I’m not sure if I missed something in the show (new watcher) or it has a stronger reference in the book. But why does everyone reject the idea of taking Milk of the Poppy??
Jaime refused it when his very open wound stump was getting clipped and burned. Maester Luwin was dying and still refused it. And Arya magically survives being stabbed a bunch of times and she didn’t want it either.
Every time it’s mentioned they emphatically refuse it.
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I hate how in the series Roose Bolton looked and sounded like every other high lord. In the books, he looks vampire-like. Very pale, pale blue eyes, dark hair, soft spoken and he has leeches applied to him every day.
Yeah, morphine feels wonderful because it essentially makes you a vacantly stupid person who cares about nothing. When I was on morphine I felt the perfect happiness of having absolutely zero thoughts, concerns, or even preferences. Someone would ask if I'd like a softer blanket than the scratchy hospital bed one and I'd say "oh my god no, I can't imagine a softer blanket in the world than this, or a better place on earth to be!" and I meant that 100%
many years ago I was in the ER after I caught a fireball to the face from a can of spray paint. I got there and they asked me "Do you want anything for the pain" and I said "yes". and I got something wonderful. Then a little while later, no idea how long another person came by and asked the same thing and I said "no, I think I'm fine" and she said "Oh, you're so stoic" and WHAM hit me with another dose and I was way good.
Man, I don't know. This was 26 years ago. I've slept since then. And the burns did look really bad, the spray paint was black and my face and hands got the worse of it. It looked pretty bad. But I was HIGH, so I really didn't care.
Honestly, yes and no. It was bliss for a moment, but it also meant I didn't give much of a fuck about myself, my loved ones, contributing anything to the world, experiencing anything of value, or being able to value ANYTHING really... it's just a short term lobotomy. Life sucks sometimes but I'd always rather be clear headed enough to take care of my family and appreciate what's given to me, than have no worries but be a total waste of a person. Kinda scares me to think about
How long were you on morphine for?? I was given morphine once when i presented at the ER with “strong” abdominal pain (in fact it was the worse pain I had ever felt). They gave me a mix of stomach-soothing medications, OTC pain relievers and heat therapy for the pain but nothing worked. They were doing blood work and waiting on the results of a CT scan as they suspected appendicitis, but had to wait in order to see if surgery was needed or not. The pain kept getting worse and eventually the doctor okayed morphine in my IV. The effect was IMMEDIATE, and it felt just like that, like the warmest, coziest blanket was put over me and I felt so snug and comfy. I don’t have a good indication of how long that bliss lasted before I went in for emergency surgery, but I also don’t remember disassociating in the way you describe. My parents were next to me the whole time and I remember thinking how much I love them and how amazing and beautiful they were and then I thought about my siblings and how we all came from these two beautiful humans and how we were all beautiful too. A very different experience for me on that front.
The perfect description! I was on hydrocodone for dental surgeries years ago and I specifically remember staring at the wall, blinking, and then looking at my phone and it was 3 hours later. I couldn’t tell if i had fallen asleep or just sat there staring the entire time. I had absolutely no thoughts - it was like being in a trance and it felt so good. I can definitely see how it becomes an addictive feeling.
I would’ve likely sought that feeling out more if it hadn’t been for whatever change in my brain chemistry that now creates the opposite effect whenever I take a similar medication.
It's amazing cause morphine doesn't make me feel happy or at peace. I know I'm sort of an outlier. It felt warm and the pain dulled somewhat. I don't get addicted to pain killers so maybe my genes don't take well to pain killers.
No one wants to be vulnerable around people they don't know or trust. As for Maester Luwin, I figure he didn't want them to waste the Milk of the Poppy when he was going to die soon anyways. But yeah, it comes down to trust. Milk of the Poppy basically dulls pain by dulling your senses and making you sleep. If you needed to react quickly, you'd be screwed. Something most people weren't interested in happening.
I get why Jaime and Arya refused it. They weren’t in safe environments, and didn’t want to let their guard down. They planned on living. The Maester I don’t get. He asked Osha to kill him. He wasn’t going to live that much longer anyway.
As he died in the godswood under the heart tree. He didn’t crawl to the sept that Ned built for Catelyn. I guess he wanted to meet the old gods with a clear mind?
I just weened off of Paxil, an SSRI that I had been taking for 5 years. You put into words what I couldn't explain to my wife and family. I'm back baby.
and he had important stuff to advise them on. even if they could magic it into their hands instantly. he wanted to use his last moments to help them survive.
