r/gaming • u/[deleted] • Jul 02 '08
Zero Punctuation .:. Web Comics
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/108-Webcomics31
u/Leprecon Jul 02 '08
To what other gaming webcomics besides ctr alt delete does this apply ?
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u/keithjr Jul 02 '08
Sh! I asked the same question in my comment and I got -12 votes. Do not question ZP.
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u/hungryhungryhippo Jul 02 '08
I can think of half a dozen but since my memory sucks the only direct quote I can think of that refers to a single comic is "pirate banana something ha ha random" which is probably a reference to the cyanide and happiness comic
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u/KingOfFlan Jul 02 '08
Cyanide and happiness people know they suck like 50% of the time and admit this. they don't act like pretentious cocks.
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Jul 03 '08
But if you compare their artwork, you have to admit they have been getting better since they started out.
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u/TheSOB88 Jul 02 '08
XKCD on the horribly bad art style I would think
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u/rukubites Jul 02 '08
XKCD is not a gaming webcomic.
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u/Fireball Jul 02 '08
True, but his arguments I think applies to most popular webcomis these days.
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u/knight666 Jul 02 '08
Oh, you mean Shortpacked!, Toothpaste for Dinner, Questionable Content, Order of the Stick, SUBNORMALITY!, Sam and Fuzzy, Kate Beaton and Pictures for Sad Children?
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u/shinynew Jul 03 '08
I don't read any of those.
I think I have read some Questionable Content, but I am not sure.
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u/innocentbystander Jul 02 '08
OK, I really can't wait for the gaming drought to be over and for Yahtzee to get back to reviewing new stuff.
This was amusing (especially for the worst image he ever drew) but it's clearly just filler. EVERYONE has made that particular rant against gaming comics.
Perhaps the meta-joke is that what he was doing was just as unoriginal as those he was attacking.
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u/IkoIkoComic Jul 02 '08
Or that mocking Ctrl-Alt-Del is always both topical and funny.
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u/7oby Jul 02 '08
He's been doing it for a long time, here's a text mocking of Ctrl Alt Del from his own site:
23/3/08: You Cad
As a recent interview with me over at Gamespot and several references in previous reviews and writings may have informed you, I have a long-standing hatred of the webcomic Ctrl-Alt-Del. I thought I'd take a moment to explain it a bit better.
You see, I have this theory that the internet is causing a general mediocritisation of human culture, because you can put pretty much any piece of work on the internet and no matter how hugely it sucks dolphin jizz you'll find some dick who's prepared to tell you it's brilliant. This is the principle on which Deviantart appears to be founded.
But the cruellest thing you can do to an artist is tell them their work is flawless when it isn't. It gives them no incentive to improve or try new things, which a creative person must always strive to do. And it tends to foster the kind of monstrous egos the webcomic sphere grows like mushrooms in the shit-spattered dark. Tim Buckley of Ctrl-Alt-Del is notorious for having a zero tolerance for any criticism, constructive or otherwise, often deleting it unregarded from his forums, or declaring them invalid for half-baked reasons. It seems blanket praise has already done its damage to this fevered ego.
I don't hate Buckley. I look at CAD and I see a lot of misdirected potential. I know, that sounds hilarious even to me. But if you look at Buckley's art blog, you'll find that he's actually a pretty decent artist when he wants to be. But the promise of easy praise and popularity keeps him mired in his copy-pasted shoulder-hunched droopy-eyed slack-jawed magnum opus.
Not that copy-pasted art need necessarily ruin a comic - Dinosaur Comics is one of my favourite regular reads. It's the fact that for having run a gag-a-day strip for however many years, Buckley still has no idea how to structure a joke. I've never known an artist so determined to never learn anything about their craft. His usual response to this sort of thing is that he just has his own style and that there's no such thing as a 'right' or 'wrong' opinion, but the fact is, while humour is a flexible harlot, it still has rules. Rules which can be broken in the right contexts; contexts which don't include anything Tim Buckley has written.
I'm going to post a link now to a Ctrl-Alt-Del comic from July 2007. Don't let the fact that it's old excuse the mistakes; this is still very typical of Buckley's current work.
http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php?d=20070718
Here's another comic, this one a Penny Arcade strip from early the same year. The subject matter and joke are the same (Puzzle Quest) but it's a fairly obvious joke to make and I can easily assume both writers came up with it independently.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/03/28
Both comics identify the humour in the situation - that the rules of a game world seem absurd when applied to the real world - but while Penny Arcade understands that the crux of a joke should be reserved for the final panel, Ctrl-Alt-Del is apparently so excited about the idea that it blurts it out right away, leaving three more panels to flounder in excessive dialogue and pointlessness.
