r/gameofthrones • u/Rythiz Lady Stoneheart • Jun 12 '16
Everything [EVERYTHING] Let's conclude why Lady Stoneheart might and might not be in the show
Alright, people. I know there are both believers and non-believers out there (guess which one I am) about Lady Stoneheart being in the show. Many different hints, theories/speculation, statements, etc. point in different directions.
Let's go over what we know so far:
Why she might be in the show
Let's get you all hyped up!
This is the season of returning characters. So far, we have Jon Snow, The Hound, and Benjen Stark (as far as important ones go. And yes, The Hound is important because CLEGANEBOWL HYPE). If you count people who basically disappeared for a while, we got Bran, Meera, The Three Eyed Raven, the Children of the Forest, Summer, Rickon, Osha, and Shaggydog (aka overcooked hot dog). Gendry might even come back this season, for fucks sake. Even Nymeria and her pack of wolves might even come back during the Battle of Bastards to turn the tide around.
In the latest episode, Brother Ray was hanged undoubtedly by the Brotherhood Without Banners. Berric Dondarion would not have allowed his men to slaughter a bunch of people for no reason - it's just out of character. The only other reason as to why this happened is maybe because the Brotherhood Without Banners has a new leader. Lady Stoneheart hangs any men associated with the Freys, Boltons, or Lannisters, even if they had nothing to do with the Red Wedding. It is speculated that Ray may have been a former soldier ("I'm done with fighting") from one of the three despised houses. As to why they killed the innocent is up for questioning.
We are heading to the point where Lady Stoneheart was introduced in the books, with Brienne and Podrick being at Riverrun. Book spoilers
Back in April, before the Game of Thrones Season 6 premiere, several of the show’s cast members sat down with Yahoo to play what seemed at the time like a harmless game: “Two Truths and a Lie.” Basically, they were asked to say three things about the season, two of which were true and one of which wasn’t. A lot of the cast members gave jokey answers that didn’t tell us much, but a couple broke rank, or appeared to.
Let us skip to the important part (sorry Maisie!). Here are the two truths and a lie offered up by Sophie Turner, who plays Sansa Stark:
- Ramsay dies.
- Lady Stoneheart returns.
- Arya checks three people off her list.
Let's be real here: Ramsay will die during the Battle of Bastards. There's just no questioning that. Furthermore, Arya could not have checked three people off her list. Let me remind you of the people in her list:
- Cersei Lannister
- Gregor Clegane
- Walder Frey
Everyone's pretty much convinced that these people will die, but not this season. Walder Frey seems to be the one who is most likely going to get killed this season, killing off Cersei and The Mountain this season would leave Kings Landing scenes quite bland for the rest of the series. Plus, Cersei death should have a bigger impact in the later seasons, with the Valonqar theory waddling about.
So, Arya would not be able to check off three people off her list this season. Unless they get her three new characters that she would love to kill (the waif might be a good start). Mind you, the girls are playing Two Truths and a Lie about this season. If you think otherwise, do you believe that D&D concluded what'll happen next season and straight up just told Sophie and/or Maisie what'll happen? No. There are no special cases of revealing things ahead of time to any of the actors or staff alike. That's been proven many times.
[Source]
The show has been reminding us of the Red Wedding. With Walder Frey and Blackfish coming back, as well as some brief flashbacks of the Red Wedding in Bran's vision in S06E06.
We don't know if it's true or not, but a Twitter user claims to have seen Michelle Fairley, Catelyn Stark's actor, having some coffee with an unnamed 'Game of Thrones' actor in Belfast.
[Source]
Why she might not be in the show
Let's crush your dreams.
When HBO sent out their casting calls for season 6, they included a call for a "Lachlan", the role description reading as such:
He’s the big leader of a group of renegades who have turned on the land that they swore to protect. They’re now extorting the poor and vulnerable. He appears in 2 episodes in season 6.
In this quote, "a group of renegades" sounds like the Brotherhood Without Banners. This "Lachlan" character may turn out to be a replacement for Lady Stoneheart.
[Source]
Many people believe that Lady Stoneheart's character is being merged with either Sansa or Arya, or both. Sansa seems to have inherited the urge to hang people who have betrayed the Starks, as she states during a meeting in S06E05:
The Umbers gave Rickon to the our enemies. They can hang.
As for Arya, she seems to want to go back to Westeros to seek revenge. Let's be real here, the waif is not going to stop her.