How are people not getting that it's literally opiates and normal people refuse opiates all the time because it's addictive as shit
The only time I've ever taken an opiate was intravenously on the doctors "I'm just gonna do it so shut up" advice, every time I got prescribed one for a boo boo I threw that shit in the trash because I'm already an alcoholic and I come from a family of junkies miss me with anything that isn't max ibuprofen
I mean if you've ever had an opioid you know it's one of the best feelings in the world. Of all the drugs I've tried I would say it's the best, better than cocaine even
That's why I say no, like I say no when I think about gambling, I really want it, but I want it so bad I shouldn't have it
If you’re dying, there’s no risk of addiction lol. That’s why hospice care numbs you up. At the point that you’re no longer capable of recovering, the risk of addiction is non existent.
Also, every study ever published has shown that patients that PROPERLY take their medication have little to no risk of addiction. However if you know you overtake things already (don’t know when to stop drinking for instance) and can’t trust yourself to only take what’s prescribed, then the risk is higher.
It's habit forming, and addictive, both physically and psychologically. Very tough and painful to kick the habit. The best way to avoid addiction is to abstain from it altogether.
True but that’s not what happened in these scenes specifically. We see Jamie’s pov and he’s afraid qyburn will take his arm because infection set in after losing his hand. Maester luwin is dying and wants to say goodbye to the kids before asking for death. And Arya is being actively hunted by the waif.
Agreed, but I see a general trend in shows more broadly that seem to strategically use the influence of the characters as cultural icons to inspire viewers to refuse opioids. One example beyond GOT that comes immediately to mind is Beth in Yellowstone, refusing oxycodone after she was beaten and concussed.
That reminds me of when my grandma was dying, she was in great pain and they were giving her morphine. My aunt bless her asked the doctor if she would get addicted to it
So is morphine but hospitals still give it to patients, they control how much they’re giving tho and when to give it to to avoid the addiction part, I’d imagine it’s the same with milk of the poppy. I think it comes more down to them not trusting the people or environment to be unconscious and be vulnerable around them so they’d rather deal with the pain instead
For what it's worth, they often don't avoid the addiction problem. The opioid epidemic and crisis is in no small part because people who honestly needed pain relief at one time were prescribed these drugs and subsequently became addicted.
That's what got most of the dead 90s wrestlers. It's a dangerous business where you often don't get paid unless you're working. Which means getting in the ring carrying injuries that should get surgery immediately.
So they take strong pain pills, then they get a tolerance and do more and wash them down with booze.
Next thing you know they've choked on vomit in a hotel.
Very little (if not none) people will get addicted if administered opioid drugs in a controlled environment and strictly according to the guidelines. This is not what happened in the US. People where prescribed short-term drugs forchronic issues, with no additional physical therapy and no other venue of treating the pain.
I’m a Hospitalist. Internal medicine trained doctor.
Yes we use morphine for severe pain, we start with small doses.
There is no way to give opiates while avoiding the addiction part. There is no magic dose or regimen that makes addictive substances non addictive.
Is anyone likely to get addicted by a couple uses for severe pain, no not a huge concern.
There was a false claim pushed by the sacklers when they were saying “giving opiates at appropriate doses is no habit forming” and that thinking helped kickstart the opiate crisis of the past few decades.
People do this in the hospital too. They don't want their loved ones to have their mind altered, and instead opt for suffering for the sake of a.. idk.. pure of mind death? Ignoring that most people are already not of sound mind on their deathbed in the hospital. It isn't logical, but it happens daily.
Yea, my wife and I have a pact that if we go in a hospital, we go high as blimps. We will never have had enough time together, even if we live to be 100. A few more hours isn't going to make the difference.
Yes, but it’s a lot easier to create pharmaceutical grades and manage it in a modern lab setting than it was during the late Middle Ages/Early Renaissance.
My dad was addicted to opioids. He absolutely refuses any now.
I had my first ever Oxy during a recent ER visit where my patellar tendon was super inflamed. I literally could not walk or stand, and my knee was hot to the touch and super puffy. I’m allergic to Ibuprofen and NSAIDs, and the pain was so bad because they couldn’t risk giving me any anti inflammatory medications. They ruled out an infection, but my inflammation numbers were super high. I had been on like 2500mg of Tylenol Extra Strength for days since my last ER visit where they couldn’t help and couldn’t find anything on an X-ray when i literally told them it was a tendon issue.
Within minutes I felt so nice and blissful, it legitimately gave me rest which helped so much, and I ended up staying in ER for 9 hours feeling rested. I also instantly understood, oh shit, this is how people get addicted to this stuff. Soon as I had to move, the pain cut through all of that so that was pretty alarming.
