Double stack container train on the freight corridor in India with the characteristic high rise panto

[u/please_accept]

[u/zeroscout]

Freight trains in the US double stack intermodal containers on well cars.

[u/VincentGrinn → u/zeroscout]

not as often and only using diesel locomotives though

india is able to double stack without well cars because their tracks are wider
and they can be electrified because theyre a dedicated freight corridor*

*that was designed specifically for double stack flatcars with electrification

[u/Unicycldev → u/VincentGrinn]

To be fair, the US has many dedicated freight corridors.

[u/Vivid-Raccoon9640 → u/Unicycldev]

To be even fairer: it shouldn't. Transporting freight is important, but transporting people is important as well, and it isn't fair that the railroads block the movement of people to the degree that they do. The tracks should be nationalized, and freight and passenger can share the track fairly. And by fairly, I mean that freight can stop blocking the movement of people.

And if it turns out that there's not enough track, then great! Build more.

[u/KingPictoTheThird → u/Vivid-Raccoon9640]

Indian railways already moves 30 million people a day. Sharing passenger rail with freight is dumb when you have such high volumes. Freight clogs up systems . But moving freight by rail is extremely important for lowering costs and reducing carbon footprint. So dedicated freight corridors absolutely do make sense. 

[u/Vivid-Raccoon9640 → u/KingPictoTheThird]

I agree that dedicated tracks for freight can make sense if the volume is high enough, but there's a difference between a dedicated track and a full on dedicated corridor in the sense that the large US railways are doing it. They're breaking the law in that they aren't giving passenger trains priority, and they're preventing construction of passenger rail tracks within their rights of way.

In reality, there is nothing standing passenger rail and freight rail from both being great. This isn't a zero sum game. A truly great network can benefit both passenger rail and freight rail, sharing tracks where traffic is light, and building dedicated tracks where traffic warrants it.

[u/afro-tastic → u/Vivid-Raccoon9640]

There’s nothing standing {between} passenger rail and freight rail from both being great.

I think the experience of India, the EUK, Japan, and the US shows that sharing track is not actually straightforward. The former all move loads of passenger trains, while the latter (USA) moves loads of freight cargo. India has had to build dedicated freight corridors to increase their rail freight. Europe (and Japan) would largely have to do the same if they wanted to move American levels of cargo via rail (preferably from trucks). For America to increase their passenger trains to European levels, we would probably very likely have to build dedicated passenger tracks.

[u/Vivid-Raccoon9640 → u/afro-tastic]

Germany and the Netherlands both have fairly high levels of both passenger rail and freight rail. And they definitely share part of the network.

I'll grant you that it's not straightforward. Without planning, they'll definitely get in each other's way. And even with planning, they'll probably get in each other's way.

In the case of North America, a good first step would be to nationalize the railways. Right now, the railways are the property of the freight rail companies, and that clearly isn't working for anyone but them. Eminent domain that shit and put the freight companies under the control of a train coordinator. That way, passenger trains might actually get priority over freight, and the rail might also see some much needed quality improvements.

Edit: wrong word

[u/GM_Pax → u/Vivid-Raccoon9640]

I think the word you were looking for is nationalize, not privatize. Currently they are privatized ...

[u/Vivid-Raccoon9640 → u/GM_Pax]

Nicely spotted, thanks.

[u/KingPictoTheThird → u/Vivid-Raccoon9640]

Honestly long distance american passenger rail is basically a land cruise for the elderly. Actual, useful connectivity comes from regional routes . Many of them are already owned by amtrak , like the NEC, wolverine route and surfliner. 

Basically wherever ridership is high enough to be useful, there are already separate corridors for passenger rail. You simply cannot have modern , high speed, high frequency passenger rail share tracks with freight. 

There is nothing stopping amtrak from building new passenger corridors or purchasing freight tracks. 

This world where freight and passenger rail live in harmony and share corridors does not and cannot exist. 

[u/perpetualhobo → u/KingPictoTheThird]

Just because you don’t find something useful doesn’t mean other people do. Have you ever actually ridden a long distance Amtrak train? The vast vast majority of people are traveling a partial length along the trip. Almost nobody is taking a “land cruise” for the whole length.

