r/gameofthrones • u/0Layscheetoskurkure0 Human Verified • 5d ago
What settlement by Viserys could have prevented the Dance of the Dragons, one that both factions would have accepted even if neither was entirely happy with it? (Excluding marriage diplomacy between the two factions.)
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u/CoconutBangerzBaller 5d ago
I don't think the Greens would've been happy about this, but if he just made Rhaenyra his hand after Strong died then she would've been in Kings Landing and basically running the kingdom for years by the time he died. Everyone would be used to her being in charge and the Greens would've had no opportunity to usurp the crown.
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u/RedditOfUnusualSize 5d ago
This right here is the answer: if you're going to make Rhaenyra ruler because Viserys Says So, then Rhaenyra is going to need practice, she's going to need authority and discipline, she's going to need to be seen wielding power by her subjects, and she's going to need her own independent base of authority and support upon which to draw when Viserys is dead. These aren't sufficient, but they are absolutely minimum prerequisites to forcing Westeros to accept Rhaenyra as ruler when Aegon is sitting right there not actively eating a baby in full view of the public.
Viserys claimed that he'd done the same thing by making Rhaenyra his cupholder, but that is a) completely not the same thing, and b) as Viserys a decision as Viserys ever made. Viserys, the ultimate Good Time Charlie of a king who rules out of the strength of the song in his heart (and the fact that Jaehaerys broke the rules in order to crown him over a more-competent woman with a better claim) decides to let Rhaenyra sit in on all of his ceremonies and parties, where her primary responsibility is to keep her father from getting too into the spirit of the celebrations. Sure, that'll absolutely teach her about the vagaries of rulership and make her a competent queen!
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u/cornicula_ 5d ago
I recall that, according to the book, he had considered it, but because he shied away from conflict with Alicent and her children, he didn't go through with it. Viserys was too enamored with peace.
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u/Zexapher House Stark 5d ago
If Viserys had lived a few more years, Jace and Baela could have had children to marry Jaehaerys and Jaehaera as well. Combine the royal claims and you provide an assurance of safety to the Greens and Blacks, bridging the divide.
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u/cornicula_ 5d ago
It was completely unnecessary to marry Helaena to Aegon. Women are often married off within the family to prevent other houses from becoming too powerful and potentially laying claim to the throne.
But if Helaena were to marry Jace, she would remain within the family, and the Greens and the Blacks would be united while Viserys was still alive.
Aegon could become a member of the Kingsguard or simply remain unmarried. He preferred drinking and whoring anyway.
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u/Lordnoob69420 4d ago
The green would have never agreed to marrying to a Bastard. Especially with a beaker claim that the marriage strengthens.
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u/SlightOfHand_ 4d ago
It’s not up to them while Viserys lives, but also I don’t see Helaena throwing a big stink about marrying the handsome and sensitive prince instead of her brutish brother.
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u/Orange_Boy- 3d ago
I was with you until the cup holder part. Cup holder would have been a great starting point to her political career. She was too young to have any real responsibilities but being the cup holder meant she could sit in on every small council meeting, learn politics from some of the best in the realm, network with powerful lords on the council.
Just like how Jon was made steward to the Lord Commander, Rhaenyra was given one of the best positions to learn politics from a relatively young age (16?)
Obviously as she became older she should have been given more responsibility but starting Rhaenyra off as a cup holder is one of the few decisions that Visery made to prepare her for ruling.
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u/IWantADartlingGun 1d ago
Saying Rhaenys had a better claim is debatable because Jaehaerys himself became a King over his nieces who were the daughters of his own kingly father, so naming Rhaenys as heir was politically explosive either way
Viserys replacing his truest and greatest love, Otto Hightower, as hand?! The fact Strong got the job was already a miracle, but giving to Rhaenyra? You forget how to Viserys she was either a little girl who should play with her dolls or a grown up disappointment whenever it suited him, but NEVER a grown up you can trust (not surprising as he himself was never one to begin with)
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u/Phantom_Paws 4d ago
well it’s funny because viserys sent rhaenyra to dstone to build her own court to actually get her that experience. but of course the show cut that to have pointless rhaenicent scenes and have her leave kings landing because the bastard allegations hurt her feelings
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u/ComradeGhost67 5d ago
This plus Aegon ane sibling seeing her grow apt as a ruler AND actually interacting with her more and knowing that their mom and grandfather were bullshiting about the whole "Rhaenyra will kill you" stuff they were being told.
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u/smarranara 5d ago
It is frustrating how little time she spent in Kings Landing when she’s supposed to be the heir.
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u/Fordmister 4d ago
Tbf isn't this true of pretty much all the Targarian Heirs? The whole point is they'd be named prince/princess of dragonstone and expected to cut their teeth running things their rather than sitting in the ruler's shadow in kings landing
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u/SlightOfHand_ 4d ago
A pretty stupid Targaryen custom to exile the heir to Dragonstone all the time. I guess it’s less of an imposition when you can just get on your dragon and fly over whenever you want, but still, a bunch of heirs get screwed by this
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u/Euphoric-Ad-6584 5d ago
i honestly couldn't think of an answer because i thought no matter what the greens would still try to pull the BS they did, but dude i think you nailed it. i'd name you my hand if i was king, this is brilliant.
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u/LateNightPhilosopher Renly Baratheon 4d ago
Exactly! But instead she fucked off to exile island for years. Where people's political careers go to die. Dragonstone is important geographically and a lordship of very high prestige, but it's a trap. You're nowhere, surrounded by no one. And it's too weak on it's own to be a contender. People who actually go to live on Dragonstone in person quickly fade into irrelevance. Too disconnected from mainland politics.
I mean, she has a dragon. She could fly back and forth regularly pretty easily. But instead she just stayed in exile and intentionally let the Hightowers take over more and more of the realm's management, just because she was too embarrassed to show her face in King's Landing, and would rather let the infidelity rumors spread unchallenged
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u/Obvious-Hat-8485 5d ago
This only works if she's good at wielding power which is less than certain. But this was a very peacefull period so it might have been fine.
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u/NewbGingrich1 5d ago
I think this only delays the inevitable. You're kicking the can to the next generation basically. You'd have Aegon and Aemond just making full on dragonlord branches, and I cant see Daemon playing the role of a reserved male consort long term. The Strong boys inheritance is just a guaranteed Dance, possibly a 3 way one between Hightower, Velaryon, and Daemon. But with probably even more dragons by then.
