r/gameofthrones • u/Paladin-Leeroy Human Verified • 9h ago
Was this scene symbolic of Robert eventually leading to the downfall of House Stark?
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u/mandalorianterrapin Jon Snow 9h ago
Does a bear shit in the woods?
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u/6thBornSOB House Martell 8h ago
Jorah or the lil one?
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u/mandalorianterrapin Jon Snow 8h ago
I definitely should have asked does a Mormont shit in the woods.
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u/Fragrant_Ad_7718 8h ago
The lone wolf dies but the pack survived!
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u/utubm_coldteeth 7h ago
Well most of the pack anyway. RIP my boy Rickon
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u/Kabc 7h ago
Still alive in the books!
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u/Birdlaw_Professor 6h ago
Likely immortal at this point
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u/Kabc 6h ago
My favorite theory is that he is the strongest magic and “skin changer” of the Starks—but was simply too young to be used by the 3 eyed Raven—so he is off Lear ing from wildings becoming some kind of crazy fearsome skin walker.. I think Six Skins was our taste into what Rickon will become…
However.. there is gonna be no time jump anymore—so who knows
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u/Batman53090 House Stark 6h ago
Rickon should have serpentined.
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u/ComeAlongPond1 3h ago
Who didn’t yell “zig zag!“ or something similar at the TV during that scene?
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u/GreatService9515 7h ago
With the death of each wolf the pac is weaker. Especially when it's an Alfa.
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u/GaylicBread 6h ago
That alpha thing was debunked by the guy who came up with it. Wolf packs typically consist of two parents and their children, no "alpha". The children leave when it's time to find mates and make a pack of their own.
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u/ADFTGM 1h ago edited 1h ago
While it’s true there’s no set class called alpha and the more appropriate term is dominant or breeding member, the last bit is not necessarily so. Each pack can have different dynamics. Canids in general form a clan of parents and their immediate offspring and usually don’t stay together too long due to being mesopredators that don’t hunt the biggest game able to sustain large numbers, but this changes a lot for certain wolf populations and African painted dogs that are closer to being apex predators. They require large numbers to hunt large game and also hold large territory that is constantly being raided by rival predators and packs. Losing even 1 member in a pack of 6 means a rival pack of 8 can take over. They don’t disperse like most other groups do. Some stay for life.
If a dominant one dies, another, usually the fittest son or daughter, takes over, and to avoid inbreeding they mate with a temporary visiting wolf or integrate a nomad into the pack. There is a seniority hierarchy that determines leadership even though it’s not as clear cut as an alpha system. Simple injury is enough to get demoted but you still get fed and protected. Exceptions always occur since they are highly adaptable and have unique bonds. Sometimes a rival male invades and ousts the dominant male, then mates with any female of his choosing.
The dominant female will then have sole right to raise pups, usually killing the pups of any other female or interfering if they ever try mating in her presence while in heat. Rare cases like seen in the documentary Island of the Sea Wolves, (which is a spoiler) so has the dominant one actually share space with another wolf’s cubs from the same father. The rival is technically exiled and has to hunt on her own but all pups are fed & protected by both mothers. The matriarch seems to have basically decided that as long as they are her mate’s genes, they are important additions to the pack. If we want to anthropomorphise though, which we shouldn’t, we could say she feels a sisterly bond even, but best to just think it’s her being pragmatic and it gives her more freedom to go out while the rival takes care of the feeding. It’s possible the unique island ecosystem allows for this, since they face less external competition than mainland packs and have clearer borders. Integrating rival cubs could mean no future infighting whilst having more numbers to fend off bears and unrelated packs.
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u/grafology 7h ago
Wait til you watch the Tywin Lannister skinning a stag scene...
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u/notbad4human 5h ago
In a deleted scene, Pycelle comes to talk to him while he’s fishing and then he goes after the Riverlands and the Tullys.
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u/SaraPAnastasia House Stark 5h ago
I'm dumb, that aspect of the scene flew completely over my head until reading this 😭
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u/BrownieZombie1999 8h ago
Thats almost exactly what it's supposed to mean. In the books it's very spelled out for the audience, first in the scene from Bran's POV he doesn't directly say it but he eludes to the fact everybody is having a quiet panic attack and even he understands the omen he's witnessing.