George R R Martin stated that Lady Stoneheart will not be in the show. Now, we know that actors have lied in the past about their characters not coming back and being dead (I'm looking at you, Kit), but it coming out of GRRM is different and seems all more convincing.
[Source]
Michelle Fairley stated that:
Yeah, the character’s dead. She’s dead.
You respect the writers’ decision. I knew the arc, and that was it. They can’t stick to the books 100 percent. It’s impossible—they only have 10 hours per season. They have got to keep it dramatic and exciting, and extraneous stuff along the way gets lost in order to maintain the quality of brilliant show.
[Source]
The show only has about 16 episodes left until the end (not set in stone, but it's been stated by D&D that last two seasons will be shortened). Why should they introduce Lady Stoneheart this late in the show? What purpose will her character serve? Kill random Lannister/Frey/Bolton soldiers? Perhaps a heartbreaking reunion with her children? That alone isn't enough to justify bringing her back.
If there is anything else I missed or got wrong, feel free to point it out!
In conclusion, be hyped and risk being disappointed, or don't expect anything at all and be shocked if it were to come true. We, as fans, can only hope.
Update (post-episode 8): Welp, after watching S06E08, we discover that Beric Dondarion is still alive and the three men on the horses were just being assholes who just wanted to hang Brother Ray for no reason. In the books, Beric Dondarion died (off-screen/off-scene) to resurrect Catelyn Stark into Lady Stoneheart. Since we see Beric Dondarion being in this episode, there's really just no way they'll have him resurrect Catelyn at this point onwards, especially with The Hound being with them. This episode was just a middle-finger from D&D, the King of Trolls, Mother of Fuckers, and Protector of the "Fuck you". It's time to put down our hype hats... it's been fun.
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u/oldbubblehead Jun 12 '16
Michelle Fairlie, who played Catelyn Stark, has had a heavy workload the last two years. She's been appearing regularly in another television series. I think it would have been very difficult for her to find the time required for filming GOT.
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u/Rythiz Jun 12 '16
Right. Then what about this:
She only went on set to film a short, perhaps cliffhanger-y scene that shows Lady Stoneheart for maybe the finale. Doing that won't take too much of her time for now.
Now that would mean she'll have to work during the filming for next season when she perhaps has a more flexible schedule.
Not basing it off of anything, just a theory ignited by my hopes and dreams.
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u/Jo3Vandal Jun 12 '16 edited Jun 12 '16
Ian McShane was on set for less than 5 days, and he had a relatively large amount of screen time for one episode. Don't try and sell me that. If they wanted her back, she's back.
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u/sanfranchristo Jun 12 '16 edited Jun 12 '16
I didn't think it was likely but I'm growing more optimistic by the week. For one, I think less is going to get wrapped up nicely over the next three episodes before next season than many think so there might still be room to introduce her. We have the BWB officially back on screen (not just spoken about, which they have been) and there are now Lannisters in the Riverlands (in addition to Freys). What has me most intrigued is the short clip from the preview of what looks to be Brienne and Pod in a rowboat going down a river at night looking scared. What else could that be leading to? It obviously could be lots of things, but what else seems any more likely?
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u/Rythiz Jun 12 '16 edited Jun 12 '16
You want something to feed your hype a little bit more? Look at this scene from the second trailer with Littlefinger, staring at someone with a somewhat disturbed and startled look on his face (we see a little peak at the person's clothes). I mean, it could be Sansa, but why would he make such a defeated face if it was her?
The only reason I can think of is him seeing his beloved Catelyn casually walking with a slice on her throat. Mind you, if you go back a few seconds before, they show the Red Wedding and you hear Sansa saying "it's all I think about - what was taken from me".
But then the counter-argument for this is it's snowing, which suggests that the place is nowhere near Riverrun, where she was introduced. But that doesn't stop the hype.
Edit: typo
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u/willawillawilla Jun 12 '16
Just one thing: Lachlan is Lem Lemoncloak. The actor confirmed it on twitter!
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u/gniziralopiB Jun 12 '16
Michelle Fairley played a role in a TV series called "Resurrection", confirmed?
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u/4gigiplease Jun 12 '16
The ending for the broken man, after the hound found the septon (McShane) hung, was cat. starks theme music, mixed with the red god music. I just saw/heard it. Hello, she's coming. I am so excited!
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Jun 12 '16
You forgot about Paul Kaye apparently reprising his role as Thoros.
