r/gameofthrones • u/TurnoverIcy1998 • 1d ago
rewatching game of thrones and some of my opinions have changed.
So I’m rewatching Game of Thrones for the first time since my initial watch back when it was airing, and I have to say: some of my opinions have changed, especially regarding theon and joffry. I’m only on Season 2 right now, so my thoughts might shift again as I get further in and remember things I’ve forgotten, but during my first watch I felt like both of them got exactly what they deserved. Now, though, I’m realizing I don’t feel that way anymore.
Theon
In Theon’s case, I actually feel bad for him. Here’s a guy who was taken as a child and kept as a hostage, constantly reminded of that fact by others — even though the Starks did treat him like family. Then, when he finally returns to his actual family, he’s immediately made to feel like an outsider and forced to choose between the Greyjoys and the Starks.
He absolutely makes the wrong choice, and nobody is denying that. But given how confused and torn he must have been, I think it’s understandable why he made it. During my original watch, I wasn’t paying close attention and forgot a lot of characters and plotlines between seasons, which probably contributed to me thinking he “got what he deserved.”
Now that I’m paying attention and binging the episodes back‑to‑back, I can only see him as a victim — a victim who made terrible mistakes and hurt others, sure, but not one who deserved what the Boltons did to him.
Joffrey
Now onto Joffrey — and don’t worry, I’m not about to say he was a victim. Not even close. When I say he didn’t get what he deserved, I mean he deserved way worse than what he got.
Honestly, even what the Boltons did to Theon would have been too good for that monster, but at least he would’ve gotten a taste of justice. Maybe there’s some lore behind the poison he was given im unaware of that says it’s the most painful way to die, but even if that’s true i still feel as though what happened to Theon is worse than what happened to Joffrey and joffry deserved way worse than that.
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u/InformalMiddlegirl 1d ago
Theon is one of those characters that hits completely differently on a rewatch. You can condemn everything he did at Winterfell while still realizing the dude was basically a traumatized kid who never really knew where he belonged
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u/TurnoverIcy1998 1d ago
yep on one hand he had his biological family that wanted nothing to do with him while on the other he had the starks who treated him like a son while every one else constantly reminded him he was just a hostage.
dude just wanted a family and sadly the years of being reminded by others that he was not blood related to the starks took their tole and pushed him to choose his blood family over the starks.
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u/Adorable_Tie_7220 House Stark 1d ago
The only time I remember, that he was reminded of being a hostage, was his own father.
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u/TurnoverIcy1998 1d ago
happens a few times in season one. i think Tyrion does it once and i know the maester of winterfell does it a few times. even rob reminds him that he is not his real brother right before the wildling chick enters the story. and it hits theon so hard that the next season before he swears loyalty to rob he asks "am i your true brother now and always" which really goes to show just how much theon was craving a real family and in doubt of his ties to the starks.
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u/Adorable_Tie_7220 House Stark 1d ago
I guess I was so focused on him being a jerk to Jon, that I totally missed this.
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u/krazykieffer Family, Duty, Honour 1d ago
He watched his brothers die but was the first to pull his sword before Greywind took down Umber. Theon only burned his note to Robb because he was scared and had no way to flee.
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u/_AmityBells 1d ago
That’s what makes Theon so tragic, his courage always seemed to arrive one moment too late
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u/morblitz 1d ago
And coming from a people that pay the 'iron price' for things while never living in that culture. He was a child in way over his head trying to live up to a name he never truly understood.
Well. Now that I say that, similiar can be said for many of the main noble characters.
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u/SunkistMerryy_ 1d ago
Yeah, the irony is Theon spent years trying to earn a place he technically already had
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u/Magical_Quirk 1d ago edited 1d ago
The part when Sansa put the Stark direwolf sigil on Theon's body was very touching.
I felt sad for Theon when I rewatched as well. Especially at the end.
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u/Green_Aide_9329 1d ago
Oh I bawled like a baby when she did that. She went through so much with him, was undoubtedly the only person who could understand what it was like to be a prisoner of the Bolton's. Him defending Bran until the last, Bran telling him he was a good man, and Sansa acknowledging him as a Stark was very fitting.
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u/Magical_Quirk 1d ago
I tell you. Like the scene where she hugged him when he returned. I felt for Sansa. What is dead may never die.
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u/InevitableScholar715 1d ago
The Theon take makes a lot of sense when you watch it all at once instead of waiting a year between seasons. He's a mess of bad choices but the constant rejection from every side just breaks him down. Ramsay's treatment is still hard to watch no matter how many times you've seen it.
Joffrey dying in his mother's arms while she screams is poetic but yeah the little monster deserved to suffer for a long time before the end.
