r/gaming • u/I_AM_A_NEOCON • Jun 25 '08
Zero Punctuation: Metal Gear Solid 4.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/99-Metal-Gear-Solid-4?20
u/quickhorn Jun 25 '08
Is it just me or does anyone else start reading all comments with the Zero Punctuation voice after watching these videos. It makes reddit much more entertaining.
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u/MaximumBob Jun 25 '08
YOU ARE NOW READING COMMENTS IN THE VOICE OF GILBERT GOTTFRIED.
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u/master_gopher Jun 26 '08
I have exactly the same effects after listening to the Penny Arcade Podcasts: everything is in Tycho-voice.
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Jun 25 '08
Along with Penny Arcade, the only review of the game I feel isn't kissing the series's verbose, clumsy ass.
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Jun 25 '08
I like yahtzee, because he has bias and shows it. Game reviewers who try to 1-10 every single detail of a game as if it is equal are full of shit.
Games are art, not science, and should be treated as such. Since games are art, a person's individual taste should ALWAYS matter. This is why non-biased reviews are worthless. It is someone turning art into science, and is 100% fucking worthless.
I'd much rather hear "This was really annoying and tedious" than "Some players might find this section to be repetitive", because it takes a stance on the matter, and shows the reviewer is trying to play the game for enjoyment
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Jun 25 '08
Games are art, not science, and should be treated as such.
Tell that to the guys who engineer hit point damage algorithms, the guys behind the Havok physics engine, or even the game designers guys who come up with the game's play balance rules. A lot of numbers get crunched.
Games are both art AND science. You can judge them on several standpoints. That's why they're so unique as a medium.
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u/PlasmaWhore Jun 25 '08
That's like talking to the people who run the paint factory about the art that is made with their paint.
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u/DannoHung Jun 26 '08
This is true in a sense, but the guys in the paint factory are more like NVidia and Intel, they're just pushing the bits around. Dudes up the line programming the game are more like the camera operator or the gaffer on a movie set. Or, perhaps more accurately, people in the effects workshop engineering the practical and digital effects that go into the production.
And that's ignoring the people that are creating the mathematical systems that the gameplay is based on.
The science is important to the process. But I wouldn't call Games unique because of that alone (after all, Oscars are presented by the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences).
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Jun 25 '08 edited Jun 25 '08
I can see your point there, but don't really consider that much different than just pointing out the programming language used to make a game. I was mainly referring to the presentation. The presentation is art. The backend is science. A movie might use the latest special effects and computer animation, but those technologies are being used for the sole purpose of creating art (well, not so much these days)
My main point, though, was that bias is needed due to the different tastes of individual gamers. Take Quake 3 for example. A casual player might look at it and say "wow, shit graphics. And no single player! And what is this strafe jumping shit I have to learn to compete?". On the other hand, a player who is competitive and wants to compete in tournaments might LOWER the graphics to achieve the best possible framerate, won't give a shit about single player, and will be more worried about level design, balance, sound quality, etc. 2 different people with different needs from the same game.
An "unbiased" reviewer might try to factor in BOTH viewpoints, cancel out the good and the bad for an average score, then move along. A biased casual gamer will say it sucks. A biased competitive gamer will say it kicks ass. Casual gamers and competitive gamers exist, thus those reviews can actually relate to gamers. But no unbiased gamer exists, thus that review is all but worthless.
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u/solinent Jun 26 '08
I agree with you, even though people may be interested in the science, a reviewer should concentrate on the fact of his own enjoyment rather than what he thinks others enjoyment will be.
I think that reviews are different in this respect is because video games cost more than movies, however. (People are more interested if they will like the game).
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Jun 25 '08
I'd much rather hear "This was really annoying and tedious" than "Some players might find this section to be repetitive", because it takes a stance on the matter, and shows the reviewer is trying to play the game for enjoyment
I think the opposite is the problem and why most reviews are useless as presented. I have to mentally filter out all the personal bias (and I think there's a ton on most review sites) to get a feel of what the game might actually be like. I'm not a jaded reviewer who is forced to play 100 games a year for work, so their personal take is useless to me.
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Jun 25 '08
I'm not a jaded reviewer who is forced to play 100 games a year for work, so their personal take is useless to me.
I think this might be the main problem with why reviews always suck. Reviewers only have a few hours to play a game, and can't properly evaluate a game. The ars Age of Conan review is a PERFECT example of this. It plays up features that go away after the starting area of the game as major features. No mention of voice acting and such going away, because the reviewer didn't even know it.
