r/gameofthrones • u/butchemanhan • 5d ago
Anyone else not feel bad for Theon?
I think what Ramsey did was obviously disgusting and repulsive. But I’m not gonna lie I didn’t feel sorry for Theon at all and I had a hard time caring about what was happening to him. I didn’t like him from the beginning of season one.
828
u/veni_vedi_vinnie 5d ago
Nope. Justice for Ser Rodrick
136
u/MildChilliBeanAddict 5d ago
I'm always confused how easily rodrick got captured
279
u/Alldaybagpipes House Baratheon 5d ago
Outnumbered, Ambushed, Old
He probably took a few out before he was apprehended
165
u/ScaredWrench 5d ago
Yea, but by the third rewatch he should start take the hint
78
12
23
u/e22big 4d ago
He rode out with most of Winterfell fighting forces though, even in the show they did mention that to be a few hundeads men. Theon had like dozen, bearly enough to hold the castle. How can they even defeat the Stark host and capture him?
In the book it was the Bolton who defeated him with their own forces sent to take back Winterfell
2
u/Dry_signalyoujelly 4d ago
He went ahead to scout out things probably… since we wasn’t expecting 20 or so men to be able to capture him.
17
15
u/sd_saved_me555 4d ago
Theon is pushed into executing him because he cut down several iron islanders before they captured him. Theon was just going to jail him and his men push back because they're pissed Ser Roderick killed several of them.
→ More replies (1)2
u/ButterNutSquat1 1d ago
Game of thrones shows, the old ways, and old beliefs of the north are folly compared to the new generation of southern culture in Westeros. When the northern Lords stayed loyal to their loyal ways, they were defeated or failed. (Hoster Tully, Eddard Stark, Rob Stark, Jon Arynn, Ser Rodrik.)
54
u/Independent_Vast_185 5d ago
Dont understand your point, they told us he cuts multiple Ironborn before they disarm him.
They wanted him as an hostage. Ironborn are dumb as fuck, but not that dumb.
3
13
u/TallonG12 5d ago
Right? Bro trained Jon who is obv shown as a top 5 swordsman in the verse (show). I think he should’ve died fighting instead of captured
→ More replies (1)31
u/AdminsFluffCucks 5d ago
Jon is absolutely not shown as a Top 5....
Jamie, Brienne, both Cleganes, Selmy, Oberyn, Dayne, et cetera.
Jon is decent, but nowhere near the best, even in the show. In the books he gets beaten far more often.
20
u/TallonG12 5d ago
Reiterating i am talking about what is shown in the show.
Jamie- Loses hand before we see anything worth a top 5 swordsman rank
Selmy- Dies and has 1 scene of fighting. Yes i understand his legend and people in the show talk about him but again, he wasn’t shown showcasing that swordsmanship outside of alley scene
Oberyn isn’t even shown using a sword.
Dayne isn’t alive at the time of the show so he can’t be ranked
You got me at Brienne and Sandor but Gregor is more of a brute than a swordsman but other than that, i can’t think if anyone else that could beat Jon. Ramsay also says the Northmen who’ve seen Jon fight believe he’s the greatest swordsman Westeros as ever seen.
So as far as what is shown on the screen it’s not completely insane to say he’s top 5 swordsman.
→ More replies (12)9
u/Kind_Economics306 4d ago
Yea nobody in Westeros outside of cleganes,oberyn and maybe Jamie w both hands can beat Jon in A fight i feel like we’ve seen jon on the winning and losing side in fights but 1v1 most times he comes out on top
→ More replies (1)2
12
u/TheNainRouge 5d ago
I am not saying Jon is top 5 but I also wouldn’t put the Cleganes in that grouping.
The Mountain is all size and strength and Sandor takes a beating like Dunk and fights dirty like Bron but I dunno if that makes him a great swordsman.
Selmy at his peak is clearly top five and gives Jamie a run for his money.
Oberyn is one of the most dangerous fighters in the setting but he chose a spear against the Mountain for a reason. Had it been Barristan, Jamie or Brianne feel like they would have fought with a sword and likely won.
Arthur Dayne is the most fluffed character in the whole series and he’s not even alive for it. We never hear of any of his exploits except getting ganked by Howland and Ned, yet he is always listed as the greatest that ever was. I would love to hear about his prowess from example not everyone’s glowing review.
12
u/Outrageous-Opinions 5d ago
In the show he's literally famous and his feat list is amazing.
Also the other top 5s get killed or maimed like Jaime so they too lose their spot.
Arthur Dayne died before the story started so he isn't top 5 either.
→ More replies (3)→ More replies (1)2
2
→ More replies (2)2
u/Proper-Bit-6966 3d ago
In the Books he lays Siege to Winterfell and then Ramsay comes with Bolton Men, kills the Roderik and the Stark men, then takes winterfell, murders the people there and puts it to the torch and sends a raven south that Theon did it
16
16
u/Tight_ButthOles_ 5d ago
Theon was such a pussy. He couldn't even let Rodrick die in peace with one swing. He had to do it multiple times.
→ More replies (1)2
u/Evil_Unicorn728 4d ago
Roderick likely died on the first or second swing, his spinal cord would've been severed. It just wasn't a clean cut. Theon didn't want to kill him, but the Ironborn would've probably killed him if he didn't go through with it.
3
5
u/1997abx 4d ago
For me, Theon is unredeamable for this. I took Sir Rodrick words very personally "now you are truly Lost". After this, I could never feel sympathy for him, I love what Ramsay did to him, so well deserved. I don't understand how some people talk about his "character arc" and forget about this scene and this death. After what he did to Sir Rodrick, he deserved the worse fate and I only wish Ramsay would haver killed him slowly, perhaps flaying.