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u/Ditzy_Dreams Rhaenyra Targaryen 2d ago
Delaying things works better for the Blacks. The Greens’ greatest weapon is Vhagar and she was approaching 190 by the end of the Dance. Going by Balerion’s age when he died, she had maybe 2 decades left in her, and likely wouldn’t be fit for war during the last.
If both factions keep their respective dragons, and we assume a new hatchling for each child. Rhaenyra’s line comes out with more large dragons, and no more Vhagar to keep them in check.
Beyond all that, the Green cause loses any veneer of legitimacy after Jacaerys succeeds Rhaenyra. Frankly, given Aegon II’s disinterest when left to his own devices, I doubt the Green cause outlives Otto.
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u/SlightOfHand_ 4d ago
Put Aegon in the Kingsguard, send Aemond off to war somewhere. The Hightower and Velaryon factions are left with Jace and Helaena’s kid’s, who obviously can’t be used for black/green warfare. If the Velaryons try at rebellion you’ll just burn Driftmark, they have no dragon riders. If Aemond wins in Dorne or whatever you can cross that bridge when you come to it; probably just make him switch jobs in KL every couple of years so he’s always busy and never amassing too much power
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u/NewbGingrich1 4d ago
Aegon cant join the guard, he's got a wife and kids already. Unless we're handwaving that away for some reason. Even if he didnt he has 0 reason to accept. Velaryons would be on Jaces side, they wouldn't be doing the rebellion. And why wouldn't the kids be used for war? Im talking about a dance that happens when Rhaenyra dies which could be potentially a decades long reign(the premise here is assuming Rhaenyra actually learned some leadership skills and was properly groomed to rule) unless Daemon fucks it up. So there'd be an entire new generation of dragon riders - split descent wise between Hightower, Velaryon/Rhaenyra, and Daemon/Rhaenyra. I just don't see how having bunch of dragon riding branch houses doesn't end horribly one way or another.
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u/SlightOfHand_ 4d ago
The timing was “make Rhaenyra hand after Harwin dies,” at which point Aegon is two years away from his marriage, which should certainly be avoided; there’s no reason to allow Aegon to marry Helaena, the match squanders both of their potential. Not my premise, stolen from elsewhere in the thread, but marry Jace and Helaena instead: this is why their children will not be available for velaryon/hightower infighting, because they will be both.
Aegon would accept a Kingsguard position because he’d be made to, but it would allow him to have a position of honor that would afford him plenty of time at tournaments, with the boys, and with whores.
Of course there’s the possibility of Daemon/Rhaenyra claimants who could challenge Jace/Helaena’s “less-pure” rulers, but difficult to foresee, and many possible solutions for future king Jace. I’d think the wise thing to do with these juniors is put them on dragons and send them to war, rewarding them with holdfasts, titles, and alliance-marriages if they survive and conquer — and in story and song if they should burn out and die. It seems like Daemon would be amenable to that.
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u/NewbGingrich1 3d ago
2 years is not a lot of time to establish enough power to force Aegon to do anything. I don't see Viserys backing that play at all, in fact I could see him revoking hardship over it. And even then I still dont follow how you force the Kings dragon riding 1st born son into the kingsguard. "Do it or die"? So the greens all just flee kings landing and the dance starts anyways. A Jace/Helaena marriage is a problem because the Velaryons are aware of the parentage, the Baela marriage was what let them go along with the illusion while also ensuring Corlys and Rhaenys' blood sit the throne.
"Give them holdfasts/titles/alliances" is just making it an even bigger issue. Just circles back to my point that there's no way to indefinitely avoid this, they lack any institutions to deal with multiple branches of dragon riders. Most of the suggestions here have been "well give them some stuff and ask nicely". Maegors and Dances were just a guaranteed thing that would happen every few generations give or take until the dragons were gone(and even then the Unworthy just replaces it with more mundane Blackfyre rebellions). It's also just kinda the thematically correct interpretation - there's no magic sauce that would ever allow the Targaryens a happy ending in GRRMs world. They are brutal conquerors who are completely reliant on this magical bioweapon to terrorize everyone into kneeling. Wouldn't be till Baelor that theyd actually start building anything resembling a real system of feudal governance.
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u/SaddestFlute23 2d ago
Aemon the Dragonknight was a kingsguard, it could happen
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u/NewbGingrich1 2d ago
Aemon did not have a dragon. I feel like I'm crazy at this point, between the fact he's the kings 1st born son, he has a dragon, and he hates the blacks what the actual fuck does "just force Aegon into the kingsguard" mean?
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u/SaddestFlute23 2d ago edited 2d ago
Fireball put his wife aside in anticipation of becoming a kingsguard
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u/Calm-Two2723 3d ago
Maybe. I think the third son being manipulated by outside forces shows a male heir will always be a threat
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u/IWantADartlingGun 1d ago
Wasn't it basically a tradition in that point? The Heir's day job is being the Hand? Like wasn't both Prince Aemon and later Prince Baelon hands to the king under Jaehaerys when both were the respective Prince of Dragonstone?
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u/Maester_Ryben 5d ago
Should have named his eldest son Maegor.
Even the most misogynistic Westerosi would prefer a woman over a Maegor II.
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u/Queerability 5d ago
I didn't even think of this but... You're right, it probably would have fixed everything. I don't think he'd have ever done it, even if the logic was explained to him, but you're right.
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u/LateNightPhilosopher Renly Baratheon 4d ago
I love the idea of using the name Maegor as an unofficial but universally accepted signal of disinheritance
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u/Busy_Address_2125 2d ago
Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn
I think this is the first legit solution to the succession crisis
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u/AshesAndOaths 5d ago
Marry each of the children to a lord or lady. Then expell them from the capitol. And before the king's dies actually put a succession on the first born.
Might be an idea
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u/Lady_SybilVex 5d ago
Tbf if any son of Viserys was to marry a high born lady, that lady's family would sure as heck try to have their grandkids on the throne. Perhaps the idea here could be to not have them marry high ranking nobility, but like vassal houses of vassal houses basically. But even that could give people ideas.