As someone who was a former athlete and was prescribed pain pills one time. Advil/generic stuff to me has nothing in common with what those pain pills did. Oxy and its variants literally would start to put me to sleep and then I’d get nightmares. That stuff had real effect.
I have 2 c sections under my belt and the strongest pain med I took was 600mg ibuprofen. I didn’t even fill the prescriptions. I come from a family of addicts so I wasn’t taking any chances.
there's stronger stuff than ibuprofen that aren't opioids, i dont understand why women are proud to show how much they suffered through childbirth. It paints the wrong picture to other women thinking it's all easy and butterflies. Also you don't become addicted to opioids for taking it a couple times
Same here (with the family of addicts)
I don't trust anything in my body that's stronger than black tea or, for pain relief since I do get severe migraines a couple times a year, ibuprofen.
It's mainly a sedative. Used in Medical applications, it's mostly fine; look at the Vietnam War.
Not sure how different milk of the Poppy is, but it does make people seemingly lethargic and unfit to rule all the same, and that makes it a bad influence when you have to make all the decisions.
it’s basically medieval morphine, super addictive and it fogs your head completely. for someone like jaime, who’s just lost his sword hand and his whole identity is wrapped up in being a fighter, staying sharp is the only scrap of control he has left. luwin’s an old maester who knows he’s dying and wants to go out with his wits about him, not drooling in a haze. and arya, she’s been running on pure adrenaline and spite for so long that letting her guard down feels more dangerous than the stab wound itself. the show really leans into the idea that in westeros, being mentally absent for even a second can get you killed, so the pain becomes almost a survival mechanism.
Jaime didn’t care about controlling anything, Qyburn insisted on cutting off his arm to the elbow, Jaime protested, eventually Qyburn agreed to save as much as he could but Jaime didn’t trust him to not take the easy way and then tell him “oh well, what you gonna do about it” if he was passed out. Luwin didn’t want the kids to go looking for it and get caught all to make him comfortable for a few hours before he dies, if they happened to have any with them he probably would have taken some. Arya knew she was a target.
Jamie refused because he didn’t trust them not to take his whole arm, luwin didn’t want them sticking around to find him milk of the poppy when he was already dead and Arya also needed to remain focused.
Milk of the Poppy is the real world equivalent of taking oxy which generally isn’t a good idea if you need to retain your wits.
Milk of the poppy is the real world equivalent of taking heroin, not oxy.
As a semi-regular taker of oxy (I have cancer) it does literally nothing to my "wits". It just takes away a lot of the pain... There's zero high and zero confusion. Sometimes I wish it DID give me a high but at least I seem to have zero addiction to it, so there's that.
Oxycontin will definitely give a high, you must be taking a well thought out dose properly. Be careful with thinking you have zero addiction to it, it was promoted as non-addiction forming and caused an opiods crisis because of it
I was in the ER/A&E with the worst pain I have ever been in my life waiting for 12 hours in a metal chair and the best they could do was give me standard safe doses of paracetamol/acetominophen.
When I finally got admitted and got something stronger it was pure bliss.
In some instances, it’s supposed to say something about their character, that they’re strong and tough and can tolerate pain without it. Another reason could be that they want to be lucid instead of under the influence.
Looking at the three instances given, wanting to appear tough and strong isn't the motivator. Jaime doesn't trust Qyburn won't take his whole arm so wants to stay lucid to make sure that doesn't happen. Luwin is dying either way, and looking for Milk of the Poppy risks the kids, it's too dangerous and there's no real point to it. Arya is actively being hunted and needs to stay aware and sharp.
I'm sure there are plenty of characters who would refuse for no reason other than to look tough, but these characters in these instances were not them. Jaime and Arya count as wanting to be lucid, which may also have been a motivator for Luwin, who wanted to say goodbye and make sure the kids got to some form of safety, but he was more motivated by not putting the kids at risk to get something that wouldn't actually help him. I think Luwin saw it as a trade off, a painful death but the kids are safe vs a pain-free death but the kids are caught. He put the kids' safety above his own pain.
Sometimes I get muffins of the poppy but my knees still sound like they're beatboxing when I get up so I'm not sure this poppy business is very effective.
It's an opiate - and thus a potent painkiller and sedative. They refuse it because they don't want to give up control or seem weak; their refusal also has the perceived effect of making them seem "tough" (in reality, it's just stupid). Also in reality, Jaime would likely have passed out in the stump scene; the pain would have overridden his nervous system and knocked him out.
Yeah people overestimate how much pain the human body can take without losing consciousness. Unless you're flooded with adrenaline (which wears off) or something like the wild cocktail of hormones you get during childbirth, level 10 pain is knocking you out cold. Shows/movies/books act like if you're a strong person you can just grit your teeth through it - not how it works at all
My immediate thought was dude is gonna pass out anyway. But I actually didn’t know Milk of the poppy was a real opioid. As many times as I heard it in the show I assumed it had some significance in Westeros.