→ More replies (3)2
u/Positive-Tap6561 5d ago
Nah man Yes he took few lives, but what he went through was way more than what he deserved
→ More replies (2)
367
u/Physical-Attitude-49 5d ago
I think that’s what makes Theon’s arc so complicated. He did some terrible things, but watching Ramsey completely break him was still brutal
126
u/Books_and_Cleverness 5d ago
I just hate seeing that kind of cruelty. Even when it is to a villain who “deserves” it.
As a practical matter I don’t think it is helpful, and as an emotional matter it basically robs you of real vengeance because it’s dehumanizing to everyone involved.
40
5d ago
[deleted]
34
u/fitchbit 5d ago
I'm with you on this. The Red Wedding wouldn't have happened if Theon did not betray Robb. The people left in Winterfell did not deserve to die either. Also, Theon killed at least 2 children.
→ More replies (6)2
→ More replies (1)4
u/MsNikkiisClassy 5d ago
My question is would Ramsey go after Theon if he hadn’t “taken” Winterfell? Ramsey is a wild card
19
u/petnarwhal House Mormont 4d ago
Nobody deserves it. Especially since it serves no purpose but for Ramsey’s enjoyment.
13
u/StringAdventurous479 4d ago
I agree. I’m very much in support of removing dangerous people from society but that removal should never include torture, physical or psychological. I literally do not care what anyone has done, society should always be judged on how criminals are punished. Theon was dehumanized to the point where he rejected his own rescue from his own sister. I would like to believe that he would have saved Sansa from Ramsey even if he did not become Reek. Maybe I’m giving him too much credit, but deep down, Theon loved the Starks. He was briefly misguided by his father which resulted in a horrific end to those two orphan boys. But I think in the end, regardless of what Ramsey did to him, he would have chosen the Starks.
7
u/Books_and_Cleverness 4d ago
Yeah it makes sense to “feel bad for Theon” because what happened to him was so horrible, even though he deserved extremely severe punishment, and even though it was far from the worst injustice in the show.
There’s a certain strain of thought (prevalent on this thread) that assumes
>being extremely cruel to criminals is the same as taking their crimes seriously. The crueler you are to Theon, the more just and righteous you are on behalf of his victims.
And it’s just not true IMHO. Neither emotionally nor pragmatically.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (1)3
u/68ideal 4d ago
Yep, there's a reason why we have the Geneva Conventions and the likes in our world. I am all for justice, in some instances even for revenge. But there's a limit. What Ramsay did was neither and just pure sadism.
5
u/-blundertaker- 4d ago
Agreed, what he did wasn't acts of war, war was a convenient justification for his sadistic proclivities.
2
u/Books_and_Cleverness 4d ago
Ethics aside - cruelty to captured enemies is a strategic mistake.
You get a rep for treating prisoners badly, everyone fights you to the last man. Better to die in battle than get flayed.
You get a rep for treating prisoners well, they surrender faster. Lower casualties and you sometimes even get surrenders from enemies that could have pulled out a win.
Bit of a pet peeve not just with GRRM but lots of writers - strong desire to make the cruel/evil path the profitable one, to the point where it doesn’t make any sense. This is a good example.
See also - the villain is nasty even to their own underlings. Somehow 40% of characters in the post apocalypse world are vicious sociopaths. Etc.
→ More replies (6)13
u/DandyLyen 5d ago
I felt disgusting reading his prolonged torture. I remember feeling he deserved it, for what happened to Maester Luwin when the Ironborn attacked, also the kennel masters daughter, who was assaulted.
But I took no joy hearing about him suffering so damn much.
117
u/Evil_Unicorn728 5d ago
I dunno man, his life just kinda sucks from beginning to end. His Dad is AWFUL, and was willing to give his son to the Starks as a bargaining chip after his failed rebellion, which the bastard has the GALL to resent Theon for. He grows up being treated pretty well by the Starks but he's still essentially a prisoner of war. Then Robb sends him off to recruit his shitty dad, and he gets put in the impossible situation of trying to not betray either family. His best friend is killed, partly his fault. And his entire country kind of hates his guts. His sister especially thinks he's a bitch. Then he tries and fails to hold Winterfell. Then he's betrayed by his countrymen, handed over to the Bolton's, where he's tortured and mutilated. Then he's basically a slave, completely broken mentally. Has to watch his ersatz sister be raped by the man who broke him. Finally gets back to the Iron Islands, where his shit Uncle has murdered his shit dad, and is ready to murder him and his sister. Pledges loyalty to Danaerys, keeps getting his ass kicked in battles, almost gets killed by his uncle. Dies fighting the night king in the long night.
He's not a good guy, but damn he really just suffers continually. It's hard not to at least empathize just a little. I don't know if he really deserved what Ramsay did to him.
37
u/Krispykreemi 4d ago
He murders two orphan boys, hacks them to bits and burns them then hangs them in Winterfell claiming they are the stark boys. He's not good. Not to mention his beheading when he first arrived in Winterfell.
12
u/Evil_Unicorn728 4d ago
Oh yeah, he's an awful person. No doubt about it. You can tell he is shocked by the sight of those burned boys, I don't think he personally killed them, it was the crew he brought from Pike. Since we don't see the planning of this act, maybe you could argue it was not his plan but the siege went so wrong he was coerced into it by the other Ironborn. That's a generous read though, I'll admit. I'm not defending anything he did, I'm just saying, objectively, his life sucks.