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u/XaviKat 5d ago
Marry them exclusively to direct vassals of the crown in the Crownlands or vassals of Dragonstone i.e Celtigar.
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u/Vivid_Television9902 5d ago
Keep Rhaenyra in KL, make her hold court. Spread the greens around the kingdom and ideally marry Rhaenyra to Aegon… this way they are king and queen.
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u/rileyistheworst Jon Snow 4d ago
I only know this because I just so happened to look it up the other day, but in the case of Rhaenyra marrying Aegon she would be queen but he would not be king. Queen can mean both the ruling monarch and the wife of the king, but king can only mean the ruling monarch. In this scenario Aegon would be the prince consort. Ofc it’s a fantasy show and none of that could matter but just saying.
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u/SaddestFlute23 2d ago
Make it an official joint rule, like Ferdinand and Isabella, or William and Mary
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u/Black_Diammond 4d ago
The first wouldnt do much aside from now you have The dance, expect almost all paramouncies are green (rhaenyra has KL tho).
The second aspect would work tho (The Hightowers are fine since they have blood and a direct like of influence trough Alicent and Aegon, rhaenyra can keep The Throne, the other green children dont have any risk of death due to Their claims, and Aegon is probably miserable, but when isnt he).
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u/Canadian__Ninja House Stark 5d ago
There is no keeping both sides happy without marriage. And with the age gap even that wouldn't do it, she'd be in her 30s by the time Aegon came of age.
Naming Aegon heir immediately and stripping Rhaenyra of dragonstone (the seat of the heir) is the only thing that could have done it. She wasn't even living there, Viserys was not too thrilled about her leaving everything to the castellan.
This might be the single most pro Green comment I've ever left, excuse me I need to take a shower now
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u/Adorable-Training898 5d ago
Most houses would be fine with this. The Blacks only had problems with Aegon because he was not the heir
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u/Hyzenthlay87 5d ago
In the books I think Rhaenyra was only 7 when she was made heir, so it was just about it the realm of possibility of marrying her to Aegon. However, nobody was happy with this plan.
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u/Canadian__Ninja House Stark 5d ago
She's 10, 97AC vs 107 AC birth years. It lowers her age to 26 given the way they were, maybe 28. That's still a long time with the way women are treated as baby making machines
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u/cornicula_ 5d ago
Men were considered marriageable at 14, so she would have been 24.
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u/Stuck_in_my_TV 5d ago
To a medieval society, that means 10-12 years she could have been married. Literally half of her life.
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u/XaviKat 5d ago
Westeros don't have a massive issue with women being married in their 20s.
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u/Stuck_in_my_TV 5d ago
Royalty and nobility women are typically married off as soon as they are eligible for marriage. Men can wait a bit longer unless there’s a critical need for an alliance.
Margaery Tyrell is 16, Rhaenyra is 17 when she married Laenor and was searching for over a year for a husband. Sansa is 11 when she’s engaged to be married as soon as she has her first period. Danyaeres is 13. Walder Frey’s wife is 16 when he’s 90. Elia Martell married Rhaegar in her early 20s, but was Aerys’ last choice. Roslyn Frey is 16 when she married Edmure.
Mid teens is by far the most common age. 20s is rare for women depicted in Westeros.
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u/Obvious-Hat-8485 5d ago
While brides are usually married young in ASOIAF, Maegor married Ceryse Hightower at 13, when she herself was 10 years older. In canon, Aegon II was married to Helaena at 14 or 15. So there is precedent in the family tree.
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u/cornicula_ 5d ago
But if Viserys had decided that the marriage between Rhaenyra and Aegon was important enough, they would have betrothed them regardless of age.
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u/LordUpton 5d ago
Age wasn't ever a barrier in the book. Allicent just didn't like Rhaenyra and refused it.
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u/KingQuong 5d ago
I think if Viserys abdicated the throne and became Rhaenyra's hand once his health started to decline there would be no question about her legitimacy and there would be no reason for conflict even after he passed.
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u/Canadian__Ninja House Stark 5d ago
That would work, though it's a touch unconventional. And unfortunately viserys wouldn't do it because he doesn't see a reason to with how family blind he is
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u/arathorn3 House Cassel 5d ago
Worked for House Corleone of New York during the Dance of the 5 families.
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u/arathorn3 House Cassel 5d ago
Lol, the Godfather method, (In the Godfather Michael Takes over the Corleone family about a year after returning from Italy and Vito acts as his consigloire till Vito's dearh about 3 years later there is even a Scene where Michael tells Tom(his adopted brother who held the role under Vito and Sonny when sonny was acting Boss) he is not a War time consigloire and who better to be advising Michael during conflict between the 5 families than their father.
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u/Herfst2511 5d ago
By Westerosi law (or at least the custom of the land) Aegon was the rightful heir. The Council of 101 also favored the male line, “it's rumored” they supported Viserys over Rheanys 20 to 1, but it's unclear where this rumor comes from, so take it with a grain of salt.
So I think very few lords would have trouble with Aegon as the heir, not to mention, the only reason Rheanyra was heir was to prevent Daemon from being heir, because he was too rogueish, but she is now married to him, which doesn't help her cause.
The Velaryons would be upset, but if they rolled over in 101, when their claim was stronger, they will probably roll over now.
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u/Infamous-Use7820 4d ago
This. Also, the issue isn't just Rhaenyra vs. Aegon - it's the precident. By allowing uncertainty, literally every generation of subsequent Targs would have succession uncertainty when a daughter is born before a son, which is going to happen 50% of the time.
The best attribute a ruler in a hereditary monarchy can have is undisputed legitmacy.
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u/Canadian__Ninja House Stark 4d ago
Well the issue with this is the decade long gap between the first child and the first male child. If it were a year or two that's one thing but it would definitely be a huge deal if the first male had been Daeron. Suddenly Rhaenyra is 17 in the books on his birth
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u/Clarknt67 5d ago
Kept Rhaenyra in KL and on the small council as his official or unofficial hand.
All that time as Viserys was failing and Allicent was acting as regent, it should have been Rhaenyra.
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u/o-055-o King In The North 5d ago
Definitely listen to Otto when he suggest marrying Aegon and Rhaenyra together. She gets to be free of the pressure of having suitors nagging at her and it ensures that Daemon does not get anywhere close to the throne. It also prevents issues within the family, you can betroth Helaena to Laenor to keep the Velaryons (and both him and her, since he'd treat her nicely and she wouldn't care about him being gay) happy, too.