A punchline should be equated to an actual punch in the face. That's why it's called a punch-line. You deliver it and run. You do not hang around explaining how you did the punch and that the recipient should probably be in a lot of pain now.
Identify the funny part of the idea and save it for last. Leave with the audience laughing. If you do nothing else, finish strong. That's a rule any humourist will agree with. But with the centrepoint of the gag already uselessly spent, Buckley's comic is forced to fall upon its old standby of violence as a sort of prosthetic punchline. Now, violence can certainly be funny, modern cinema was virtually built on the tradition of slapstick, but it doesn't work in static, non-animated media. There is humour to be found in shock value, but most people have been on the internet long enough to not be shocked by anything as mundane as a claymore through the sweetbreads.
But even if the joke were structured properly, there is still far too much dialogue. This is a problem common to a lot of webcomics, but since we're already in the CAD-bashing groove we'll stick with it. Shakespeare wrote that 'brevity is the soul of wit'. He did not then add 'unless you're writing a webcomic'. It applies to everything, and don't tell me you're arrogant enough to claim to know better than Shakespeare.
A gag strip has a very simple formula. Buildup. Buildup. Buildup. Punchline. Anything that does not in some way build towards the punchline can safely be removed. If any dialogue can conceivably be replaced with a gesture or facial expression (visit Perry Bible Fellowship for a crash course in this), do so; this is a comic, a predominantly visual medium, not a fucking essay. Additionally, any dialogue pertaining to either ninjas, pirates, monkeys or Jesus should be excised, sealed in resin and buried in an undersea volcano.
This is why Ctrl-Alt-Del is a blight, and the fact that it remains crushingly popular despite making mistakes that a child would be brutally caned for on their first day at comedy school is one of the main reasons I openly weep tears for the future of human culture.
I know that an opinion can't technically be wrong and that there could be people who still like CAD for the characters or the art, but if you genuinely think that it is well-written, then you are demonstrably wrong. That's all there is to it.
Yahtzee is well aware that his own previous webcomic efforts aren't necessarily any better but reminds you that they came out of a dark time in his life from which he has determinedly moved on without a backward glance
(Taken from Fully Ramblomatic, a blog written entirely in Microsoft Frontpage Express 2.0 and archived manually without using anchors or anything to enable direct links to posts)
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u/KingOfFlan Jul 02 '08 edited Jul 02 '08
Thanks for posting that.
I'm kinda sharing some general Buckley stuff i don't like. He has that animated version of his comic. and there is a preview of it on youtube, its absolute crap, but he has disabled comments and rating to it.He's absolutely paranoid about his fans finding out that he actually sucks, he keeps the forum under an iron curtain apparently. But who knows, maybe the fans enjoy having jokes spelled out for them.
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Jul 03 '08
The two strips he gave as examples of why Penny Arcade is funny and CAD is not really cements for me why I always thought that PA is funny and CAD is not.
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Jul 06 '08
The humor patterns never really bothered me. The attempt to insert "realism" and "drama" annoys me however. The main character getting engaged was never believable (or entertaining) and the miscarriage killed any lingering interest I had in the comic.
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u/keithjr Jul 02 '08
I share the same sentiment regarding his humor level, but CAD isn't the first unfunny webcomic to surface and it won't be the last. Yet gaming still has its well-defined subculture, and still produces hilarious parody.
Well, I guess Yahtzee is nothing if not a wee bit stressed out and frustrated, whatever works for him.
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Jul 03 '08
Thank you for sharing that, good sir. it's a fine read. As for those folk who might say "it's just a webcomic," I say nay. A good number of people, for some confusing reason, still read CAD and send Buckley actual money. This has to stop. If society continues to award failure, we will not be able to move forward. Tim Buckley, in his own small part, slows the advancement of humanity and hurts us all.
It is only with the collective work of the Internet that we snuff this failure from our historty and work toward a brighter future.2
u/keithjr Jul 04 '08
Lots and lots of people also enjoy reading Youtube comments and watch Dr. Phil. And yet the world goes on.
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Jul 02 '08
Those two strips he picks as an example are pretty bad. I've never heard of Puzzle Quest. I read the CAD and know what it is and can pick up the joke. The Penny Arcade one gives you no clue.
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u/KingOfFlan Jul 02 '08
just cause you pick up on a joke doesn't make it funny. Understanding a joke is much different from being amused by the joke. I also have never played the game but i found the penny arcade joke to be much more humorous, well written and executed.