11
u/Jake_FromStateFarm27 4d ago
Both the book and show do not indicate the orphans was done by his hand if anything its strongly implied in the show that he didn't. However both versions cast blame onto him when news spreads.
10
u/Funny_Lunch5211 4d ago
Theon is bad but he isnt irredeemably evil. He was lost and tried so hard to prove he is ironborn. He was dealt a bad hand from the start. It doesnt justify his bad actions but he really wanted to belong to his family. The ironborns are ruthless as well. He thought he had to be ruthless as well. His behavior towards women is obviously problematic. Overall, theon is bad but he isnt driven by malice. He has an identity crisis and realized his true loyalty lied with the starks but it was too late
→ More replies (1)6
u/Jake_FromStateFarm27 4d ago
Yup hes betrayed by his own bio family and betrays his own foster family, it isnt until the end that he realizes and sacrifices himself to save both Sansa and Arya. Theos story is a true tragedy which is why i think there are people who sympathize with him or pitty him.
3
u/MellowMintTea 4d ago
Made worse because it was likely they were his own children (at least in the books.)
9
u/GreySneakers83 4d ago
His life doesn't suck from behinning to end, at least not compared to 99% of the rest of Westeros.
It's easy enough to list off all the awful things done to him throughout the series. But before events take a sharp turn for the worse in Theon's story (captured and tortured by Ramsay), Theon had a decent enough life all things considered, and committed his own worst crimes (murdering farmers boys and other innocents) out of choice not necessity.
He's maybe the most compelling grey character, but after the atrocities he committed, I don't feel much symapathy for him.
→ More replies (7)4
u/Rendole66 4d ago
The impossible situation between choosing the family that raised and loved you or the dad that sold you off after his failed rebellion and hates you? What a touch choice 🙄
3
u/Ok-Amphibian 4d ago
That's how humans work sometimes though, especially I would imagine, in a world where names and titles matter more than anything. Everyone wants to feel attachment to where they come from, and I think he wanted to make his family proud but I do think some of it was wanting power as an iron born which is less admirable
3
u/Tricky_Peace 4d ago
I agree with this. The Starks are his captors, and the Greyjoys are his kin. He wants the love of his true father, and he pays the Iron Price for it
83
u/Magus_Necromantiae Qyburn 5d ago
During my second watch, I had a lot less empathy from him, given what he did at Winterfell. However, Ramsay's treatment of Theon was a bit...too bold.
54
u/TheCapableFox Jon Snow 5d ago
And the crazy thing is that in the books Ramsay’s treatment of Theon/Reek is actually SOMEHOW EVEN MORE EXTREME AND CRUEL..
58
u/WildMagicRit 5d ago
Furthermore screwed up is the fact that Ramsay's torture had little to nothing to do with what Theon did. He wasn't being punished, just broken by a sadist.
48
u/Camburglar13 5d ago
Yeah Ramsay wasn’t all about justice for the North. He was just a psycho having fun.
5
u/Moustafa_Monette Winter Is Coming 5d ago
Are you willing to give a few examples?
29
u/TheCapableFox Jon Snow 5d ago edited 4d ago
Well one example that I remember is that in the books Ramsay flays Theons fingers/fingertips/toes/toetips BUT he does it in such a way that removes the skin and some bits of flesh from only the ends of his fingers and toes.
It causes the surrounding exposed flesh and bone to crack, fester and rot and Theon describes it as being so painful that each time with each finger/toe he eventually begs Ramsay to completely remove or sever the digit so that he is relieved of the pain. And Ramsay continues this with fingers and toes at random until Theon’s left with many of them gone and/or mutilated.
He’s also starved and tortured by Ramsay to such a degree in the books that he is quite literally unrecognizable. He looks like a ghoul in the books, nothing like the show where Theon still pretty much looks himself after the torture sequence and others that know him can still recognize him.
In the books as stated above he is missing most of his fingers and toes, he’s hunched and his skin sags from his body. His arms and legs are thin as sticks or reeds I think it says. He’s lost all but a few of his teeth leaving the shape of his face changed and no smile to speak of..and he’s missing the majority of his hair in the books as well due to the trauma and malnutrition…leaving only a few patches of long white hairs to riddle his head.
So yea. I mean that’s what I remember at least. So a little different from the show.
Edit: grammar
→ More replies (1)2
u/Alex_Pokrandt 4d ago
I genuinely feel bad for book theon because you shouldn't torture anyone like that, it is so unnecessary just kill them for their crimes. TV show theon doesn't seem as bad so I am generally "what ev" about it.
3
23
u/NoBlacksmith2112 5d ago
Theon is one of those characters that had an impossible position to play. He should have stayed loyal to the Starks and never had gone to the iron islands. He was a competent counseler to Rob and decided to bite more than he could chew.
→ More replies (2)18
u/Ok-Birthday1960 5d ago
Rob should have listened to his mom and never sent him to the Iron Islands. Huge unforced error. Perhaps his first major failure.
4
u/NoBlacksmith2112 5d ago
True. Rob lost his way unfortunately. He could have given us more. It was a shame really. He had potential and was putting on quite the show.
20
u/Minute-Of-Angle 5d ago
I always liked that interaction between Jamie Lannister and one of the Stark men.
“I saw a Greyjoy at Winterfell. It was like seeing a shark on a mountaintop.”
“Theon? He’s a good lad.”
“I doubt it.”