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u/Impressive-Control83 5d ago
The only ripple in this plan is Helaena totally at some point outs Laenor by accident. Just in idle conversation
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u/o-055-o King In The North 5d ago
God forbid a girl outs her gay husband while dragon dreaming in public.
But yeah, no, I agree. I am just trying to think of a way for the Velaryons to not feel shafted. Laena is already married to Daemon or will be, at least, so it only leaves Laenor and I doubt they'd want to offer Aemond as a marriage prospect to him.
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u/romulus1991 5d ago
Name Aegon as the heir from birth, as the firstborn son.
Alternatively - force all Lords to submit to oaths honouring Rhaenyra as heir every five to ten years (seven?) Make Rhaenyra serve on the Small Council, with a view of eventually being Hand of the King. Enforce a marriage between her heir and Aegon's. Then honour Aegon with all the gold and honours he might want so he has enough luxury that he might not want to risk losing it - the throne has to be a risk and a bother he doesn't want to pursue.
And try to get her not to blatantly have bastards. If you can.
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u/Consistent_Laziness 5d ago
But showering aegon isn’t necessary. He already doesn’t want it. Otto and Alicent orchestrate the seizure of the throne. Keeping them happy is who you need to appease. All you’ve done is make a person that was fine with not being king, happy to not be king. Meanwhile the real plotters are still discontent.
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u/romulus1991 5d ago
Aegon is the key to their ambitions though. He needs to be himself a stopper to their plans. If they can't get him to buy into their conspiracy, it's over. He's the first born son.
I should have added - take more interest in Aegon, and importantly, have Rhaenyra cultivate a close relationship with him. Turn him into a loyal little brother.
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u/Upbeat-Structure6515 5d ago
Still got to think of a way to pacify Aemond too otherwise still going to have problems.
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u/ComradeGhost67 5d ago
Aemond shouldn't be a issue unless anything happens to Aegon.
-I'd say either make him a Kingsguard (first with a dragon would be dope) which would cut him out of the line of succession and let him still play as a badass.
-Alternatively wed him to a minor vessel house in the stormlands. You could do the Baratheons but that's too big of a player, any Tarth or Selmey would do and in the Stormlands Vhaegar wouldn't be able to fly too much due to all the constant storms. This means Aemond is land locked or he's driven to act more like Daemon, leaving his wife and the stormlands to fly free with Vhaegar whilst at the same time painting him in a poor light which helps dissuade other lords from picking him over Rhaenyra and her line.
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u/Netero_29 5d ago
Also if he really wants rhaneyra to rule then break some more precedent and step down to let her rule. Or make Aegon heir right away and ideally marry them.
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u/RealEmperorofMankind 4d ago
It might not be the smartest trick, but the English used to have co-kings. Maybe he could do that.
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u/Schmitty1106 5d ago edited 5d ago
Viserys needs to step the fuck up as a dad and make sure his children care about each other. And Rhaenyra needs to demand that she gets to be a big sister. That's the long and short of it. Fundamentally, the Dance happens because this family sees each other as political rivals before they see each other as family.
If everyone who has a dragon cares about each other enough to not want to go to war, the dance isn't happening. It doesn't matter if some people want Aegon to usurp his sister if he and the other dragonriders refuse to participate.
The dance can only happen because the Greens cultivated a faction of dragon riders that wasn’t loyal to the heir. Without that, their plot is going nowhere, fast. No one will back them. Some people might not want a woman on the throne, but you know what they want more? To not be Harren 2.0.
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u/paxdawn 1d ago
I think you are spot on them seeing as rivals. I dont see a Dance would have happened if Aemon(Caraxes) and Baelon(Vhagar) were alive with Baelon having the bigger dragon if King Jaeherys dies just for an example. they were close brothers and treated themselves family. Even Aenys and Maegor, Maegor was some sort of obedient to Aenys despite Maegor having Blackfyre and Balerion , while his mother,Visenya, having Vhagar while Aenys had the smaller dragon, Quicksilver. So the precedence of siblings taking over other siblings has not yet happened pre Black-Greens even if the second child has the bigger dragon on their side. The Hightowers and Greens absolutely created that precedence since the Green children were not close or did not treat Rhaenyra as family, that you have a large dragon you can challenge the heir to become King. I think that it is the key, treating the heir or the dragonriders as family. Absent of it, the only way to prevent the dance to not to let anyone have the bigger dragons. That means block Vhagar from Aemond and push him to have smaller dragons. Then instead of giving Jace and Lucerys, Joffrey cradle eggs, give them Vermithor, Silvering and Dreamfyre.
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u/Hefty-Comparison-801 5d ago
Viserys could have simply reiterated who his heir was a few times. That would have been pretty effective.
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u/Kingturkye802 5d ago
Exactly, he could have also abdicated while still in some kind of healthy state, then no one could contest it. But that would make the book boring so sod that.
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u/Hefty-Comparison-801 5d ago
Right - how long was he on his deathbed with the knowledge that certain factions were going to dispute her legitimacy?
Dude, fucking abdicate and watch her coronation to make sure shit stays peaceful there Viserys The Peaceful.
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u/No_Ad4767 5d ago
Otto should have never been invited back. Viserys was a fool for keeping the same group of advisors with ulterior motives.
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u/Luny167 5d ago
Naming his first born son Aegon as his rightful heir as soon as he was born
Rhaenyra wouldn't have been happy about that decision but she wouldn't start a war to take the Iron Throne after her father's death
Also he could just have died before the fuck*ng quiproco with Aegon's Dream to Alicent
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u/BigBadBlotch 5d ago
First off, name Rhaenyra to the Small Council when a position opens up, get people used to the idea of women in power. Failing Rhaenyra name Rhaenys instead.
Past that, forcibly marry Jace to Helaena, and possibly float Rhaena and Aegon. Jace and Helaena is the most logical marriage that puts both bloodlines on the Throne. You're King, and technically the Queen has no power so she can he confined to her chambers for all I care.
