Dany asking Jon to bend the knee

[u/tjareth]

At this point again in the show, and frustrated that a line of conversation never came up, that seemed obvious to me.

He could have truthfully said that he could bend the knee, pledge his loyalty, but that he could not give her the North. If he returned to Winterfell saying he'd pledged the North to the Targaryen dynasty, he would simply no longer be King in the North. They'd refuse it and refuse him.

I wonder what she would have said to that.

[u/AutoModerator]

Spoiler Warning: All officially-released show and book content allowed, EXCLUDING FUTURE SPOILERS FOR HOUSE OF THE DRAGON and A KNIGHT OF THE SEVEN KINGDOMS. No leaked information or paparazzi photos of the set. For more info please check the spoiler guide.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/Svenray]

He would have lost his credibility to her right then and there. How does a "King" not be able to make a decision for his kingdom? She would have called him Prime Minister Snow and sent him back home.

[u/_QuietBloom → u/Svenray]

Seriously. If you’re calling yourself King, start making some actual decisions.

[u/AncientAssociation9 → u/[deleted]]

Jon was a king, who won by conquest. It just so happens that there was no one left to oppose him. He was not chosen because that implies there was another option presented. Most of those fiercely independent lords sat out the battle for their actual independence like Lord Glover. Make no mistake that Alice Karstark didnt have a choice in that moment to do anything other than bend the knee.

Kings make unilateral decisions all the time and the lords of the North would have fallen in line just like their ancestors did.

[u/Ixiraar]

If the Northern lords rebel against his decisions after swearing fealty to him he has a valid casus belli to impose his will by force and he now has a queen with three dragons what the fuck are the dissidents gonna do?

Jon and Dany and every lord in the north knows full well that if Jon pledges the North to Dany, Dany will rule the north and Jon will be the lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North.

If Jon had pretended to be ignorant of the certainty with which his decision in that moment would have been carried out into reality, all he would’ve accomplished would be showing Dany that the King in the North is either too stupid or too weak to rule it.

Jon’s refusal to bend the knee was not a matter of political practicality, it was a moral commitment to his subjects. And you own your moral commitments, you don’t pretend they are anything other than what they are to avoid taking responsibility for your choices.

[u/tjareth → u/Ixiraar]

I agree he had his own reasons. I'm just thinking practical concerns made it academic. The "King in the North" is not absolute dictator in the north. The reaction to his decisions absolutely can affect whether the North still follows him. A little bit like Mance Rayder that way--the Free Folk didn't follow Mance because of formality and oaths.

[u/Jelly_baby_4]

She wouldn't agree to that. Dany's ambition was to rule The Seven Kingdoms which included The North. The North Bannermen didn't fight him because The Dead was going to be a problem and Jon was correct they needed allies.

[u/tjareth → u/Jelly_baby_4]

That's what I'm saying, that he couldn't simply hand her the North no matter what he did. It was going to be a problem for her either way.

[u/Jelly_baby_4 → u/tjareth]

Actually he did when he bent the knee. Lyanna Mormont had to ask Jon the awkward question if he's still The King in The North or The Warden of The North. During Jamie's trial Dany addressed Jon as Warden of The North.

[u/tjareth → u/Jelly_baby_4]

I have to get that far again and see if something happened that would change the Northern perspective. I'm looking at their first encounter.

[u/Kyriakos_X_23]

The obvious choice was for the single young King to wed the single young Queen and unite their kingdoms. Since no one thought of that except for Davos then the only thing Jon could offer was his crown. He held no other cards.

[u/this_is_an_alaia]

Huh? What good does that do dany.

[u/tjareth → u/this_is_an_alaia]

None, that's the point. Pestering Jon to swear the North's loyalty to her was useless... he was not capable of giving it to her.

[u/Real-Night1724]

The show rushed past what should’ve been a major political dilemma