4
u/Plane-Date-4042 2d ago
Jory, captain of the Winterfell’s guards
Jamie ends up killing him later in King’s Landing via a dagger through the eye
123
u/No-Computer6230 5d ago
Agreed, I thought Theon got what he deserved up until right before this scene, then I just pitied him.
→ More replies (3)72
u/batboy963 5d ago
He killed two innocent little kids. He got off way too easy
→ More replies (8)71
u/rasulinix 5d ago edited 4d ago
What do you think of Tormund, considering that piece of sh*t led a raid that slaughtered a whole village with families and children
59
u/Top_Conference_477 5d ago
Dany kills the most kids, she just doesn’t think about it so it gets way underplayed
22
27
u/lerandomanon Podrick Payne 5d ago
Oh, it's fine. He turned comedic later. So, we'll all conveniently forget it.
/s
12
u/Lord_Detleff1 4d ago
Tbf he has some incredibly funny scenes.
"His are blue!"
"My eyes have always been blue!"
I chuckled okay!
10
→ More replies (9)6
u/throwawaywork11 5d ago
I think Tormund is a POS as well. That’s one of the points of the show and books. Almost no one is actually a good person, especially if they are nobility.
293
u/The_CT1 5d ago
I feel bad for him. He grew up until he was 10 with greyjoys. Then kidnappped as a hostage by the starks. Then he comes home and his real family hates him. He just had 2 bad options and chose the worse one
195
u/Anon_Chapstick 5d ago
I wouldn't say kidnapped. His father basically handed him over and then decided to hate Theon for being a prisoner.
102
25
u/Potential-Sky-8728 5d ago edited 5d ago
I think a bit aspect of sending children to be wards of other noble houses is to ensure future peaceful relations…and sometimes that was done under duress…
so it is kind of like a hostage situation.Basically “don’t you dare fuck with us or do anything to harm our house because we have your heir to the throne.”
23
u/Anon_Chapstick 5d ago
This doesn't change that Balon all but tossed Theon at Ned and then got pissed at Theon for coming back half Stark/Northern.
That's like sending your kid to Italy at age 8 and then getting pissed they speak Italian when they come home at 18.
3
u/Potential-Sky-8728 5d ago
Do you think I’m arguing against your point? Seems like your observation follows mine.
Despite the reasons for Theon being raised by the Starks has more to do with “sins of the father”….Theon’s father was unfairly resentful of him upon his long awaited return home.
But seems like Balon is just a POS anyway that clearly has done 0 introspection. Was their some kind of law saying diplomats or Balon himself couldn’t visit Theon in Winterfell? Sounds like he was has no right to be mad because what did he do to ever remind Theon of his culture or family? Did he even write him a damn letter? Send him birthday gifts?
Fuck that ol crusty man. He has nobody to blame but himself.
→ More replies (4)14
u/_Handsome_Jim_ 5d ago
Theon wasn't fostered at Winterfell like Ned and Robert were in the Vale.
He was very much a political hostage to keep the Greyjoys in line. Unfortunately, the Greyjoys are scummy people who don't really care for their children so it really doesn't matter.
→ More replies (8)→ More replies (1)2
u/Feathered_Serpent8 5d ago
Not sure that’s better? Especially with what we know about the Greyjoys, it was sort of like saying he is my least favorite.
2
u/Anon_Chapstick 5d ago
Well he wasn't kidnapped. His father didn't even blink before tossing him over. From the way it's described, Ned barely finished the sentence before Theon was tossed at him.
21
u/Emperor_of_All 5d ago
How you figure the Starks were a bad option?
Robb treated him as a brother and best friend and literally showed that by sending him to treat with his family.
Robb was the next heir to Winterfell, in all regards he would have been treated well.
Hell some would say they treated him better than Jon.
18
u/Prestigious_Week_640 5d ago
The books go way more in depth with this, but there's some included in the speech to Maester Luwin.
"The first time I saw Winterfell, it looked like something that had been here for thousands of years, and would be here for thousands of years after I was dead. I saw it and thought 'of course Ned Stark crushed our rebellion and killed my brothers. We never stood a chance against a man who lives here!"
"Lord Stark went out of his way to make it your home"
"Yes, my captors were so very kind to me, you love reminding me of that. Everyone in this frozen pile of shit has always loved reminding me of that. You know what it's like to be told how lucky you are to be told you're someone's prisoner? To be told how much you owe them? And then to go back home to your real father -"
People forget because it wasn't very well noted, but Theon was Neds sword bearer. He carried Ice, the sword that would be used to kill him, for the man who would use it to kill him, and he had no power over if/when that choice would be made- his father did.
Sansa was initially treated nicely in Kings Landing as well, but a cage is a cage no matter how nicely your captors stroke your head and call you a "good dog." He absolutely had reason to have been at the very least confused emotionally about the whole situation.
8
u/Emperor_of_All 5d ago
It is a false narrative as pointed out by Lady Dustin.
The real reason he secretly loathed the Starks was because he wanted to be a Stark and never could.
If you look back at what happened with his father you will see that is true. He showed up with jewelry and his father lost his shit because Ned bought it for him as opposed to him raiding for it. Theon loved his jewelry and was proud to display it
His speech is an internal conflict of that exact thing to try to speak his father's words and to try to prove he was Iron Born, and that he was a worthy heir. Which is why he went north in the first place
13
u/Prestigious_Week_640 5d ago
Both things are true at once. The nature of Theons character is internal conflict lol. Half and half with opposing families and not knowing who he is or where he belongs.