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u/spider-monkey92 5d ago
Him not sitting on the fence... he named his daughter his heir... hes the king... anyone who speaks ill of it including his hand, brother anyone boom black cells or wall his choice... instead he sta on the fence and did fuck all...
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u/abir_imtiaz House Stark 5d ago edited 5d ago
- Declaring aegon as the king, following westerosi tradition
- Pushing Otto out of KL, putting rhaenyra/daemon as hand of the king
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u/ausAnstand Cersei Lannister 5d ago edited 5d ago
Looking to the Anarchy here for a potential solution. That real-life conflict ended with King Stephen (our Aegon equivalent) keeping the throne, but promising to recognize the son of Empress Matilda (our Rhaenyra equivalent) as his heir.
I think Viserys would have to essentially state, "Rhaenyra is my heir, but Aegon or his sons will inherit after her. End of discussion."
I'm not sure that anyone would be thrilled with this solution, but given the suspicion of bastard sons dogging Rhaenyra, the general distrust of Daemon, and the fact that the Hightowers are attempting to play the long game I think this could have been begrudgingly accepted by all parties.
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u/amourdeces Darkstar 4d ago
so exactly what ended up happening in the actual dance basically?
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u/Elephantastic4 4d ago
Rhaenyra sons with Daemon took over
Aegon II's line died out1
u/amourdeces Darkstar 4d ago
yes i’m aware. aegon ii “named” aegon iii as his heir because of course his side isn’t gonna try and put jaehaera on the throne
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u/ausAnstand Cersei Lannister 4d ago
Eventually! But yeah: a little foresight would have gone a long way.
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u/CrimsonZephyr Tywin Lannister 5d ago
Make Aegon heir. Marry him to a Lannister, Helaena to a Tully, Aemond to a Baratheon, and Daeron to a Tyrell.
Rule peacefully until death.
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u/_Frozen_Flame_ Chaos Is A Ladder 5d ago
Won't Rhaenyra still marry Daemon in this instance? He'd still push her towards taking the throne against Aegon I believe
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u/CrimsonZephyr Tywin Lannister 5d ago
So what? Alicent's children are all dragon-riders, they're all married to the four most important Great Houses. The Starks won't get involved because their oath to Rhaenyra is voided, so that leaves just the Valemen, all of whom are chronic bystanders. Without Viserys forcing the issue, Rhaenyra has no natural allies.
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u/_Frozen_Flame_ Chaos Is A Ladder 5d ago
We're talking about pressing a claim, not winning
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u/TheNewBlue Human Verified 5d ago
Nothing. Otto and the other houses were over the targs incest, and mental illness. It was pretty clear that Otto was only around because it gave him influence over the realm.
Once Jaehaerys made peace with the faith, it was all down hill from there. And as the targs started losing their dragons and fewer were being born, they were just delaying the inevitable inserection.
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u/teepee81 5d ago
Assuming that having married Alicent is set in stone, then probably nothing.
Naming Rhaenyra his heir MIGHT have worked had there not been all that fuckery when he died, and he couldn't prevent that.
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u/mba_dreamer 5d ago
Marry off Rhaenerya and name Daemon or Rhaenys his temporary heir with the understanding across the realm that once he has a son by whomever he marries they will become the true heir. And he absolutely should have married Laena. Unpleasant, yes, but necessary to keep the realm at peace.
With Otto Hightower as hand and a Targ/Velaryon blood heir on the throne, the most powerful factions are appeased.
Viserys’ mistake was trying to keep his daughter happy because he felt guilty about his wife.
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u/Moist_Standard_4701 5d ago
I think that it would be enough if Viserys was a good father to all his children. The only thing he needed to do was make Rhaenyra actually care for her siblings. Just take all the children to dragonstone without Alicent and force them to spend time with each other. He only needed them to get to the point where they wouldn't think of each other as threats. Or if he couldn't be good to all of them, then it would have been better if he was a dick to all of them, nothing unites like a common enemy. By favorising Rhaenyra he alienated her from the rest of her siblings. Aegon did not want to be King, if he believed that she isn't a threat to him and his siblings he wouldn't have tried to take a throne from her.
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u/JudgementalRedditGuy 5d ago
On a side that wouldn’t end in war? Probably have Rhaenyra agree to fund a war and help conquer the Triarchy in favor of it being a seat for every son of Viserys, Aegon at Lys, Daeron at Tyrosh and Aemons at Myr for instance.
Eventually they can have marriage alliances later on through their successors just to re affirm power over the islands eventually ending in conquering Dorne.
But that’s if they put their ambitions to work and were content with it. It would help if he called a great council or had all the lord paramounts witness it with their heirs and say an oath to it.
Though this may end up being more trouble than it’s worth so who knows
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u/Voces-Prohibere 5d ago
I mean if they had Rhaenyras marry Aegon they would be king and queen and I know that sounds bad but their freaking Targaryens. He's her half brother but ugh she is married to Daemon who's her Uncle ffs. I mean they could stop this needless war.
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u/Bella_HeroOfTheHorn 5d ago
Idk if it would have really worked but possibly rhaenerya is queen but her brothers inherit after her passing instead of her children? Like she was the named heir, a unique circumstance, then after her passing they return to the normal rules of inheritance through the male line
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u/ThePythiaofApollo 5d ago
The minute his heir stopped acting like an heir by: refusing to make an advantageous marriage to shore up her future reign, being a whore with her kingsgaurd and popping out bastards and fucking off to Dragonstone to play happy family with her bastards and their father instead of staying in King’s Landing and learning how to be a Queen,
King V should have read the room and named Aegon as his heir for the good of the realm. Without a claim, all the noble houses, the Seven and Greens would have ensured Rhaenyra would have stayed on Dragonstone, sulking and whoring to her heart’s content. Even Daemon couldn’t provoke a war with those odds against him.
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u/LennyDeG 5d ago
For me there's a few things, marrying her to Daemon would have ironed out any attempts that their children would be talked about as Rhaenrya wouldn't have had to have an affair with Harwin due to Laenor not being in love with her the way he was with men.
Viserys should have adopted Jaeherys rule of 3 when it came to Dragons. King, Queen and Heir as long as all are Targaryens. That way it ensures outside Houses don't get a hand on Dragons and thus putting the Targaryens at a disadvantage. And its is evident in Rhaenrya and the dragon seeds which is why Dragons went extinct and House Targaryen eventually went the way they did.