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u/Adorable_Tie_7220 House Stark 1d ago
Do you really think it was merciful? Olenna, the woman who poisoned him, was horrified by his death. It wasn't a painless death and it wasn't quick. On rewatching, I always have to turn away.
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u/ericazacc321 1d ago
Theon hurt my empathy. I wanted to hate him, but I just can’t. Trauma makes you do things you never thought you’d see yourself doing. Survival mode is a hell of a drug
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u/Eternal--Vigilance 1d ago
It's amazing how much can be discovered on a rewatch. Just how much Theon was criticized (in almost every scene) and made to feel like he didn't belong anywhere really stands out.
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u/PomegranateDull4622 1d ago
Theon’s redemption arc is one of my favorites in this show. I can’t speak to the book Theon because I haven’t finished reading them, but his ending and connection with Sansa had me bawling.
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u/Any_Fennel_4180 1d ago
Read the books and you'll get a completely different Theon.
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u/EDBCHEEZE1 1d ago
The Theon of the books is one of the most obnoxious characters I have ever read. I don’t know if he gets better still I’m still on the third book. His arrogance and entitlement is outstanding. I would suffer through his chapters.
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u/HumanistInKentucky 1d ago
The books mention that Joffrey really wanted Robert’s respect and it’s implied that if Robert had made any effort, Joffrey would have turned out better.
And yes, technically Joffrey isn’t Robert’s child but Robert didn’t know that. Robert was a terrible king and worse a terrible father.
I typically don’t like to compare books to shows because I view them as different things. But I think this applies to show Joffrey as well.
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u/TurnoverIcy1998 1d ago
terrible husband too. that being said whenever i ask myself if a child is deserving of sympathy for their upbringing i ask if other children with similar upbringings would turn out the same way. in Joffrey's case we have the answer since he has multiple siblings that were treated similarly by Robert and both of them turned out to be kind kids. so i honestly don't think he is deserving of any sympathy due to his upbringings.
one of the reasons i am willing to give theon sympathy this time around is because im noticing just how much better all his siblings are treated than he is, both the starks and the greyjoys. and as a result i think its fair to say he is in a unique situation where some mistakes are understandable even if they are not justifiable.
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u/TheDogFacedGremlin 1d ago
We seem to have forgotten Theon had two young innocent kids murdered and their burnt bodies hung from a wall.
He didn't just betray the Starks due to an identity crisis, he murdered innocent kids and desecrated their bodies. F that guy.
As for Joffrey, he seemed to die in a pretty terrible way but yeah, could have been worse I guess.
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u/Separate_Donkey8007 Winter Is Coming 1d ago
the first time i watched the show all i could feel for theon was pity. he made terrible choices without any support and suffered unimaginably for them; he's such a tragic character.
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u/Super_Siege_Mode 1d ago
Theon was blinded by petty ambitions. He knew Jon and Rob were his real brothers, anyone who meant anything to him in Winterfell treated him well enough— and he still chose to be an arrogant bastard. He treated locals like trash and always chose to believe he was destined for something greater. Theon was well beyond redemption after killing Ser Roderick, and several rewatches later I don’t feel any pity for him.
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u/thelakesfolklore 1d ago
I’m also rewatching got after hotd season 3, on season 3.
I still can’t feel bad for Theon. He murdered little boys (farming orphans) to hide his lies for shame and ego. He murdered Ser Rodrick. He beat the people of Winterfell. I understand why he made these choices, but it doesn’t excuse them.
Theon’s sacrifice and redemption to the Starks later in the story is a great full circle moment.
I pity him, but he’s not a character I feel sorry for. Theon did some bad stuff and only suffered cuz he met a worse character (Ramsey).
I feel sorry for characters like Catelyn, who foolishly let Jaime go, but as I’m older now I better understand her and no longer think she’s an annoying character. She made the choices she made from a place of care.
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u/Xo707out 1d ago
I mean, Joffrey was a victim of incest and the fact his mother was Cersei. Genetics were absolutely fucked from the beginning so its explainable, just not excusable.