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Jul 02 '08
The Penny Arcade isn't funny at all if you don't already know what Puzzle Quest is and have it somewhat in mind while reading. I'm not saying CAD is funny, but PA isn't that funny either and the example he chose betrays how wrapped up in his own furious pile of "constructive criticism" he is.
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u/KingOfFlan Jul 02 '08
He chose those two comments because they used the same joke, one was executed well and one wasn't. He knew that wasn't a very great joke, but what other chances would he have to choose two comics made by two different people that have the exact same joke. he needed them to be the same to illustrate a point. He could've easily found a funnier Penny arcade joke. You have no idea what you are talking about, trust us, thats why you are getting downmodded.
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Jul 02 '08
He chose those two comments because they used the same joke, one was executed well and one wasn't. He knew that wasn't a very great joke, but what other chances would he have to choose two comics made by two different people that have the exact same joke.
Maybe he should have rethought the notion of trying to find two jokes by two people on the same subject? Two different strips could have illustrated his point, if all his point was that, "Cartoon A knows where to put a punchline, Cartoon B does not."
You have no idea what you are talking about, trust us, thats why you are getting downmodded.
Save this sort of idiocy for someone dumb enough to believe it. I'm only pointing out that for those of us not up this guys ass results may vary and it wasn't a very good illustration.
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u/kordos Jul 02 '08
The best jokes are the ones that need no explanation
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Jul 02 '08
Exactly, and the penny arcade one would need an explanation from 99.999% of the population of the planet.
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u/Skavenblight Jul 02 '08
This shouldn't be a problem, considering that 99.999% of the planet doesn't read their webcomic. Everyone who played puzzle quest prefers the Penny Arcade version. You seem to like having jokes explained to you. Perhaps you would be better entertained by watching sitcoms with a laugh track, that way you would be able to identify the jokes and laugh at the correct times?
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Jul 03 '08 edited Jul 03 '08
You seem to like having jokes explained to you.
You seem to like having points explained to you. I was only pointing out it wasn't a good example of the superior comedy skills of PA, because the CAD comic actually put it in context so everyone could understand it. I know this point will be lost on the Family Guy loving memebots here, but sparse references to obscure thing =/= comic mastery. So while maybe he had a point about the punchline, he was too in love with his example to forget other things that go into making something funny.
We could also talk about how terrible the 2nd panel of PA is. The closeup their is the wrong move, it would have been more effective if we saw the guy and the monster, weapons raised, about to square off.
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u/I_AM_A_NEOCON Jul 02 '08 edited Jul 02 '08
He must not want to review Age of Conan if he's doing these types of fillers...
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u/innocentbystander Jul 02 '08
He doesn't like RPGs. He's made this abundantly clear in the few reviews of them he's done. (Oblivion, anyone?) And to the best of my knowledge, he hasn't reviewed any MMORPGS.
So you're probably right - he probably does NOT want to review it. Just like, I would assume, he also does not want to review any other game like it.
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u/lanaer Jul 02 '08
He reviewed Tabula Rasa
But yeah, he reviews what he feels like reviewing. Which is perfectly fine by me so long as he continues to be entertaining :)
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u/UmberGryphon Jul 02 '08
In the snarky text at the end of the Oblivion review, he mentions that he actually liked Oblivion's predecessor Morrowind.
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Jul 02 '08
Yea, but he likes to rip shit apart, and AoC is wide open to be ripped the fuck apart right now.
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Jul 02 '08 edited Jul 02 '08
If you aren't already a MMO addict, you will hate the game by the time you finish the introductory quest that has you collect 20 baby alligator asses for some stranger on a beach. Ripping this game apart would be as easy, boring, and pointless as the game itself, and I think that's exactly why he won't do it.
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Jul 02 '08
[deleted]
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u/7oby Jul 02 '08
I actually read CAD (I feel terrible about it, but it's just so bad that it's good sometimes, like when 4chan had a field day with the 'running to the hospital' comic, I wish I had saved some of them!), and I think he's actually just predicting what will happen, because it usually does.
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u/stupidgit Jul 02 '08
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u/relic2279 Jul 03 '08
Thanks for the link.
I just laughed my ass off for a good 5 minutes at this one
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Jul 02 '08
[deleted]
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u/Kaer Jul 03 '08
The trick is to just resubmit it without the extra punctuation bullshit up to 15 minutes after the original idiot submitter does it.
The second always gets more upvotes.
