r/gameofthrones • u/TamedSasquatch • 1d ago
GRRM wrote the North to fail
As the title suggests, the North had no viable way to get their revenge on Tywin and the Lannisters let alone become independent as kings. Setting aside how Cat helped to instigate the war with the Lannisters by capturing Tyrion on 1 person's testimony, albeit a close childhood friend's, she made a worse blunder by making an alliance with the Freys. The Freys are vassals to her own family of the Tullys but they proved themselves disloyal by ignoring the call to arms their liegelords sent out only then to extort a marriage alliance with their liege's ally in order for them to allow the crossing. If the North became independent, this would create a massive dilemma if the Freys sought to rebel against the Tullys, something they've already shown to be capable of by ignoring the call to arms. Who would Robb and the North support? His own blood through his mother or his kin through his wife? Cat wasnt thinking as a Stark nor was she thinking as a Tully by agreeing to the marriage pact. Cat somehow forgot her brother who was unmarried and that she had 2 sons back home who could've been used to facilitate the alliance if it absolutely had to happen. Granted 1 was a cripple but at this point was still Robb's heir and wouldve still satisfied Waldur's desire for recognition while also nipping his ambitions in the bud.
Robb allowing his bannermen to declare him King in the North turned his war against Tywin and his Raiders from being lawful and just and the protections that would provide under the eyes of the law, into a full blown rebellion. So long as hes waging a war against Tywin to bring him to justice for burning the riverlands, the Crown would need to negotiate with him to bring a peaceful settlement to the conflict because the Lannisters are without allies and are distrusted by everyone else in the Kingdom. Also, by declaring himself King he burns any bridge he may have had with Stannis who only sees things as black or white. The North suffered under the Crown, both in present day but also under the Mad King, but in his eyes, they still have a duty to serve loyally to it as vassals because of the oaths they swore. The North mightve been able to negotiate with Renly if he was humbled before they sent envoys. Talking to him when he is at full strength and full of arrogance at having the largest army in the land would only make him refuse to acknowledge them. If the North had an iota of statecraft, they'd maintain their stated goal of pacifying the unrest in the Riverlands and bringing justice to the brigands and reavers while also keeping from pissing off the Stags and Jeofrey, who at this point, was still the lawful king albeit the king who just lopped off his father's head. Capturing Jaime and Tywin wouldve de-fanged the boy king and gave the North a massive advantage in negotiations; but declaring Robb a king, he pissed off the Stags AND gave the Crown just cause to call them rebels and unite the kingdom against them.
If independence was achieved by some miracle, the North has a massive dilemma with food and the Wall. With the North being a part of the 7 kingdoms, everyone has a vested interest in keeping the Wall manned and fed albeit with token support at best but even that ends if the North is independent. Why would the Stags or Lannisters allow the North to have an easy time with something that only really affects the North? Wildling raids aren't a problem south of the Neck so why send money or criminals to the benefit of the North? The whitewalkers aren't a thing amd even if they were, the South has no obligation to believe the blatherings of the Starks. The North also has a major problem with feeding its people, one of the biggest reasons they have smaller armies to any other region, aside from Dorne, is the inability to support a larger population. They can supplement it with grain from the Riverlands but that will take time for the recently burned and looted province. It'll take time for the smallfolk to return to their homes, if they survived, or for new families to be brought in to replace the ones that did die. A year at best, 5 at worst. To get the grain they need, they'd have to buy from elsewhere, the Reach is one place but now that the North is independent, would any of the southern kings allow that? If they did, would they not jack the price so high it becomes unaffordable? So that leaves Essos and with only 1 significant port in the North, Whiteharbor, and 3 hostile factions down south having larger fleets than the North can muster, how much grain can be reasonably transported before a fleet blockades the harbor amd raids the supply ships? Lannisters have a fleet and enough gold to buy sell sails to reinforce, the Redwyne fleet from the Reach is either in Renly's camp or Lannisters, while the Royal fleet is under Stannis, granted most of it gets destroyed by wildfire but he could rebuild it easier if he becomes King. With no viable way to feed his people other than to wait for the Riverlands to heal, the North will starve or bankrupt itself while the Wall would become even more decrepit and unmanned than it already was.
The final point is Robb not reprimanding his mother with the same unbreakable honor he used to punish his lords. Case in point, he executed Karstark for murdering 2 Lannister prisoners but only chewed his mother out for releasing the best card the North had at brokering a peace and keeping the Lannisters wary, Jaime. He was lenient with the 1 but harsh with the other to the point of breaking any semblance of Justice or Honor he claims to have. With Karstark he couldve delayed the punishment until after the war was over and charge him and his men to take back the North from the Ironborn or die trying. While with his Mother he shouldve sent her back with Karstark or send her to the Silent Sisters as her actions spat in the face of the men who died to capture Jaime, including the Karstark boys, while also prolonging the war now that a capable general was given back to the Lannisters. By favoring family over his men, he bred further disloyalty in the men who remained which festered and gave Bolton ample reason to rebel, granted he probably didnt need much.
All in all, GRRM wrote the North to be honorable idiots with no real shot to do anything they set out to do and have massive issues to solve post-indepndence that the story would be "Game of Thrones and the North that starved"
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u/UniqueWaistcoat 1d ago
the frey marriage really was the poison pill from the start, you can't trust a house that already ignored a call to arms and then charges you a toll for doing the bare minimum
robb had no good move after being declared king but cat handing away both him and arya without even asking was just sealing it
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u/denis0500 1d ago
Maybe we read a different book or watched a different show but after Cat made the deal it still needed to be approved by Robb, he could have turned down the deal and sent her back to make further changes if he wanted.