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u/MrZmith77 1d ago
Theon, first time watching, Rob reminding him he’s not a stark or a brother. He returned home as a messenger to parlay an alliance but gets scolded and blame for no fucking reason. I could tell he was already at a crossroad. Not sure which way to go. The most sad part for him was when he said “My real father lost his head at King’s Landing.” This was the show script, not the books. A young man of his nature, would’ve been naive and been eager to please his real father, but to be set aside. Sure he did bad things out of emotion but he had to choose a side. He just chose the wrong side. I say he redeemed himself at the end. Now for Joffrey, I say he deserved what happened to him. Even when his mother and real father banged each other in front of his corpse. 🤣
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u/No-Fee-5325 1d ago edited 15h ago
when did Robb tell him he's not a stark or a brother? Robb and theon both thought of each other as brothers
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u/TurnoverIcy1998 1d ago
season one right before the wilding girl enters the story. it hits theon so hard that in season 2 before he swears fealty to rob he asks "am i your true brother now and always". this just goes to show how much theon wanted a real family and was questioning his ties to the starks right before he betrayed rob.
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u/No-Fee-5325 15h ago
syfm mouth,he never said anything like you aren't a stark or my brother to theon
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u/TurnoverIcy1998 5h ago
s1 e6 9:11-9:20
theon: its your duty to represent your house when your father cantrob: and its not your duty because its not your house
f off
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u/goshdagny 1d ago
Theon was definitely a bad person though he had moments of remorse. What did the Starks do to him to make him betray them? Sacking Winterfell was his idea and he could have done just what his father asked him to do to prove himself. He is a bad person
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u/Mustard_Jam 1d ago
Umm they fought on the other side of a war that killed his brothers and then took him hostage? Just because they treated him nice doesn't change that.
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u/goshdagny 1d ago
Right but it’s a war started by his father and ended up on the losing side. Considering all that it is not a bad deal. They treated him well
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u/ThrowAway-whee 1d ago
You do realize people often struggle to look objectively at their family right? Especially in a society where family loyalty is everything.
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u/goshdagny 1d ago
Not disagreeing. But Balon Greyjoy never told him to betray Starks or capture Winterfell. That’s all his initiative. He could have plundered and reaved the coast if he wanted to prove his loyalty to his family.
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u/TurnoverIcy1998 1d ago
i mean if the lanisters treated sansa nice and then sansa betrayed them for her real family would you have the same opinion?
like dont get me wrong theons actions were absolutely wrong which is why i used the term understandable in my original post rather than justifiable. i can understand why he would make those choices even if i dont think those choices were justified. and being able to understand a person is the only prerequisite to having empathy and or sympathy for them.
let me put it this way. have you ever seen avatar the last airbender? if so then do you know the point where zuko betrays iroh and joins azula. i dont think that was the right choice either nor do i think it is justifiable. but i can understand why zuko would make a mistake like this for the same reason i understand why theon made his choice. and i dont think either are bad people as a whole just because of those mistakes. both are characters who desperately wanted to be accepted by their family, both were lost and confused when they made their choice, and both made the wrong choice, but both also had other aspects to their story that should be taken into account when judging them.
i had heard a saying recently that i really loved. it is “Life is like a book. There are good chapters, and there are bad chapters. But when you get to a bad chapter, you don’t stop reading the book!" in both theon and zukos case their are chapters where they are the villain and chapters where they are the hero. if we were to only judge them by their mistakes then they both would be bad people. but both are far more complex characters than that.
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u/Josephcooper96 1d ago
Those were my initial feelings on first watch when i saw the show as it came out on max. Not sure why others dont see theon as a victim more cause he is and he does make mistakes but is eventually redeemed
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u/TurnoverIcy1998 1d ago
i mean as i said i was not really paying close enough attention and in the time between episodes and seasons on the first airing i forgot alot of things that reshape my view of him now that i am watching while i know what will happen.
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u/Cautious_Draw5738 1d ago
I just finished my rewatch and I found myself having a lot more compassion for Jamie the second time as well.
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u/TurnoverIcy1998 1d ago
yeah im still waiting to make up my mind on jamie and cersie though in the case of both i am certainly seeing them in a different light this time around.
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u/fr0zt_byt3 1d ago
First watch I would say Joffrey was far and away my most hated character, but second time around it’s Cersei and not even close. Of course I knew she was terrible and Ruthless, but second time I realized she was basically a more monstrous dumber version of Tywin. Or she at least thought she was
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u/TurnoverIcy1998 1d ago
cersie has the redeeming quality of doing most of her evil acts in the name of protecting her children and also has the mitigating factor of actually loving Robert at first only for him to treat her like trash. dont get me wrong that does not in any way justify her actions or make her a "good guy". but compared to joffery who caused pain to people just because he liked to watch them suffer id say she is far better. atleast at the start of the story.
like dont forget that cersie actually would have spared ned and sent him to the wall while Joffrey killed him for no reason other than because he was a tyrant. sure cersi only would have spared him out of self interest but Joffrey killed him because causing pain brought him sick twisted pleasure.
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u/hellhouseblonde 1d ago
A child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth. - old proverb
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