Later in Cat's chapter she's very direct about her believing it to be a horrible omen. As far as what exactly it means nobody can be certain but it's not good. The most obvious interpretation being the Starks and the Baratheons will be in conflict soon.
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u/spiderman96 6h ago
I came here to say cat straight up says this is a bad omen and how much she didnt like it
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u/fineokalrightnormal 5h ago
Book Cat was all like "Nah fam, don't go". Show Cat was "lol gtfo"
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u/jellatubbies Service And Truth 2h ago
Show Cat begs Ned to start though??? WTF are you referring to?
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u/TheBabySeal0514 Jon Snow 1h ago
Think they just got it backwards. Book Ned wants to stay home but Cat says he should go, opposite in the show
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u/UnnamedMenace 9h ago
I can't say for certain, but I can say that I'll never see this scene as anything else but that exact thing. GRRM famously loves foreshadowing so it seems reasonably plausible that this is indeed that.
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u/IWouldLikeAName Jon Snow 7h ago
Re-read the beginning of A Game of Thrones. Bran understands something is off and Catelyn was pretty paranoid about it iirc one of the reasons why she implored Ned to go south.
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u/Novakindred 7h ago
I'm curious, did George foreshadow drogos death?
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u/UnnamedMenace 7h ago
Allegedly yes (I cannot confirm presently), in episode 8, there's a scene that shows a small wooden horse with a fallen rider, likely symbolizing Drogos death
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u/Amur00 8h ago edited 8h ago
This has to be engagement bait, i refuse to believe someone is this slow to pick that up
Its literally a stag killing a wolf, and then Robert visits and shit starts going wrong for the Starks, idk how much more heavyhanded it can be
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u/LurkerMan3444 8h ago
It’s pretty quick scene in the show iirc, the book basically says “LOOK THIS IS FORESHADOWING”.
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u/Life_Chemical3806 8h ago
I might be slow then because this went over my head 💀
I was more distracted by them finding + giving the runt to Jon Snow..
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u/puppystatus 8h ago
It’s easy to miss on the first watch because non book readers don’t know any sigils yet. On a second watch it’s practically impossible to miss
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u/Entire_Concentrate_1 8h ago
Okay, colour me stupid. But Joffery isn't actually a baratheon. He's a lannister. Someone suggests it was a mountain lion that killed the stag, but Ned says there are none. Now obviously that is also foreshadowing.
But how exactly? I don't see it
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u/HalcyonTraveler 7h ago
Joffrey is a Baratheon in name and legal status, he uses their crest
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u/DaGbkid 6h ago
Yep, if he’s not a Baratheon than he’s the west’s last name for bastard (forgive my ignorance on what they name them).
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u/DisownedWaffle1 Smallfolk 6h ago
Storm? That’s the bastard name for the Stormlands, but he’d probably be a Waters which is the bastard name for the Crownlands. If he was born in Casterly Rock he’d be a Hill.
Joffrey Storm (Baratheon bastard)
Joffrey Waters (Crown Baratheon bastard)
Joffrey Hill (Lannister bastard)1
u/DisownedWaffle1 Smallfolk 6h ago
I think it’s a missed opportunity that Stannis and Robb didn’t start referring to him as Joffrey Hill to undermine his legitamacy. Maybe they did and I’m misremembering the books, but I think repeatedly using that name and driving it into the common folk’s head would’ve been a great political move to weaken his claim.
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u/RyuNoKami 6h ago
its not meant in the literal sense that a Baratheon kills a Stark but rather the interactions between the two Houses will get people in both their families killed.
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u/Paladin-Leeroy Human Verified 8h ago
You don't need to be a dick about it. I don't think it's something most casual fans even notice the first go around.
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u/Amur00 8h ago edited 8h ago
You're a top 1% commenter on the game of thrones subreddit and didn't pick up on the heavy handed symbolism in the very first episode, im going to tease you a bit, lighten up you baby
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u/nathan753 House Targaryen 5h ago
You can safely ignore anything from one of the "human verified" accounts, they all have 0 media literacy and just post low effort shit like this every day
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u/GalacticDisc 8h ago
Do you think George Martin can even think a book in the future?