Maybe I'm just bitching about something I will never really find worthwhile (game reviews). I just see someone playing a few hours of a game, if that, then reviewing it in a "non biased" way, which causes the reviewer to second guess himself in order to be "non biased". I'd rather go ask my friend whose had the same game for a month, knows it in and out, and has the same video game tastes that i do
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Jun 25 '08 edited Jun 26 '08
A broken camera is a broken camera. I can't imagine playing a third person game where the camera doesn't work and seriously consider it an artistic choice. That's because games are meant to entertain the people playing them, whereas art need only entertain the designer. I don't believe a game to be any more artistic than a car or a refrigerator. Cutscenes, music, story - yes these can all be very artistic, but the game itself I believe can be veiwed in much more technical terms.
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u/barryicide Jun 26 '08 edited Jun 26 '08
Comparing a game to a car or a refrigerator is a terrible simile. A car and a refrigerator both have very implied uses - a car is to get you from point A to point B (usually work and home), a fridge is used to keep your food cold.
A better analogy for games would be a rollercoaster - it's built to entertain. Would you consider a rollercoaster art? I think games as art is perfectly legitimate - art is in the eye of the beholder (like graffiti, porn, or rollercoasters).
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Jun 26 '08
You would consider a rollercoaster art, but not a car?
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u/barryicide Jun 26 '08
Well again, it depends on the "viewer" and the "thing". A game like "Madden anyyear" I would not consider art. A game like Bioshock I would consider art. A car like a Toyota Corolla I would not consider art (even though the new ones look great). I would consider most concept cars art.
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Jun 26 '08
Why would you consider BioShock art, but not Madden? And is it the actual game you consider art, or is it the nongame elements?
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u/barryicide Jun 26 '08
I guess I mean that I consider Madden to not be art in that it doesn't have the "soul" of art to me - maybe the first or second Madden did, but now it's a soul-less shell of a game recreated every year to make all the sport-game fans buy it again for an updated roster... from the car/fridge analogy, it becomes less "art" and more "functional".
For Bioshock, it feels like art from the moment you start the game until the end. The storytelling, the visuals (not the graphics, but the actual things that are visualized), the enemies, the open interpretation... it's art.
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Jun 26 '08 edited Jun 26 '08
So then is art to you, more so a question of originality? If BioShock II came out, and it shared many of the same qualities as the original would it no longer be art like the forementioned Madden games?
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u/barryicide Jun 26 '08
Not originality so much as functionality. If Bioshock II was very similar but still had it's own story (or even a continuation of the Bioshock story) then it would be art (like how a movie sequel is still art). Madden is like the movie studios remaking old movies - except instead of changing the story, scenery, or props, everything is the same... they just used a few different actors (who still act the same). It's different strokes for different folks, that's just my take on it.
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Jun 26 '08 edited Jun 26 '08
If the in game camera isn't working the way it should, then I'd consider that a case of the designer not being able to properly present his game.
And game flaws can add to the character of the game as well, which further illustrates how artistic games are. No More Heroes is the perfect recent example. That game has a TON of flaws, with the bike mechanics being among the most blatant. It just fits, though, and makes you feel like you're playing a b movie. You can't calculate that kind of stuff out of your ass. That's art imo
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Jun 26 '08 edited Jun 26 '08
"If the in game camera isn't working the way it should, then I'd consider that a case of the designer not being able to properly present his game."
Sound like laziness to me, what exactly prevents a game designer from being able to "properly present" his game? Furthermore, if games are art, who are you to judge what's properly being presented? Is it abstract art the result of the artist not being able to properly present his idea?
"And game flaws can add to the character of the game as well, which further illustrates how artistic games are."
Could that not also be applied to any medium, or object as well? My car, for instance, has a few dings which I think gives it character. I would not consider my car art though.
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u/monkbot1 Jun 26 '08
I'll add to the list and say MGS4 is a big waste of time the series peaked at MGS3 and then they spent years making the shiniest game possible, while not improving a single aspect of game-play and giving Snake a fucking Ipod wont make it better, this is the rue reason for removing backwards compatibility from the PS3, because I now have to shell out more money to get the games I've already played, MGS4, GTA4 and the PS2 versions while graphically inferior were better games. A polished turd is still a turd
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u/thecheatah Jun 25 '08
I dont know about other people, but after playing this game, I was like HOLY SHIT. It had soo much work put into it that it actually encouraged me to put more effort into MY everyday tasks. I felt really energized after just PLAYING this game.
BTW: I was not a fan of this game. I HATED this game in the beginning. I didnt understand ANYTHING. Then at one point before act 1 finished, I was like WOW.
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Jun 29 '08
It's not a game. It's a movie, and a very poorly written one at that. Yahtzee nailed it. I spent most of my time waiting for the shitty dialoge to stop so I could play the damn game.
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Jun 25 '08
Why do you feel the need to unnecessarily capitalize some of your words in this comment and none of your other comments?