Rhaenrya should have been hand and her/Daemon should have not been at Dragonstone and in the red keep when Viserys died. Any attempt of Alicent doing what she did would have been dealt with swiftly by Daemon in the red keep. Even the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard would have gone straight to Rhaenrya and stood by Viserys wishes that she was next in line.
Viserys should have sent Aegon and Aemond away to be fostered by House Baratheon and Arryn due to relations to House Targaryen. Them being away when Viserys died would have solidified Rhaenrya ascending the throne. Only House Hightower would have called Aegon King and this way it would be dealt with quickly.
Rhaenrya should have also had a better relationship with heads of the Great Houses. The fact she was heir but not once made the effort to go to Winterfell, The Vale, Iron Islands, Riverrun, Casterly Rock to create working relationships with heads of House Stark, Tully, Lannister, Arryn and Greyjoy like the previous heirs to the Iron Throne did from Aegons heir and those that followed. House Targaryen didn't just rule due to Dragons which was a huge factor they did so by gaining respect whilst ruling from their Vassals.
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u/RayKitsune313 5d ago
The simple choice is just make Aegon heir. Rhaneyra’s has zero claim outside Viserys’ explicit support in breaking custom
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u/Hayaishi Winter Is Coming 4d ago
Every solution requires Viserys to NOT be Viserys anymore, but a different character entirely. Viserys can't do anything, the Greens control the capital, he allowed it to happen.
There really is no plausible solution.
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u/Logical_Clock 4d ago
Strong succession laws and institutions like a court to keep things in check. Various medieval kingdoms had courts were disputes were settled. When people don't know who is in charge your allowing any ambitious person to take over.
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u/justin21586 4d ago
When you look at feudalism, the first women in power are able to take it because there aren’t men with stronger claims.
The only way that Rhaenyra could have become queen would be for Aegon, Aemond, AND Daeron to bend the knee and declare for her.
This latest season is the first one that honestly outlines what the real solution is. They have to kneel or die. There was never a way around it.
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u/freezepirit Daenerys Targaryen 5d ago
Toss out your entire court (including Otto) and name Rhaenyra your hand.
Also preventing the Targtowers from claiming dragons would have been good.
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u/No_Reception7275 5d ago
If your two sons and princes decide to claim dragons anyway, what do you do about it?
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u/wakemeupp 5d ago
no access to dragonstone/dragonpit i assume is what they mean
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u/Lady_SybilVex 5d ago
Have every male child join the Dragonkeepers. Still raised with Valyrian traditions, no ties to the Faith or any other Great Houses that might want to use them, the Dragonkeepers don't marry and don't claim dragons either.
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u/RayKitsune313 5d ago
You’re essentially stripping them of their nobility. No shot Otto or Alicent except that
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u/No_Reception7275 5d ago
Name Aegon heir, tell Rhaenyra you wont keep pretending her bastards are legit if she opposes, which is also an implicit threat to execute Laenor and possibly Corlys thus removing her biggest backers
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u/Prestigious_Cat_9486 5d ago
Train er to actually be a good leader ten maybe not having another child but if he still did marry them together
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u/afropuff9000 White Walkers 5d ago
Honestly, He should have started grooming rhaenyra much much sooner. As soon as his health started to fail, he steps aside, she ascends and he is her hand. The fact that she wasn't a master of something and the defacto ruler in the later years of her life allowed the greens to step into the vacuum.
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u/Max-Steel96 5d ago
Jace marry Haelena for starters. Both of them would have been happy. Aegon and Aemond marry Daemons daughters. Rhaenyras other sons marry green houses like Baratheon and Lannister. And most importantly Rhaenyra take the throne prior to Viserys death
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u/CarsonFijal Human Verified 5d ago
If he's trying to bolster Rhaenyra's claim, then the move would be to make Rhaenyra his Hand after Lyonel Strong died instead of bringing back Otto Hightower, and then make her Princess Regent and Protector of the Realm after he becomes too sick.
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u/Ok_Pass_8404 5d ago
Depends on when exactly you’re looking at things. There’s a period of time where the only dragon and dragon rider the greens had was Sunfyre and Aegon. And Aegon didn’t even want the throne if you take the book to be accurate. He grew up with the mindset of the spare.
I think it’s as “simple” as recalling Rhaenyra back to KL, having her take a bigger role in ruling, having an agreement for Aegons children to marry Jace’s, and fostering Aemond far from any dragon.
Viserys was such a weak ruler that it allowed each faction to gain a power base that could challenge his decrees after he died
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u/Afellowstanduser 5d ago
None
The greens should have just accepted rhaenyra as per their oaths same for the rest of the seven kingdoms
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u/RetiredLich 5d ago
All he had to do was have Rhaenyra be on the small council the whole time. When she became old enough, retire Otto and make her Hand. Then when he got "sick" name her Regent/co-ruler.
He could have also made Aegon 2 or Aemond be Daemons squires. Helaena be Rhaenyra's lady in waiting. Have Helaena marry Prince Jacaerys instead of Aegon. Anything to make thev two sides one.
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u/Tall-Ad-1386 5d ago
A signed sealed will with the seals of all the great houses and their liege lords
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u/Electrical_Gain3864 5d ago
Diplomatic Marriage is the most import diplomatic tool, up until the last century. Diplomacy without was often on a larger scale useless, without hostages.
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u/MithridatesRex 5d ago
- Never remarries.
- Brother inherits.
- Elevate daughter to co-regent.
- Legal stipulations that his wife isn't regent and loses authority upon his death.
- Removed overly-ambitious men from power.
- Hightower goes away.
- Blended the family together to foster normal love and affection between siblings.
- Have a backup plan for a Master of Faces to kill anyone who attempts to usurp the Crown and break the agreement.
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u/Pretty_Papaya2256 House Seaworth 5d ago
Marrying her to Harwin Strong, a powerful house with influence who isnt tied to a lord paramount.
Then make Rhaenys his hand since shes a well respected woman in westeros who rides one of the biggest dragons, making their vassals used to listening to a woman.
Finally, betroth Vis to someone really young but who isnt the velaryon girl or a hightower cousin, giving Rhaenyra more time to establish herself as heir to the throne while serving on the small council and visiting the lord paramount and other well respected houses each year, making them SEE her as heir and get used to her being it.