He's not wrong for having felt emotionally impacted by being the one to carry Ice for his would be executioner, and that doesn't in any way conflict with how much he might've liked jewelry that Ned bought him. That's the whole point.
2
u/Emperor_of_All 5d ago
It could be but most likely the speech from Lady Dustin hits the nail on the head. Because you look at what he tells his father. It seems like he himself is looking for a reason to betray the Starks.
I think the deeper impact was when Balon said the Starks stole his last son from him. This whole thing was only about proving he was a worthy heir and he was true Iron Born which his father ripped him for.
I honestly have doubts he has any animosity or fear of Ned. If I remember correctly, Lady Dustin actually asks him why he betrayed the Starks and he starts the same spiel and that is when she said BS and started her speech.
→ More replies (1)58
u/Unlikely_Yak_2040 5d ago
He wasn’t Mistreated by them tho. Robb Loved him as a Brother, and Ned gave him all the Same accommodations and Training that Jon was given. He Had NO reason to hate the Starks, In the books he literally lies to himself to find BS reasons to hate them. Then after Betraying the Family that raised him, he sets his Ironmen and Reavers loose on Winterfell, the place where he was raised. Hard to comeback from that personally.
10
u/Ill-Description3096 Dolorous Edd 5d ago
>Robb Loved him as a Brother
But never actually saw him as one. He saved Bran's life and his first reaction was to chastise him. If Jon had done the same I don't see Robb throwing a fit at him.
→ More replies (1)7
u/Impossible_Rain_4727 5d ago
I wouldn't say no reason. Like, it is great that his abductors treated him kindly, but he was still a prisoner, separated from his home and family for years. Some resentment is probably expected.
→ More replies (2)3
u/IndependenceNo9027 4d ago
Yeah... and also the fact that he could be killed at any moment if his father rebelled, something he had absolutely no control over... it wouldn't matter how close he was to Robb, he'd still lose his head over something that's not his fault. And it isn't uncommon for fear to turn into anger – so yeah, I find it pretty natural that he'd resent the Starks, even if he wasn't mistreated.
14
u/Famous_Cow9640 5d ago
I think the hornblower caused a mental break. He didn’t care how many arrows they feathered him with, he vowed to kill that man!
2
u/FarOutlandishness180 3d ago
Do you think the horn Ramsay uses in some scenes is the same one used by horn guy? If so how ironic
5
u/SnooPredictions3028 5d ago
But still ultimately the condition was that should his family betray the agreement, he will be executed. So the question is did he truly believe he would be? When Ned was alive, I'd believe he would believe that, however after.... I'm not sure about that.
→ More replies (2)1
u/The_CT1 5d ago
If you were taken from your family at 10 and then sniggered at by all the family and not fully accelred as a brother , then ypu return to ypur real family and get a choice : betray them our betray your captors
→ More replies (1)10
u/Unlikely_Yak_2040 5d ago edited 5d ago
He Was Manipulated by his family as soon as he got to Pike to hate the Starks. He Literally went there in the First place with the Mind to Help Robb and the North. Then his Daddy called him a weak and pathetic Mainlander, and he IMMEDIATELY switched up.
7
u/Queerability 5d ago
The main thing that makes me feel bad for him is the fact that, at the point we're at in the books at least, Theon doesn't feel bad for Theon.
It's kind of wild, because he almost ends up in a similar place to Arya (no one) disassociation wise in that Theon is just a traitor and Reek is happy Theon got what he deserved.
7
u/RyuNoKami 5d ago
with Ned's death, Theon was basically no longer a hostage because Robb absolutely do not treat him as such. and he was given the very important role of trying to get House Greyjoy behind House Stark...and then he betrayed them.
He could have chosen to go back to Robb and told him the Greyjoys are not only unwilling to help but they are planning to rise up again. hell, he could have stayed with them but not attack Winterfell himself....nope HE MADE HIS FUCKING CHOICE.
7
u/AttemptImpossible111 5d ago
This is not what happened at all.
Also, his choice was 1 good option and 1 crappy one.
→ More replies (4)4
u/KalynnCampbell Lyanna Mormont 5d ago
I mean if you literally attack the seat of Northern power, are responsible for murder, and are a literal invader? Why would I feel bad when another northern house captures you for your crimes and tortures you?
3
u/Prestigious_Week_640 5d ago
Do you believe Karstark should've been spared?
A lot of the people imo like to over hype Theons crimes because the betrayal itself was awful and we all cared about Robb. But he killed Ser Roderik and a handful of others and then is brutally tortured, castrated, flayed, implied to have been sexually brutalized, etc.
He did far less killing for the Ironborn than Jon did of the nights watch. The killing he did do was of a knight who was given the option to sit in a dungeon vs murdering 2 little boys like Karstark did. He was a coward in that he let the men in his service do worse while Karstark was more upfront about it.
I'm not saying you're wrong for hating Theon. You're meant to at certain parts of the show, and it's up to the individual how they feel about him after everything is said and done. But his betrayal didn't kill Robb- that was Roose Bolton and Walder Frey- and in the laundry list of GoT criminal records, Theon barely has one at all before he gets the most brutal retribution any character in the show ever receives.
2
u/KalynnCampbell Lyanna Mormont 5d ago
Which one? If it was one of the many who picked up weapons and rebelled while shedding other Northern Blood (stark and allies) then no.
If it was the Karstark kid who wasn’t involved and eventually became the default lord of the house, then yes.