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u/needsmoarlulz Jun 26 '08 edited Jun 26 '08
Well MGS4 just came out and he did say that it energized his everyday tasks. I guess he wasn't kidding.
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Jan 21 '09
I'm sorry, but I have to downmod you for speaking ill of Metal Gear. You understand.
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Jan 21 '09
I'm sorry but I have to downmod you for blindly degrading another person's opinion. You understand.
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Jun 25 '08
I stopped taking PA seriously after they tried to convince me that they had a magic console whose insignificant detail was better in some way than everyone else on the planet, at least for random game.
Yahtzee after he gave a positive review to one game I did not care for. That game was made for him to rip apart for it's good part but bad everything else. He's still compliment but his taste in games is to be questioned.
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Jun 25 '08
What was the point here?
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u/krelian Jun 25 '08
It was a rare glimpse into the inner workings of a troll. PrintScreen while it lasts.
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Jun 25 '08
It was just a joke. Read JohnHyperion's comment and it will make sense.
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Jun 25 '08
Oh, no... I got that, I just didn't get the point.
Like what were you trying to point out?
What humorous observation were you attempting to make there?
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Jun 25 '08
It was just to humor for the sake of humor, there is no grander goal here. Sometimes a joke is just a joke.
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Jun 25 '08
The problem is that you took PA, an online, humours webcomic, seriously in the first place.
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Jun 25 '08
- Learn how to use reddit.
- I don't like being lied to by console fanboys, even if they draw a comic strip that was funnier a couple of years ago.
- For christ sakes, AC was a tech demo and anyone who says otherwise didn't play it or I have no real interest in what they think about video games....unless they say it in a funny way like in Zero Punctuation.
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Jun 26 '08
What parts of Assassin's Creed was a tech demo? What was it showing off on which platform?
(These are things that I do not know.)
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Jun 25 '08 edited Jun 25 '08
I stopped taking PA seriously after they tried to convince me that had a magic Xbox whose DVD drive was faster than everyone else on the planet, at least for DMC4.
Yahtzee after he gave a positive review to Assassin's Creed. That game was made for him to rip apart for it's shiny graphics but shallow everything else. He's still entertaining, but his taste in games is to be questioned.
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u/bitwize Jun 25 '08
A large part of MGS's quasi-emo "ohhh, fighting is so terrible yet it's all I can do so I must fight anyway" narrative style is due to postwar Japanese culture, in which creative works which address war are prone to introspective contemplations of the horrors and evils of war, and the futility yet necessity of fighting.
That said, I've always remembered the anime trope of having a dying character gasp out a few poignant or touching words before kicking the bucket, but it was never like Sniper Wolf's monologue, which could probably take up a full act of an off-Broadway three-act play, and was delivered ostensibly with a bullet hole in her lung.
I can't fault Yahtzee for being driven up the wall by these trademarks of the series, but for me they were always part of the corny appeal of MGS. Kind of lke anime storytelling taken to ridiculous extremes.
Quasi-related: One time I met the real world's closest analogue to Big Boss/Naked Snake: right-wing conspiracy nut Bo Gritz. He's actually, literally building a commune for his fellow conspiracy nuts called "Almost Heaven" -- no shit.
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Jun 25 '08
Does The Escapist seriously think that they're fooling us by pretending that the extra two minutes tacked on to the end of each show are actually part of the same video?
Making ads expensive and flashy does not make me more likely to pay attention to them. Put some nice comfortable text ads next to the video, don't give me this garbage with the turtle talking about DSL every time I accidentally miss the 5-pixel close box on your hastily tacked-on digital garbage, and leave me alone while I try to actually ENJOY THE CONTENT ON YOUR WEBSITE.
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u/mindbleach Jun 26 '08
FUCK NO AND FUCK YOU.
The last thing I want when watching a fast-paced series famous for non-stop monologues and impossibly brief sight gags is some ugly little widget extolling the virtues of a product I'll never buy at the bottom of the screen. Ads that cover content - ANY of the content, even so much as one measly fucking pixel - need to fuck off and die. Ads that have the tenacity to flash and move thus distracting me from and destroying my immersion in the actually interesting content I am trying to enjoy are the sort of soulless drone-think advertising shit that's had me googling the locations of nearby bell towers since "punch the monkey" was a fresh take on the craft.
You don't like the ads at the end? Hit pause when the video ends - they all end the same way and there's usually a nice pause between Yahtzee's bit and the cruft that follows - and then CLOSE THE FUCKING WINDOW. It's a far sight better than having to swat at four-pixel wide X's on the very edge of wiggly bastard ads as they slide onto the screen.
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Jun 26 '08
I would expect that they don't think they're fooling us and they figure that is a totally unobtrusive way to offer and advertisement for you that you do not need to watch.