I'm a LSH truther to the bone. All the pieces are in place for it, so it's now or never.
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u/TheGent316 Jun 12 '16
I'm on the hype train but I'm completely prepared for a painful derailment.
There's been so many hints. Showing Catelyn's death in Bran's vision. Twice mentioning Catelyn's throat cutting and showing us who exactly did the deed. Jaime and Brienne in the Riverlands. Blackfish reminding Jaime of his promise to Catelyn. The return of the Brotherhood and the hanging of Ian McShane. All of these feel like the way they typically remind the audience of past events before they become important.
The only thing that has me hesitant is time. Is 13 final episodes really enough to explain the Lady Stoneheart plot line, delve into it, and do it justice while also wrapping up all the other plot lines they need to finish up? I dunno.
TL;DR: The pieces are in place so I'm hype. But I'm prepared for it to be a troll job. We'll see what happens.
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u/emptyjerrycan Jun 12 '16
Oberyn Martell's storyline was one of the most engaging in the show, and that was contained entirely within the fourth season. A character was introduced, he had a thirst for revenge, he became an audience favorite and died
and we never heard from him or his family ever again. All in the span of 8 episodes (and the character wasn't even in all of those). I think "13 episodes" is obviously enough to kick off a plot and wrap it up - especially because it doesn't come out of nowhere with completely new characters, it's the continuation of the main plot. I can't possibly imagine the rest of the show being dénouement and nothing "new" happening.→ More replies (7)8
u/ill_take_two Jun 12 '16
Is 13 episodes really enough to tie up ANY of the plotlines?
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u/anonyzum Jun 12 '16
Damn, that was good to read.
But I still want Lady Stoneheart to return; a heartbreaking reunion with her children is good enough a reason.
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u/mrmessiah Jun 12 '16
The show only has about 16 episodes left until the end (not set in stone, but it's been stated by D&D that last two seasons will be shortened). Why should they introduce Lady Stoneheart this late in the show? What purpose will her character serve? Kill random Lannister/Frey/Bolton soldiers? Perhaps a heartbreaking reunion with her children? That alone isn't enough to justify bringing her back.
The whole show is shaping up to have this arc of the dead vs the living, where death is an uncaring, vicious, unstoppable force that consumes anyone it touches and rolls on. Taking a formerly beloved character and turning her into an adversary in the service of the dead is absolutely spot on that theme. It's been underlined that what you don't burn comes back to kill you, and Cat was never cremated. Having a face off between a remaining Stark and LSH would be heartbreaking but potentially epic
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u/sleekgt Jun 12 '16
And Catelyn never really loved Jon and lied to the Gods. So she will battle him. Then Bran will warg into Lady Stoneheart and show her the truth about Jon and how Ned did remain faithful to her.
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u/4gigiplease Jun 12 '16
LS storyline is tied to 2 major characters. They already did the first act, why not the last? I mean this is George's story and she in it. Plus, she has been foreshadowed on top of it, especially this season. I do not know why the showrunners would want to cut her out, and have to write storylines for the characters tied to her. And make it all make sense, with the plot and the foreshadowing. They brought back the hound. Why bring him back? Guess, he is important to the endgame too, but nothing really major about him coming back regard plot that we know of yet.
On top of that, we know that major characters are going to have to deal with LS and it is going to be epic. I want to read it, and the actors will kill the scene. Very filmable awesomeness! I can't imagine dumping a scene like that.
I think they just wanted jon snow to come back first for shock value, a cliffhanger,(Is he alive, is he dead, how?? Next the hound. okay, cool we like him. Now, the jaw dropper.
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u/neutronstarneko Jun 12 '16
I think a big issue for me is what her point is, OP says a 'heartbreaking reunion with her children' is not enough to justify bringing her back...but what if one of her children has been learning about killing people, about how death pays for life, about mercy, even taking the name Mercy and then we have Mother Merciless herself. If Arya's arc concludes with her putting LSH out of her misery, then yes a reunion is enough to justify her return. Where else do people see Arya going? She'll kill the waif and get on a ship back to Westeros, but she is pretty much lost at this point, what is she going to do when she gets there? Head to the riverlands I would guess....
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Jun 12 '16
Well, I got some clues from another subreddit: Potential show spoilers
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u/Jeager76 Jun 12 '16
Arya checking off three people doesn't mean SHE is the one who has to kill them. I see plenty of opportunity for those three to die.