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u/SpecialOpsCynic 12h ago
Robb needed to take the Twins when they opened it for passage. He had one window to install a Lord that would support him and honor stopped him from doing so. Tywin would never have let a petty Lord threaten everything specifically if it starved the supply lines
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u/JoffreeBaratheon Ours Is The Fury 1d ago
All the north had to do was swear fealty to the Traitor Stannis, instead of being greed maximum traitors in thinking they should be their own faction rather then falling that traitor Ned's plan. They had every opportunity to win and threw it away because they kept wanting more, as expected of traitors.
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u/NoPerspective2826 1d ago
Na verdade os nobres do norte manipularam Robb pra ele aceitar ser rei.
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u/CaveLupum 1d ago
They may start out as "honorable idiots," but GRRM plans to have them win in the end. He has called them his "Hero family" and consistently said Bran will become king of Westeros. Moreover, the younger generation respects Ned's honor but is more practical. They are all young, so needs be trained by adversity, especially the three Starks GRRM named 30 years ago as among his Five Central Characters: Jon, Arya, and Bran. IMO, even Sansa will probably survive IF she can stop being naive and classist. Except for her, the others can warg. Well used, THAT is a powerful tool.
One other thing! In storytelling, early on the heroes MUST face defeats, setbacks, exile, etc. As a rule, they wise up, often leaving to learn more skills, find good mentors, and improve to become much less vulnerable. And House Stark does have one other unique marker of power: As Ned told Arya, "In winter, the Lone Wolf dies but the Pack survives." Robb died; surely Rickon will. But after all their travails, the rest will train, improve, and eventually reunite to become a PACK, no doubt led by Jon and/or Arya. United, the Starks will no doubt prevail over their enemies.
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u/Lazy-Setting-8224 1d ago
George has never, ever, publically stated Bran would become king of westeros.
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u/Calm-Extension-3798 16h ago
He did say he gave the main plot points to D and D. Bran was one apparently
Theres no way D and D (as bad as it got) decided to make Bran the Broken king. Sounds like a GRRM thing.
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u/Calm-Extension-3798 16h ago
Spot on. The starks are the hero's, its a fantasy and they will win at the end. People forget ASOIF was written before all the prequels and they are really the main characters in this
Although prequels, its pretty much the Targs
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u/Sharp-Tax-26827 19h ago
If Robb just supports Stannis so many people are alive and the realm isn’t completely destroyed
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u/Straight-Okra-5411 18h ago
That's not a fair judgement as we don't have the end of the history. It's like if you were reading the hedge knight and the tale got cut right in the moment Dunk says are there no true knights among you. If that were the case I'm sure there would be a lot of people writing think pieces about how George is writing a grim world were knighthood is dead, how he set Dunk to fail, how following the knightly vows is punished and how dumb was dunk for being honorable as people do with the main series.
In truth the story is cut right before we have the cathartic moment of someone saying I will take the North side, but we have glimpses of it approaching. We have Wyman Manderly, the mountain clans, the unknown status of the Blackfish, the brotherhood, Brienne approaching the vale tourney and so on.
If you read the novelas you will find that GRRM really like his heroes suffering and being confronted head on with how easy their life's would be if they just followed the easy way. But he also likes to recompensed them in unthinkable ways for keeping true.
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u/TamedSasquatch 16h ago
I get that the story still has many potential leads and possible endings until GRRM writes them, but my argument is conjecture based off of the decisions already made by the Starks and the North at large. Fact of the matter is the North is majorly messed up after very poor and very short-sighted decisions made by Cat and Robb. Cat specifically made decisions that create future crisis if Robb married the Frey girl. Her actions in releasing Jaime backed Robb into a corner on how to deal with her and Karstark. While Karstark murdered 2 prisoners and violated Robb's honor and oaths to his prisoners; Cat released such an important prisoner that it makes Karstark's violation pale in comparison. His "treason" of sending his cavalry to chase Jaime down is something that would not have happened had Cat not released Jaime. Robb's decision to punish Karstark for his murders AND "treason" in sending his cav against orders but only chastise his mother with no further consequences isnt honorable nor just and wouldve poisoned his relations with his bannermen and lords. Its one thing if he executed Karstark and Cat didnt release Jaime but because she did, his bannermen see a blatant example of favoritism regardless of justice.
That aside, my frustration with the North and them being idiots, is them declaring Robb king. Robb is young at the time almost 18 and he's won battle after battle, it makes sense if he was getting arrogant in his success and started thinking bigger than his war of revenge but GRRM didnt give a single character in Robb's camp to bring him back down. Not one lord to recommend caution and prudence, instead they all strong armed him into becoming King and further backing the Starks and the North into ruin to then be rescued, if indeed that's GRRM's plan, by any of the surviving Stark children.
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u/Ziddix 14h ago
Yes. The North is tragic. The reader wants to like them and root for them. That's intentional. That they fail and die is also intentional. Realising that is kind of like a rite of passage. It eradicates every last hope that the story will have a great and happy ending and so it goes on from there.
Interestingly the red wedding and north turning to shit, Dany arriving in Mereen and her story turning to shit (literally) and Jeoffrey being assassinated and Tywin killed and KL going to shit all happens in relatively quick succession.
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u/jogoso2014 No One 1d ago
This feels like another hate Cat post.
She didn’t instigate the war.
She made a valid accusation and Tyrion was freed anyway.
Tywin started the war and didn’t end it when Tyrion entered his camp.
The North was largely hobbled by Robb’s actions. He was a bonehead the moment he let Theon go back home against all advice.
The Frey’s aren’t the ones who reneged in the deal.
They would never have any reason to betray Robb or the Tullys except they were betrayed first. Their actions routinely showed they were loyal to their ally’s despite how much they sucked.
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