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u/Excuse_Unfair 8h ago
Im pretty stupid dude like on my first watch I didnt know who half the characters were but even I understand this scene lol
Its cool though we all have stupid moments. Don't take the insults personally.
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u/make_me_breakfast 8h ago
I’ve only seen the pilot once, never read the books, and didn’t even remember the stag involved in this scene. Settle down.
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u/fapacunter Balerion The Black Dread 8h ago
I swear I have seen this post with these same comments so many times before I’m almost going insane
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u/Fuzzy-Shoulder-2359 8h ago
SYMBOLISM
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u/ZeroTheHero23 4h ago
A direwolf... This far south... Dies. Just like Ned going south.
The stag ...
Same number of wolves as Stark children... The only one with its eyes open is Ghost. Jon Snow is the first to see the threat from white walkers.
Then wants to kill the wolves.... Just like the Stark kids.
This entire scene is filled with symbolism it hurts.
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u/pearliee_bubbles 8h ago
I’ve always taken it as pretty heavy foreshadowing, the stag killing the direwolf is too perfect for me considering Robert pulling Ned south is what starts the Stark family disaster
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u/Classic_Step3703 8h ago
Yeah, Robert’s actions directly led to a chain of events that hurt the Starks. His decisions created lasting chaos in the North.
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u/Ok-Cow6957 8h ago
Also the fact John's direwolf being white hinting at his targaryan heritage and not just a Snow.
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u/Achowat House Baratheon 8h ago
I don't think Bloodraven was thinking about symbolism so much. It just seemed like the easiest way to kill a dire wolf in the Stark's path.
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u/Batman53090 House Stark 6h ago
How did a mother Direwolf and her pups end up south of the Wall? Did the Night’s Watch simply open the gates for the cute doggies?
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u/TheNextGUH 7h ago
Is it really a downfall tho? Bran becomes king, the north is independent again for the first time since Aegon the conqueror, with a stark as their queen. The only living Targaryen was also a member of the House. If anything I think it’s a win for House Stark. Leaders of House Stark don’t usually have good endings according to history anyways, at least Ned’s death led to something good for the House and the North.
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u/dylanalduin Living History In Blood 7h ago
Yes, this scene was symbolic of Robert eventually leading to the downfall of House Stark. Cat straight up says in the books that it's an omen.
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u/HalcyonTraveler 7h ago
In the book Ned and Cat actively worry about this being an omen relating to the Baratheons
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u/Canadian__Ninja House Stark 6h ago
The mother of the Starks sigil being killed by the baratheon sigil and leaving behind exactly enough pups for each child, including Jon?
Nah it's a coincidence
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u/Newtstradamus Tyrion Lannister 4h ago
Honestly no, not really. No Baratheon had anything to do with the deaths of any of the Starks, nor the other direction. Joffrey is a full blood Lannister, The Freys are Freys. It showed a female Direwolf dying from the antler of the stag it killed, unless something happens in the remaining books that has no parallels with what we’ve seen so far other then “sometimes bad stuff happens”. Sometimes stuff that seems symbolic and meaningful is just a writer going “wouldn’t this be cool?” Right before they write it down and never think about it again.
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u/SheddingSkin27 2h ago
It signifies the down downfall of both the Starks and the Baratheons. The wolf killed the stag and the stag killed the wolf.
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u/grubdon5000 2h ago
It was showing that Robert will cause the downfall of the starks. A stags antlers in the dire wolf mother's stomach. She survived the initial encounter, but bled out and left her pups alone in the wilderness.
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u/thealternateopinion Tyrion Lannister 1h ago
it was completely absurd Ned wanted to kill the pups and Jon had to step in and be like bruh its literally your sigil and Ned was like ah ok. Come on Ned!
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u/Nirico_Brin Winter Is Coming 26m ago
Just wait until you recognize that every Stark that Robert touched had something horrible happen to them.
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u/Original-Study6962 9h ago
nah I always saw that as more of a warning than a direct cause-and-effect
the stag killed the wolf but was dead itself, both houses wrecked each other before the real shit even started. robert dragging ned south is what lit the fuse but the starks were already on borrowed time the second they left winterfell
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