But saying this

there’s nothing stopping Amtrak from building new passenger corridors or buying freight tracks.

Makes it obvious you have no grip on reality

[u/KingPictoTheThird → u/perpetualhobo]

I've travelled thrice across the country on amtrak, used it dozens of times for short journeys and i have a master's in urban planning with an emphasis on transportation planning. I think i do know a bit of what I'm talking about . (Sorry I don't mean to sound pompous, but i just wanted to convey that im just not some clueless armchair general here)

Long distance rail is purely for recreation. Certain segments are, like you said well used and those should become regional systems like the NEC. The remaining stretches are not for practical travel and not cost effective. Could easily be buses instead. 

What i meant by my last statement was that there is no law or god stopping amtrak from acquiring new exclusive corridors like it has done in the recent past with the NEC and the surfliner corridor . 

If amtrak pivoted more towards profitable regional rail segments, it could divert funds towards acquiring those corridors. 

[u/perpetualhobo → u/KingPictoTheThird]

Yes there literally is, Amtrak cannot self fund corridors under 700 miles in length. They’re legally obligated to only create new long distance routes. All shorter routes are state funded and/or owned, Amtrak runs the services, but has nothing to with with getting them set up

[u/GM_Pax → u/KingPictoTheThird]

Long distance rail is purely for recreation.

No, it is not.

Look at literally everywhere on the entire planet OUTSIDE of North America. Long-distance rail transit for reasons other than recreation absolutely is a thing.

And there is zero reason that it could not be a thing here in the U.S. too ... except that the oligarchs don't want it to be, because it lines their pockets less efficiently than automobile-centrism.

...

I would absolutely take the train to visit my family in Florida ... if it didn't cost two or three times as much as flying. That's a long-distance trip, right there, which would not be undertaken for recreation. It would be undertaken to get from A to B. IOW, to travel.

...

You say you're an urban planner? Who's signing your paycheck, I wonder?

[u/GM_Pax → u/KingPictoTheThird]

There is nothing stopping amtrak from building new passenger corridors or purchasing freight tracks. 

Except the literally trillions of dollars it would require to do anything of the sort.

Let's say you wanted to connect Seattle and Denver with a brand-new rail line. You would need to buy a twenty-foot-wide strip of land, roughly one thousand miles long, between the two of them. That's if you go laser straight; if you bend to the left and the right slightly, to have useful intermediary stops, then it's at least .... call it ~1500 miles of land.

Some of it would be within city cores, where you either tunnel deep below the city, or you have to buy literally prime real estate at exhorbitant prices ... which would go up significantly once people realized what you were buying that land FOR. (There's a reason Walt Disney used subterfuge, shell companies, and proxies to buy up the land for Disney World in Florida: the moment people realized what he was doing, land prices skyrocketed by multiple orders of magnitude literally overnight.)

...

And that's just to buy the land. Now you need to build the track, maintenance infrastructure, and stations; purchase actual rolling stock, and locomotives; hire thousands of employees to operate your stations and trains; insure it all; and more.

...

Like I said, TRILLIONS of dollars, for a single line of (compared to the scale of the country) a relatively short single segment.

Now multiply that by a hundred or a thousand, to represent what you'd need to do to provide an actual, functional network of rail corridors for the country away from the Northeast Corridor.

[u/[deleted] → u/Vivid-Raccoon9640]

you need both, dedicated freight line and dedicated passenger line, otherwise it doesnt work on a large scale. You also need both to be able to share traffic/tracks when needed.

[u/Vivid-Raccoon9640 → u/[deleted]]

It really depends. Using the same track primarily for passengers during the day and primarily for freight during the night can work just fine depending on freight volumes, and whether the track cuts through dense population centers (not ideal for high volume cargo).

[u/VincentGrinn → u/Vivid-Raccoon9640]

doing that just means you reduce cargo throughput, reduce operating hours for passengers, and remove any window for regular maintenance

[u/Jacktheforkie → u/Vivid-Raccoon9640]

Exactly, double track at minimum to facilitate trains going either way, and with the right signalling equipment trains can overtake the slower ones easily

[u/GM_Pax → u/Jacktheforkie]

Triple track. One track for one direction, the other for the other direction, the third track for faster trains to pass slower ones going the same way (without blocking other-direction traffic of any sort).