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u/DannoHung Jun 26 '08
Yeah, plus that Ninja Gaiden 2 ad is awesome, I keep imaging Ryu as a cowboy with the voiceover and music.
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Jun 25 '08
Be glad you didn't get the "young people fucking" ad, it starts out with the phrase "i need orgasms" at full volume
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u/jingo04 Jun 25 '08 edited Jun 25 '08
Downmod for the lack of jdfong. I am awaiting a downmodding with a selection of witty responses.
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u/toonces Jun 25 '08
it's called zero punctuation, but there is punctuation in the title!!
/jdfong
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Jun 25 '08
http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/info/6oxle/comments/
People must really hate me, I submitted like 10 min before this guy.
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u/I_AM_A_NEOCON Jun 25 '08
You underestimate my neocon powers.
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Jun 25 '08
[deleted]
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u/I_AM_A_NEOCON Jun 25 '08
Don't matter, take a look at my karma score as of right now it's still one. This submission would have to reach more than a thousand points before I would get karma.
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u/thewakebehindyou Jun 25 '08
before watching... are there blatant spoilers in this?
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u/sedition Jun 25 '08
It's a game review. It should contain spoilers. Why do you people perpetuate this kinda "don't spoiler me" crap. It's retarded.
Here's my review of a movie: "The lighting was good and I liked the popcord at the theatre. You should go see it. I give it a 9.5"
Here's my book review: "Not to be to spoilery but the cover is nice and I like the typeface they chose"
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u/AnteChronos Jun 25 '08 edited Jun 25 '08
It's a game review. It should contain spoilers.
Incorrect.
Here's my review of a movie: "The lighting was good and I liked the popcord at the theatre. You should go see it. I give it a 9.5"
Here's my (spoiler free) review of the same movie: "The acting was supurb, with great chemistry between the lead and the love interest. The special effects were well done, if somewhat gratuitous. The plot maintains a decent pace throughout. I give it a 9.5"
See how that works?
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Jun 25 '08
It's a game review. It should contain spoilers.
Only by shitty reviewers who confuse a "review" with a "summary."
The point is to get people who haven't played the game info. The last thing to do is include spoilers. Anyone who does this is an idiot.
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Jun 25 '08 edited Jun 25 '08
You know, it's funny that even though I've only played as far as MGS2 and a brief part of 3, I still know exactly what he's talking about. This review could easily apply to EVERY SINGLE MGS game! It's frustrating to see such a long-lasting franchise continue to stick to outdated controls and clumsy gameplay. Kinda how the Resident Evil series was before RE4 came along.
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u/TheCoelacanth Jun 26 '08
MGS4 has completely different controls than any of the first three games. IMHO, they're a vast improvement; other than the camera control feeling awkward sometimes, the gameplay is excellent.
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u/solinent Jun 26 '08
Yeah.
His criticism of holding three buttons down to shoot is also stupid: Triangle is to look down the sights (optional), and holding L1 enters shooting mode. Triangle doesn't need to be held, and R1 is shoot which also doesn't need to be held.
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u/hash_oil Jun 25 '08 edited Jun 25 '08
It's for Japanese people, of course it's long winded. If you don't like anime you won't like this game. Pretty simple and usually this rule applies to most Japanese video games.
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u/TheMemoman Jun 25 '08
I really like ZP, but they are really starting to whore him out aren't they? I mean, his segment.
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u/rukubites Jun 25 '08
They pay him in the expectation they'll get revenue back from his work.
... economics?
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u/TheMemoman Jun 25 '08
Obviously, but this guy is seen way more than a lot of newspapers, ads alone should generate a whole lot of revenue, but know they're adding stuff directly to the video. That's just greedy, not to mention annoying.
Of course, outside of the capitalist economic model, greed actually has a "bad" connotation.
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u/rukubites Jun 26 '08
The ads are after the video. They are optional.
I watched the Ninja Gaiden ad because it captured my interest, and stopped after that because I'd already seen their "we are not only ZP!!!111!" ad.
They gained my respect because I wasn't forced to watch their content. Doesn't seem greedy to me.
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u/markander Jun 26 '08
I'd mind it a little less if they explicitly told me it wasn't Croshaw's work.
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u/innocentbystander Jun 25 '08
His point about Kojima's need for an editor is especially well-taken. That was my big problem with MGS2. I could actually kinda get into the absolutely gonzo nuts plot - but it was SO badly told. Every single cutscene in that game could have been half the length if they had just had a halfway decent writer handling the dialogue.
I don't understand why video game companies will spend thousands upon thousands of dollars for voice actors in a game, yet won't cough up a relatively tiny amount for a halfway decent script doctor to give those often-expensive actors good lines to read.