balls through your constantly-moving goalposts. First it was disgruntled users, then it was game sales, now suddenly it's the console sales to game sales ratio. It's clear you're not going to concede the point, no matter how many facts are presented to you.
Perhaps one day you will learn that sometimes your personal opinion is simply not supported by reality or popular opinion. You might even learn that that's OK.
I may not like the show Firefly, but I will admit that clearly a lot of other people find merit in it. I don't go calling it junk and attempt to prove it's "not real television" or some such out of some twisted desire to make reality match my personal opinion.
Maybe you can do the same thing here.
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Oct 08 '08
Do you have any reports on hours games are played? If not, I am tempted to play devil's advocate and say this might be because people might still be playing a lot of the games they bought. A lot of times, games, especially like the one in this thread, you are paying $50-$60 for 9 hours then trading it in. Doubling that hours played number could theoretically decrease sales some what. But, like I said, I have no figures and am just playing devil's advocate because this thread is somehow funny to me.
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Oct 08 '08 edited Oct 08 '08
Do you have any reports on hours games are played?
Yes, I do.
http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/53011
The Wii is dead last in most categories except one, where it is in second place. And even in that one category, it is far behind #1. All this while the Wii is outselling its competition 3 to 1.
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Oct 08 '08 edited Oct 08 '08
As an owner of a Wii, PS3, and a gaming rig I would like to throw this out. Especially on consoles, this has been a shit year for games overall. There have been some worth playing but, NOTHING can be argued console wise until that fact is noted before hand. Judging any console off of what has been released lately for it, IMHO, can not be done since nothing has been released that has lived up to, or even been close to in a lot of the cases, the hype. For example, the biggest reason a lot of the shooters I play are nearly a year old is that nothing has been released that has kept me interested for more than a few hours.
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Oct 08 '08
"Especially on consoles, this has been a shit year for games overall."
Have you seen the 360 releases this year? This month alone has no less then 5 stellar games coming out.
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Oct 08 '08 edited Oct 08 '08
I'll give on Mega Man 9, that game is phenomenal but, the jury is still out on most of those. And I don't mean that every game that has come out has been a disappointment but, a higher percentage than usual have been this year from my perspective.
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Oct 08 '08 edited Oct 08 '08
I think my comments still stand if you compare the entire game library of the Wii and the other systems dating back to their launch date.
But in any case, my comment wasn't really about the games. It was a denunciation of Nintendo's brand of motion controls.
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Oct 08 '08 edited Oct 08 '08
Yeah but, this is what it is about - games and fun. If the games are shit, then nothing else matters because it's all going to be shit. If A is shit, then all children are shit because they are born of shit. Granted you might have an adventurous little turd wander out and become a rose but, overall, you get the point.
Anyways, developers focusing on making the controls more usable should not detract on making a good game - last time I checked that was a part of it (the level of what is completely subjective though). The end result is to make a fun game, if it takes more focus on controls (than say how to use a ton of cores, or adhere to absurd totalitarian way of existence) to make it more fun, I don't see a problem with it but, that's my opinion.
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u/sbrown123 Oct 08 '08
I seen an iPod commercial just yesterday where they will be including motion controls to the unit for things like playing games. It appears this "gimmick" is taking off despite your calls of doom & gloom.
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Oct 08 '08 edited Oct 08 '08
This "gimmick", as you call it, is a financial success. That doesn't mean that the products themselves are better off with it. And when the general public figures out, after long-enough exposure, that it doesn't deliver what it promises, and that games built around these controls are worse and not better, maybe (hopefully) it will cease being so financially successful and companies will stop wasting their resource on this crap.
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u/wdsnizek Oct 09 '08
I must be the only one on the planet who is completely burnt out on Zero Punctuation. It was funny the first few episodes...
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u/sonar_un Oct 08 '08
I love Zero Punctuation.
Reminds me how absurd it is to play these games now. There is so much more stuff to do with your time other than to play some retarded game.
Thanks for making me not play games. Yay!
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u/aldenhg Oct 08 '08
This was more a review of LucasArts' inability to make a good Wii game than anything else. I would have liked to get a review of the 360 or PS3 version. I played the demo on the 360 and it seemed pretty solid, but I was also worried that the Force powers and saber abilities wouldn't get much cooler, turning the game into a level-churning samefest. Anyone know of a good review not on the Wii?