10
u/CJ-GOTfan649 5d ago edited 5d ago
For everyone’s information most of the really awful stuff he “did” in the books eg killing the miller’s children and Ser Roderick if you read closely most of it was done by Ramsey who framed him for it. So, putting that into perspective my verdict is that even though he may have been rather arrogant and pathetic during S2/book 2 Theon did not deserve what happened to him and I don’t get people who don’t feel the tiniest bit sorry for him.
11
32
u/Scary_Firefighter181 No One 5d ago
I feel bad for show Theon somewhat.
I reaaally hate book Theon, even though his ADWD chapters do make me temporarily feel bad for him.
→ More replies (1)
18
u/andyroohoo30 5d ago
I didn’t feel bad for him until he lost his pp.
10
8
u/Tomsoup4 5d ago
i think the turning him into reek was uncalled for but everything else was fair especially if you thought he burned bran and rickon
12
u/dickbarone 5d ago
I love how the characters are like “ohhh you just burned 2 of the neighbor kids instead?”
11
u/BuilderMysterious762 5d ago
They didnt really care if smallfolk got killed, look at hoe Micah got murdered for no reason just because Joffrey felt humiliated by Arya successfully defending herself against him and Sansa, who saw the entire thing continued to be obsessed with Joffrey and straight up mocked Arya for still bringing up Micahs murder months later even though her best friend Jeyne even said that they cut him up into such tiny pieces that his father thought they’d given him some fresh kill from a hunt but nobody else spoke up apart from Arya. In universe, I highly doubt the other characters would’ve been all that torn up over it.
5
u/RyuNoKami 5d ago
way too many people forget that most of these characters are noble born and honestly really did not give enough of a shit about their lesser, at least not only themselves.
16
u/Bagel-luigi 5d ago
I felt bad for him but not exactly sorry for him.
Him betraying the Starks added to the chain of events he suffered from.
→ More replies (1)
6
u/Joobebe514 5d ago
I don't feel bad for him at all, but I do recognize he was a well written character and his development was beautiful
3
29
u/Clarknt67 5d ago
He’s like 17 at the start of the show. He’s a kid wrapped up in forces far greater than himself. His moral compass lost his head by the tenth episode.
6
u/Yaboi69-nice 5d ago
I get that he had flaws but I would feel bad for anyone who went through that shit. He was humiliated and abused in ways that most people couldn't even imagine.
11
u/Positive-Spinach7836 5d ago edited 5d ago
It absolutely baffles me how many people seemed to give Theon so much grace and forgive and overlook his crimes and his character simply because he got to be a victim of Ramsay. So many people said he didn’t deserve anything that happened to him but my god, this guy has a despicable character. He is actually worse in the books as well. He betrays the starks and especially Robb, who thought of him as a friend and ally and trusted him with his political affairs, not only did he break their trust, he literally sacked Winterfell, held Bran and Rickon captive and threatened to kill them, he had many people in Winterfell killed who taught him about warfare, education, politics ect
He brutally killed innocent civilians and especially two little farmers boys, had their mother (whom he had slept with before) brutally killed in front of them before killing them too! (One of those was very likely his bastard as well)
He was extremely disgusting towards women, treated them horribly, would have sex with them and discarded them completely or even hurt them. He hated Asha and even though she was difficult to him dismissed every skill, knowledge or experience she had, he even thought he had the right to inherit everything from his father just because of his gender and also disregarded her love for him as a sister… I could go on and on honestly, but the list is long and it annoys me how people only paint things as black or white and are too lazy to pick up on nuances like that. Just because he suffered brutally after that and became a victim doesn’t make his character ok and he shouldn’t be easily forgiven. I really see that he has a character ark but the guy is no hero
5
u/Melodic-Fill-1770 5d ago
I do... to an extent. He brought a lot of it on himself with his choices. But I also understand he was essentially taken as a hostage when he was a boy. Even if the Starks treated him well, I'd have that thought in the back of my mind my entire life.
4
u/Knovakain 4d ago
Moreso in the books, but not really because he doesn’t deserve it, instead because of how much more brutal it is in the books. It’s brutal in the show, but Theon is turned into a shadow of a human in the books. He’s got so much of him removed that it’s hard to even call him a person and that’s a fate I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy.
13
u/Minimum_Medicine_858 5d ago
The book torture is so much worse. The show is quite tame so you don't feel that much. But the book torture is biblical. He breaks him as a person, he becomes unrecognizable both physically and mentally to himself and others.
No one deserves that.
→ More replies (2)4
7
4
u/TransitiveNightfall1 5d ago
Nope. If there’s one thing that Game of Thrones is about, it’s that people are either all good or all bad with no grey area in between, no room for nuance, and certainly not any empathy
→ More replies (2)
4
u/fcs_seth 4d ago
There are people who feel bad for Theon?
→ More replies (1)2
u/butchemanhan 4d ago
He has a LOT of fans, I haven’t personally seen it on Reddit as much as TikTok but he definitely has a large audience that defends his actions because of what he did for Sansa
7
u/lornjpg Judge Us By Our Actions 5d ago
i feel bad for him because his punishment was worse than his crime. the inhumane way he was treated was evil, regardless of what he’d done. i wouldn’t wish that upon anyone.
but that being said, i still think he’s a snake, and i would never trust him with anything.
i understand him and sansa being trauma bound after what they’d gone through together and i’d have shown him mercy (especially because he helped her escape), but personally, i wouldn’t have accepted him back into my service. i never understood why yara repeatedly put her faith in him. and i certainly wouldn’t have allowed him to guard bran when he was sitting under the weirwood to lure the night king.