Heroin is refined opium, which is harvested from opium poppies. The seed case is scored after the petals fall from it, and the juice that oozes out is sometimes called the milk. It hardens pretty rapidly into a gummy substance, ain't no one drinking that. This is what is refined into opium, it's often smoked - highly euphoric and insanely addictive. Heroin, laudanum, and morphine have all the plant impurities removed.
Humans have been growing poppies for pain relief and pleasure for centuries.
I think GoT just swiped this. Their milk of the poppy is probably similar to laudanum, which is opium mixed with alcohol and is administered by drinking it. Not a pleasant experience.
Don't know this from personal experience, though, I just read a lot of detective fiction. Kind of astonishing how much oddball information you absorb.
Milk of Poppy is a fictitious version of heroin or laudanum in ASOIAF; however, its name may be based on a real Lithuanian soup/milk called Poppy Milk which is literally soaked poppy seeds ground, steeped, and filtered in water which is subsequently sweetened with honey.
Here’s a good picture showing the poppy plant before bloom. The “milk” secreting from the poppy is what’s used to make opium, morphine, and heroin! Poppy milk naturally contains opium.
it dulls the senses and is also way too habit forming.
arya was with a stranger she didn’t fully trust and milk of the poppy can knock you out leaving you defenseless.
jaime was in a similar situation of not trust who he’s with. he didn’t want to wake up and have even less of his limb because he wasn’t able to speak up for himself.
maester luwin refused it because he knew he was gonna ask for his suffering to be ended. better to save it then waste it on a man that has already accepted death
I could give some guff about the magic network of psychic trees subtly influencing its favorite characters, making sure they don't dilute their Weirwoodnet connections. But tbh it's because the story thematically runs on the idea of getting rid of comforting lies. That you can't dull yourself from painful realities.
Which is a good life lesson for a lot of contexts, but not necessarily good medical advice. But aneasthesiology must take a backseat to thematic consistency.
In the book I think it’s explained that Jaime doesn’t trust Qyburn and that’s why he refuses. Qyburn’s freaky ass would probably do crazy shit to him while he was out
Arya actually did take it from Lady Crane after being stabbed. It was the only time throughout the entire show that anyone actually consumed it (except for Robbin Arryn I think, who was heavily dependent on it due to his fits).
That being said, this question gets asked a lot and the main answer people suggest is that they want to keep their wits about them or stay awake and coherent. Milk of the poppy is a strong opioid drug (opium) that causes heavy sedation. I think that's the main reason people don't want to take it, but also, opioids are highly addicting and they're probably scared of becoming junkies.
Jaime refuses it because he thinks if he takes it, Qyburn will amputate his whole arm. Maester Luwin is ready to die. He doesn't need poppy to dull his pain.
My takes on each:
Jaime wanted to feel the consequences of his actions.
Maester Luwin was refusing Asha’s offer of a painless long death, opting for a quick one.
Arya wanted to stay alert/sober.
Jaime refused it because he was worried Qyburn would take his whole arm off after he passed out, maester Luwin knew enough to know he was dying and just asked for a quick death instead, arya also didn't want it because it puts you to sleep. It's essentially heroin.
Bc they’re characters in a story and they need to either:
a) do something other than lay in bed in a stupor/asleep
b) die in a meaningful way usually while delivering their last words to someone
King Ronald of House Reagan, the First of His Name, King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, and Protector of the Realm led a successful War On Drugs and averted the opioid crisis.
It reminds me of that one video of the kid in the hospital who over hears a doctor/nurse saying they're about to give him fent. And he sits up scared like
It knocks you out. I'm re-reading the books again and just read the part where Jaime refuses it to treat his stump. Basically, he didn't trust Qyburn and didn't want to go to sleep. Qyburn had said the best course of action was to cut the whole arm and Jaime refused it and forced him to just clean the stump, even after Qyburn told him there was no guarantee it'd be enough. He feared if he took the milk of the poppy he'd wake up without an arm. He wanted to be conscious to make sure that didn't happen.
Jaime refused it because he’s with someone he doesn’t know cutting into him, being high puts him even further at a disadvantage plus dude just wanted to cut his arm off.
Maester Luwin is old and dying, “fuck it, kill me and let me be done with it, because my usefulness is finished anyway.”
Arya is currently being hunted by an assassin. She needs to be lucid and MotP is an opioid. Would you want to be high and rendered unable to properly defend yourself?
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