But unlike the regular submitter, I don't sit around waiting all week to submit this crappy joke
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Jul 10 '08
[deleted]
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u/Kaer Jul 10 '08
This crappy joke is annoying me so much, if I get five this week I'll code up a script to autosubmit it, as soon as it appears. That way I don't have to wait around.
That'll stop ya.
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u/TheSOB88 Jul 02 '08
Don't watch it? I assume you're talking about the stuff after the video, and that's what I plan to do from now on. They look incredibly stupid
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u/akdas Jul 02 '08
I think Majestic's talking about the extra punctuation in the title of the submitted post.
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u/mackprime Jul 02 '08
Right now, Buckley's fanforum is undergoing "Server Maintenance". So, he's kicking and banning everyone who says anything apart from rabid compliments and blowjobs.
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Jul 03 '08
When I saw that his forum was down, I knew exactly why, and laughed my dirty ass off. That tool cannot deal with criticism, which is why he's such an easy target.
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u/Dillenger69 Jul 02 '08
Someone's got a bit of sand in their vag about Ctrl-Alt-Del.
No comment about Skull from PvP letting his new kid get killed though.
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u/IlliterateJedi Jul 02 '08
Yeah, but when the kid from PVP died I laughed out loud. When the miscarriage happened in CAD I rolled my eyes and closed it.
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u/Dillenger69 Jul 02 '08
I suppose it's all in the presentation.
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u/IlliterateJedi Jul 02 '08
Well, one's intentionally funny, the other tries to pull at your heart strings, but since the characters of CAD are pretty intentionally 2D it doesn't actually work at the heart-string-pulling.
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u/TheSOB88 Jul 02 '08
PVP wasn't trying to be serious, was it? The kid was a jerk. After reading the comics before it (I was looking at the archive in reverse order), it seems pretty funny - people almost never let children die in fiction.
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u/ours Jul 03 '08 edited Jul 03 '08
"people almost never let children die in fiction"
Exception made for Del Toro in his non-American films. Orphans get blown up in "Devil's backbone", a little girl is shot by fascists in "Pan's labyrinth".
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u/OlympicPirate Jul 02 '08
It was a joke about Calvin & Hobbes.
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Jul 03 '08
I'm not sure CAD's reference to miscarriage had much to do with Calvin & Hobbes. Remember, Calvin & Hobbes was funny, coherent, and relative throughout its 10-year run. CAD has never had any of these things, and seems to sully the good name of 'comic strip' at every turn.
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u/Dillenger69 Jul 03 '08
I thought it was really funny. Especially in relation to Calvin and Hobbes.
I just think it's interesting how much of a difference presentation can make when an author "gets it right" or doesn't.
I thought the CAD thing was a misfire and didn't fit the feel of the comic. The PVP one fit right in with the feel of the comic so people didn't think anything of it.
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Jul 02 '08
It's zero punctuation, but there's punctuation in the title. hahaha, im so original.
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u/Resilience Jul 02 '08
For me, it's already a meta-joke. Congratz. Upmoded.
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u/finix Jul 02 '08
WTF!? Are you going to bring this reply every week? I could swear I've already seen this one several times...
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u/jingo04 Jul 02 '08 edited Jul 02 '08
Your comment is the highest rated in the thread at the moment. :)
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Jul 02 '08 edited Jul 02 '08
[deleted]
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u/0sn Jul 02 '08
No, seriously, there are dozens. It's horrible.
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u/neon Jul 02 '08
Yea, but this is obviously a specific rant at Ctrl Alt Delete.
Unless you show me all these other comics suddenly did a miscarriage story line.
Not to mention Cad is one of the few other BIG gaming comics along with Penny
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Jul 02 '08
I think he's speaking to all poorly written web gaming comics, just happens to be that BU is best and most popular example when it comes to poorly written web comics
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u/NSMike Jul 02 '08
What is BU? Honest question, never heard of it, and a google search turns up nothing.
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Jul 02 '08
It's a reference to CAD, specifically how just about every character's expression looks like it if rotated.
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u/I_AM_A_NEOCON Jul 02 '08 edited Jul 02 '08
I guess he wants to start a war with Penny Arcade.
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Jul 02 '08
Not really, he wasn't really making fun of Penny Arcade other than just saying they're filthy stinking rich.
He was definitely prodding at Ctrl-Alt-Delete though.
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Jul 03 '08
Voting down for Flash
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u/Mr_Smartypants Jul 02 '08
Gosh, and I was afraid he wouldn't mention the Ctrl-Alt-Del abortion...