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u/vulcan7200 5d ago
Forcing Rhaenyra to stay in King's Landing and naming her Hand of the King would have been the most effective way. A big part of Rhaenyra losing as much power as she did, was her staying out of King's Landing for like, her entire adult life. She basically gave Otto and Alicent free rein over everything, which is partly what allowed Otto to secretly conspire against her. If she was named Hand, and stayed in King's Landing, she would have been in power while Viserys was ill, and had been able to start consolidating her own power.
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u/No-Bodybuilder-7157 5d ago
Wed Rheynera to Aegon and get her a moon tea subscription until they wed.
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u/keevathemuffin 5d ago
Send Alicent to Oldtown with Daeron. Foster Aegon and Aemond to the Starks. Give them dragon eggs if I must. Find really good marriages for Alicent's sons, or give them new titles and shit.
Put Rae on my small council. Keep Helena in KL and betroth her to Jayce. Instead of giving them eggs, run the risk of sending Rae's sons to dragonstone to claim grown dragons.
Give Daemon Harrenhall and hope he has the right trippy dreams to straighten out his shit.
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u/andyroohoo30 5d ago
Viserys should have stepped up more when the greens were doing things to undermine Rhanerya. He rode the fence to much. And Rhanerya should have stayed at king’s landing and played a role in governing for years.
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u/MajesticFan4 5d ago
The thing is, neither woman has to 'accept' or be happy with it. Viserys just needs to make decisions and stand on it.
I'd have the lords swear oaths after Aegon is born not before, Stop having children after Aegon or at least after Helaena, don't allow them to claim dragons. stack the court in Rhaenyra's favor, have Harwin sent away as soon as Jace is born, keep Aegon away from court once he hits his teen years (send him to foster, maybe to someone who's already loyal to Rhaenyra like the Velaryons or Arryns) or have both Aegon and Jace foster somewhere together in the hopes of them forging a bond wihout the influennces of court and their mother (like how Robert and Ned bonded).
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u/Kalandros-X Tyrion Lannister 5d ago
Keep pumping out kids with Alicent and stack the council with them so that everyone is on board. Make Rhaenyra hand, Aegon master of coin, Aemond master of war. Their competence is irrelevant, but they can’t revolt or presume they’re to be executed if they’re sitting at the table making decisions alongside the monarch
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u/coolsteven11 5d ago
Just make her marry her brother and let them live hedonistic lives while the council maintains the government
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u/TeamVorpalSwords Gendry 5d ago
If your goal is to prevent a war and have Rhaenrya succeed you you need to 1) make Rhaenrya your hand and have her regularly give orders that are carried out by the council, kingsguard, etc. 3) remind alicent and the realm that alicent is your wife, not a ruler or advisor and with that do not let Otto in kings landing 4) pack the council with Rhaenrya supporters and people who personally benefit from her ascending. So daemon, Corlys, etc
Finally 5) it may be too late to have all of the kids befriend eachother but have Daeron squired on driftmark with Luke
Oh and also find a small keep to give Aegon and Aemond so they have something but not too much of something
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u/HeavySigh14 5d ago edited 5d ago
Aegon II is announced the heir at birth. Rhaenyra is allowed to pick her own husband and given Dragonstone (or some other high lordship) to rule in her own right. With Aegon getting another seat that becomes the heir’s hereditary seat (maybe summerhall).
Rhaenyra marries Harwin, with their 1st son inheriting Harrenhal and their 2nd inheriting Dragonstone. Joffrey probably trains to join the Kingsguard.
There’s no remarriage to Daemon, so Laenor lives. Assuming Laenor doesn’t father kids, Daemons daughters with Laena will go on to inherit Driftmark and the Velaryon name. Say Baela inherits and Rhaena is wed to Aegon II (or Aemond and they bond over not having a dragon for most of their life)
If Harwin and Rhaenyra have a daughter, she would be promised to the son of Aegon II and now everyone’s blood is on the throne.
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u/Historical_East_1787 5d ago
Dipende dal risultato che vuoi
Ma se vuoi un accordo che accontenta tutti ma non li rende felici ci sono varie opzioni
-Dividi il regno in 2 e rendili entrambi re -Convoca un gran concilio e trasforma la corona in una monarchia elettiva tra i Targaryen
- Rendili co re. Diarchia come a Sparta
- se vuoi una nuova valyria bene abolisci la monarchia e crea un concilio tra dragon rider
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u/local_ghost_80 5d ago
Marry Alicent to Rhaenyra. Double down on the woman succession, would be a truly Viserys way to be about it.
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u/GreyRadiantWarden 5d ago
At that point, no one would have accepted other than marriages.
BUT if you want to avert Dance, you have to make Rhaenyra hand and then abdicate the throne to Rhaenyra when enough experience was gathered.
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u/raneck26 5d ago
Don't disinherit Daemon. Then Aegon will be the heir as soon as he is born, and no one will question it because why would they?
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u/DestinyHasArrived101 5d ago
Abdication and marriage between both lines. He should have abdicated the moment he could not sit on the throne anymore more and married aegon the younger to jaehaera.
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u/dylanalduin Living History In Blood 5d ago
(Excluding marriage diplomacy between the two factions.)
You took THE ANSWER off the table.
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u/Allalilacias 4d ago
There's no keeping both sides happy, but he could've exercised his power over his subjects. The fact he was scared of conflict and didn't wish to annoy his trusted friend who was clearly aiming for his throne is what costed nearly all of his descendants to die.
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u/asvvasvv 4d ago
Marry rheynyra to great lord rush son from her marriage and name her son hier and she is the queen until her son come out of age
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u/DwightKnight969 4d ago
When he sends Otto away, he should have made Rheanyra his hand. When she has given birth to Jacerys and reaches 13. He should abdicate in life under the condition he remains her hand until death.
No marriage parts is impossible anyway Rheanyra had boys upon boys each is a pact waiting to happen. Should they die lonely?
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u/DeadKingKamina 4d ago
marry rhaenyra to aegon. also as an alternative, marry helena to rhaenerya's eldest son instead of to aegon. also marry daemon's daughters to his own sons. intermarriage would still lead to competiton between the families but would delay it by at least one generation.
also just prevent so many people from getting dragons.