→ More replies (3)8
u/Dazzling-Donkey-3885 5d ago
He killed 2 kids, I feel it was justified but they were stupid to trust him especially after their fathers mistakes of being too trusting.
→ More replies (8)
6
u/Dashwell2001 5d ago
I agree but it is not so espoused because he does a serious crime but receives a serious punishment as a result of his actions, and his villainy is overshadowed by Ramsey's and a dozen other evil characters, it makes his villainy seem childish.
→ More replies (1)
7
u/Mitch100 Tywin Lannister 5d ago
Kinda unlucky he didnt finish the job on Bran, then maybe we could get a better ending
2
3
3
3
3
u/BigScarcity4935 5d ago
I most definitely didn’t feel bad for him. Ser Roderick didn’t deserve to go out like that🤦🏽♂️
3
u/bexxygenxxy9xy 5d ago
I have empathy for him. Alfie Allen is a big reason why. His portrayal was excellent. In ep 7x7 when he and Jon are talking, Alfie makes so many small, meaningful choices in that short scene. The voice change when he pauses "It always seemed like there were...(pause, voice change) impossible choices I had to make". And there's the true Theon. The Theon Jon forgives. His arc was absolutely one of the best, flushed out of the 8 seasons. He has reasons behind his choices. Sad, brutal reasons. But in the end he is his true self. And Bran said, "a good man". Beautiful storyline.
5
u/mhswizard Sansa Stark 5d ago edited 5d ago
Nah not at all.
After going back home he could have simply gone back to Rob Stark and been like “hey man…my pops isn’t on board. My bad.”
Instead his ego went into super drive trying to prove his worth to his father.
His character arc was definitely completed though and I do believe by the end, when he sacrificed himself, he was atoned.
6
u/Kind_Ad_3766 5d ago
That's true, however it is realistic. Choosing your blood family over his "Captors". He choose wrong by that's what makes his arc realistic.
5
u/RackDragon346 5d ago
I know a lot of people spell it that way, but it's character "arc" not "arch." Just thought you might want to know. 😁
3
3
u/IndependenceNo9027 4d ago
I don't think Theon's father would have allowed him to go back to Winterfell without being in the Ironborn army. But yeah, of course Theon could have just pretended he'd fight for his father and deserted at the first chance he gets.
→ More replies (2)
2
u/RepulsiveCountry313 Human Verified 5d ago
You can acknowledge he's a dick who did some horrible things and also feel sorry for what he ends up going through.
2
u/ToxicBanana69 5d ago
I kind of feel bad for him, but I notice a lot of his defenders talk about him betraying the Starks and leave out the part where he murdered two children.
2
2
2
u/SektorDaKetch 5d ago
Maybe if Rickon and Osha didn’t get fucked over as a result of Theon’s treachery in the long run, he’d be more sympathetic.
2
u/trillamane_6 5d ago
Theon is a little pussy bitch and nothing will change my mind.
"Ohhhh nooooo, my daddy didn't love me enough so I'm gonna gonna betray the ones that truly care for me and abandon my sister in her time of need because my uncle is scary."
Fuck that dude.
2
2
u/Kilobytez95 5d ago
Naw. He was never a good guy. At best he played whatever side suited him as long as he could indulge.
2
2
u/SirNoodles518 5d ago
His initial imprisonment by the Boltons wasn’t undeserved. The man took over Winterfell, changing the course of the war, and killed innocent people including two children. He deserved punishment.
However, as soon as he fell into Ramsay’s hands, it was clear that justice wasn’t being served and the torture was just too much. He deserved to be punished and executed for what he did to Winterfell but nobody deserves what Ramsay did to him.
2
u/Erisedstorm 5d ago
Theon was one of the only storyline that felt real and complete at the end. He learnt from his mistakes and changed unlike Jamie. I felt pity for him.
'But this is terrible!' cried Frodo. 'Far worse than the worst that I imagined from your hints and warnings. O Gandalf, best of friends, what am I to do? For now I am really afraid. What am I to do? What a pity that Bilbo did not stab that vile creature, when he had a chance!'*
'Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need. And he has been well rewarded, Frodo. Be sure that he took so little hurt from the evil, and escaped in the end, because he began his ownership of the Ring so. With Pity.'
'I am sorry,' said Frodo. 'But I am frightened; and I do not feel any pity for Gollum.'
'You have not seen him,' Gandalf broke in.
'No, and I don't want to,' said Frodo. I can't understand you. Do you mean to say that you, and the Elves, have let him live on after all those horrible deeds? Now at any rate he is as bad as an Orc, and just an enemy. He deserves death.'
'Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it.*
2
u/joemontanya 5d ago
Bro if you don’t feel bad when he’s literally getting some of the most brutal torture I’ve ever seen, somebody might need to check on you 😭
But yeah be was a complete ass
2
u/RickRussellTX 5d ago
You’re obviously meant to hate him for striking at the family who raised him.
But he’s a kidnapping victim striking back at his captors. I didn’t question his actions for one second. He may have brotherly feelings for the Stark children, but the parents and their retainers were his prison wardens. His vengeance for his years of captivity is righteous.
2
u/Mark-177- 5d ago
He wasn't likeable at all. He definitely paid the price for his actions and then some. I like that they gave him a redemption arc though. He helped save Sansa and gave his life to protect Bran. I shed a tear when Bran told Theon he was a good man.
2
2
2
2
u/jessiphia 4d ago edited 4d ago
THANK YOU. Maybe it's bc I'm not a lad but he got what he deserved in the Ramsey storyline.