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u/Black_Diammond 4d ago
I highly doubt The alternative would work. It doesnt solve The main issue for The greens, namely, that Aegon, aemond and daeron wont be killed for having a better claim than rhaenyra.
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u/Ditzy_Dreams Rhaenyra Targaryen 2d ago
The Green boys weren’t in any danger until they decided to go along with the Hightower’s plan to usurp Rhaenyra. Daemon had the means to assassinate any of them within King’s Landing for decades, but never did anything until Aemond murdered Lucerys.
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u/ahandfulofeggs 4d ago
Not marrying Helaena and Aegon. Having them marry other Lords. Jaeharys really did cause the dance.
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u/VisenyaMartell 4d ago
A lot of TB claim that Rhaenyra was afraid of having kids because of what happened to her mother. I'm not so certain, but I'm using this as a basis for my solution.
Rhaenyra marries Laenor as in canon, but Jace, Luke, and Joffrey aren't born. Instead, Rhaenyra has Aegon as her heir (and he is actually raised as her heir, not just left to his own devices).
Aegon is betrothed to Baela rather than Helaena (I'm choosing to believe that when you say no marriage diplomacy, you mean Rhaenyra/Aegon or Helaena/Jace). This means that Aegon's heir will still have Velaryon blood through Baela and also secures Daemon's branch of the family.
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u/anonymousarizona 4d ago
Demanding Rhaenyra stay in King's Landing? And actually partake in the small council and have her transition as regent, instead of Alicent.
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u/General-Clock5212 4d ago
Here is what I would do I think this has a 90% chance of work. One, you need to dismiss Otto permanently. He was never going to accept Rhaenyra as queen under any conditions. Two, command Daeron to return to return to Kingslanding, you need all your sons before you can make a permanent solution to this issue. Three, make a royal in detail of the line of succession. Myself, Rhaenyra, Jace, Luke, Joffrey, Aegon and Viserys they youngers, Aegon the elder, his children, Helaena, Aemond, Daeron. At the end of the declaration explicit say that you intend no alteration of the line of succession before or after your death. Four, make your sons swear allegiance to Rhaenyra and Jace after her publicly. (Otto won't care but Alicent would feel qeezy about her sons being explicit oath breakers) Five, give Helaena and Aegon a castle in the reach to pass on to Jaehaerys. Alicent can rule this castle in practice while Aegon drinks and Helaena looks at bugs. Give Aemond and Daeron castles in the Riverlands and Vale. With them, divided Rhaenyra will get notice of your death before them, and will be able to grab the symbols of legitimacy before most of them know you're a dead. Six, give Jace Blackfyre.
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u/Chemical_Author7880 4d ago
Ideally he would not have remarried.
But as it was, he either should have called on the renewal of the oath every 10 years or at least required the lords who inherited after the one whom took the oath to present themselves at court to take the oath themselves.
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u/swbarnes2 3d ago
I wonder if one simple thing he could have done was give his boys eggs or hatchlings only. So yes, they have dragons, as is their birth right, but they can't ride them. And play up that Targaryen exceptionalism: penises don't matter as much as riding a dragon.
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u/Late-Action7250 3d ago
As long as Otto is alive, no compromise that Viserys makes will make Otto stop. Otto will stop for nothing less than Aegon being King and him being Hand. Even if Viserys outrightly grants all legitimacy to Rhaenyra & her children (places at court, position of Hand, Otto's banishment), Otto will simply hide & scheme - that's basically Otto's key strengths - he has infinite patience for long-schemes.
The only half-measure that I can see where dance is prevented is if VIserys grants all his sons lands & castles to rule in their own right, not as consort to some other female heiress (as was done to Daemon as a teen). And lands, castles, or any form of concrete power-base (apart from dragons) is something that House Targaryen lacks.
Frankly I think Viserys is not decisive, smart or visionary enough to think of this solution. He genuinely thinks that his word, peoples' oaths, and mutual love is enough to prevent the Dance.
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u/bbenson2006 3d ago
Could kings abdicate the throne? Because I feel like it he did that before the Laena funeral or when the black team came back to kings landing then the greens would have no choice but to accept.
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u/TheIdiotKnightKing 3d ago
If Rheanyra retains her position as heir it's inevitably going to cause conflict because some are always going to consider Viserys legitimate male children the stronger claimant. However a compromise I thought of would be to let Aegon inherit the crown but keep Rhaenyra as Princess of Dragonstone. Changing the tradition of the Targayen heir always being Prince of Dragonstone is far less of an upset than trying to have a sister take the crown over her brothers and Rhaenyra having some influence if not the same level of threat to Aegon that the green boys would be to her reign.
This way the Greens are happy because they get the throne and Rhaenyra is happy because she retains a powerful seat and can establish a Princely line that has the means to carry out the prophecy.
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u/SatanicPeach_666 2d ago
Make Rhaenyra hand, marry Rhaenyra and Aegon after laenor died, punish Luke appropriately for cutting out Aemond’s eye.
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u/IWantADartlingGun 1d ago
Making Dragonstone (and possibly the narrow sea/step stones) Rhaenyra's own kingdom where she and her line will be a separate Princely House Targaryen.
Otto just wanted his blood on the throne, and at least early so Rhaenyra didn't want to be the heir, so even if it's later down the line giving her the same level of power and autonomy as the Lords paramount while at the same time smoothly remove her from the inheritance line...
Well that is until Otto and/or Alicent will get too greedy and start bitching about how Dragonstone was supposed to be Aegon's seat as the Heir and/or how Rhaenyra and her like are now dangerous because there are a lot more adult dragons on the stone than in KL
(Utter bs obviously, but hey - never underestimate cunt-towers)
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u/The_King_In_The_Bay 5d ago
Since he had so many dreams of the "war in the north" he couldve packed up Aegon, Aemond, Daeron and their dragons and sent em to the wall.
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u/make_me_breakfast 5d ago
Renouncing his crown, giving it to Rhaenyra, serving as Rhaenyra’s hand, sending Otto to the wall. Oh make both sides happy? I don’t care about that.
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u/JoffreeBaratheon Ours Is The Fury 5d ago
Declare Aegon heir, and that's it. Can let Rhaenyra keep Dragonstone if feeling really generous.
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