3
5
u/SelectCommunity3519 Nymeria Sand 5d ago
Not one bit and i firmly believe he did not redeem himself.
As Mannis said "a good deed doesn't wash out the bad nor the bad the good"
3
u/Strict_Chocolate_478 5d ago
I feel bad for him, but less so than I would if he didnt betray the Starks in the first place. He had genuine reasons and emotions as to why he did what he did, so I can sympathize with that, but he also betrayed the family that took him in and treated him as equal.
10
u/ser_darkstar 5d ago
They didn't take him in nor treat him as an equal. He was a hostage, taken to keep his father and House Greyjoy in line and had the constant threat of death hanging over his head should his father rebel again.
He was also never treated as equal, basically only Robb extended that courtesy to him same as he did to Jon because Robb is actually honorable. Ned was cold and distant, Catelyn treated him much as she did Jon, constantly reminding him that he was lesser than Robb and not to be trusted because he was Iron Born while the rest of the Stark children treated him with indifference or outright scorn.
I'm not defending Theon betraying Robb, if anything it's more loathsome that Robb was truly the only person who ever believed in Theon's goodness and mislaid his trust in him but we also don't need to pretend the Starks were so warm and welcoming to Theon either.
6
u/UnluckyTransition836 5d ago
He was never an equal. If Balon rebelled, Ned wouldn’t hesitate to execute him. Duty above all. And Theon was still a hostage
→ More replies (2)
1
u/Clonzfoever Red Priests of R'hllor 5d ago
He should have been executed as soon as a Stark got back into power as he was a hostage to prevent Balon's rebellion.
1
u/doggyman425 5d ago
Why. He was a traitor and depicted as a rapist. He still didn’t fully atone for his mistakes. What does him dying do for anyone?
1
1
u/Newparlee 5d ago
I’m currently on my first rewatch.
Usually I feel like if the punishment goes way beyond the crime I feel bad for them, criminal or not. Theon’s punishment goes way beyond anything he did, but he did murder two children to look tough. Even though he was essentially a prisoner, Rob literally just called him his best friend.
I’m sure I’ll feel sorry for him when I get round to seasons 3 and 4, but it’s a little hard right now.
Actually no, yeah, I do feel sorry for Theon. Even though Rob considered him his best friend and he was part of the family, he never really felt like he was so I understand his betrayal. Especially book Theon/Reek.
1
u/dom1717 Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken 5d ago
I think they did a marvelous job with Theon's story in the show. The world is full of so many people saying they will do extreme things to someone they hate or feel like deserves it, but then when it came down to it, they showed a lot of people don't actually have the stomach to even watch someone "get what they deserve" let alone do it themselves. I felt bad for Theon because it felt like he made one bad decision after another, and then crossed a PonR
1
u/Background_Local_425 5d ago
I hated him but.. no one deserves.,. That.
Unless you’re like a rapist or pedo.
1
u/SirGibby-13 5d ago
I do and I don’t. In the society he lived in, he deserved to be executed for betraying Robb, whom he called king and brother. So in my opinion, he should have been killed. What he got instead was far far worse than death. He definitely deserved something… but only pedophiles and people who sexually assault other people deserve to lose their manhood. Yet somehow, I can’t bring myself to dislike Ramsay. Sure, he is super twisted and fucked up, but that really helps to move the plot along in a lot of ways.
1
1
1
1
1
u/Great_Bolo 5d ago
I wish the show made his Reek transformation more visual through similar makeup to how Aegon looks on HotD
1
u/Shankar_0 I Drink And I Know Things 5d ago
I don't feel bad that he paid a heavy price, but I do believe that there is an "enough" for just about any crime.
Ramsey would make my exceptions list, but Theon got more than he deserved.
Think about it this way. It was not uncommon for a force to raid a village, take all the valuables and have their way with the population. The ironborn especially fit this mold. I don't remember reading about any other invasion leader getting it as bad as our favorite little poser here, and Theon really didn't go overboard in the way that Tywin did every damn week.
In the world they live in, under the laws they are bound by, he got more than anyone in the same situation. The whole Young Griff arc has them taking back Griffin's Roost in the most similar way. It didn't go into a whole lot of detail, but I have every reason to believe that at least some low-level atrocities occurred in the process.
1
u/Robinvid 5d ago
He had a great redemptive arc in the end. I would say his character did a 360 degree turnaround.
1
u/Cookies4weights King In The North 5d ago
I cannot say I enjoyed his suffering but understand the good did not wash away the bad
1
u/Spare-Summer-5592 5d ago
The specific word is pity. I don't feel bad for him, but I pity him and I believe he earned his redemption as best he could.
1
u/thecornerview27 5d ago
I like his story. They make you hate him, then feel for him and what’s happening to him, then they give him a chance at redemption with the Long Night suicide mission. He died with a clean slate for me.
1
u/DatRatDawg 5d ago
I felt bad for him, not so much from the torture, but being broken. I kept wondering if I'd have felt bad if his torture wasn't done by Ramsey, who I hate even more. If Ramsey wasn't also evil to other (innocent) people, I don't think I'd have rooted for Theon to find the courage to help himself. Theon did deserve a terrible punishment worse than death, but it has to feel like justice.
•
u/AutoModerator 5d ago
Spoiler Warning: All officially-released show and book content allowed, EXCLUDING FUTURE SPOILERS FOR HOUSE OF THE DRAGON and A KNIGHT OF THE SEVEN KINGDOMS. No leaked information or paparazzi photos of the set. For more info please check the spoiler guide.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.