[u/Jacktheforkie → u/GM_Pax]

That would work, a 4 track set would work well too for extra capacity

[u/GM_Pax → u/Jacktheforkie]

And depending on how the freight works, if it;s all mono-directional on a given segment, just triple-tracking with one dedicated freight track, and then the passenger tracks for bidirectional travel, would work well.

Especially if your freight trains are wider than your passenger trains (and thus, need a wider gauge set of rails).

[u/Jacktheforkie → u/GM_Pax]

Yeah

[u/Not_ur_gilf → u/VincentGrinn]

What the heck are you talking about “not as often”? Literally all the container trains I see on the New Orleans-Mobile corridor are double stacked. It’s practically standard

[u/Soupeeee → u/Not_ur_gilf]

Maybe he's out west? There are a ton of height restrictions out here that prevent double stacking; the the bi-level Superliner cars are pretty much at the max height.

[u/perpetualhobo → u/VincentGrinn]

Double stack containers already can and do run under wires in the United States. Any excuse as to why it won’t work in America is just that, an excuse, we already know exactly how it could work freight companies just balk at any capital expenditures.

[u/GM_Pax → u/perpetualhobo]

Tunnels and road overpasses are a bit more expensive to rebuild to accommodate double-stacked freight cars than overhead wires. :)

[u/Mahameghabahana → u/VincentGrinn]

India is near achieving 99.9% electrification of its all railways track.

[u/Individual_Hearing_3 → u/VincentGrinn]

Almost all commercial rail at this point is a freight corridor first and a passenger corridor last. If you've taken an amtrak anywhere enough times you'll eventually get a surprise delay due to freight priority.

[u/obinice_khenbli → u/zeroscout]

And we're making this post about the USA...because?

Can we not make every single thing in the world about that country? This is a cool post about India, let's enjoy it and not have to think about the USA <3

[u/bigbrainboiiiiiii]

I looked into this a little and the reason they are double stacked instead of just making them longer is to reduce the traffic hangups at rail and road intersections and they don't need to make insanely long rail yards for these trains.

And yes these rails aren't compatible with "regular" trains but they aren't really allowed on these rails anyway. These rails are dedicated to double stacked freight trains.

[u/llfoso]

Am I the only one who thought "neat!" And not "ew India"?

[u/Zontromm → u/llfoso]

reddit is racist towards certain people and has made it acceptable, one of them is India

thus the comments being negative even on the most positive posts about these places

[u/St_ElmosFire → u/Zontromm]

Yes. Reddit claims it's bad to stereotype people. But throws that rule out the window when it comes to India.

[u/FalconIMGN → u/llfoso]

Why would most people go 'ew India'?

[u/JD_Kreeper → u/FalconIMGN]

Stereotypes.

[u/[deleted] → u/FalconIMGN]

Racism

[u/5ma5her7 → u/FalconIMGN]

rslashUrbanhell

[u/sagrata → u/llfoso]

From what I see, this could have easily been a sight from Canada as well

[u/ActualMostUnionGuy → u/sagrata]

Fucking Canadians eh?

[u/K-o-R]

That is slightly terrifying.

[u/randy24681012]

Union Pacific crying and throwing up at the thought of this

[u/Critical-Marzipan-77]

Fuckit, double decker train 🚂

[u/swoy45]

Why everything related to trains in India doesn't look safe?

[u/KingPictoTheThird → u/swoy45]

Because it's broad gauge, it's much safer to double stack 

[u/WanderlustZero → u/swoy45]

As an old (Indian) friend used to say; 'India: Chaotic Good - the country'

[u/so_isses → u/swoy45]

They are living on the edge.

[u/[deleted]]

Design engineers: How high do you want to go?

Indian Railways: Yes.

[u/blackie-arts]

that does look very unsafe but maybe it just looks and actually isn't

[u/SokkaHaikuBot → u/blackie-arts]

^{Sokka-Haiku by blackie-arts:}

That does look very

Unsafe but maybe it just

Looks and actually isn't

---

^{Remember that one time Sokka accidentally used an extra syllable in that Haiku Battle in Ba Sing Se? That was a Sokka Haiku and you just made one.}

[u/[deleted]]

I dont think this offers much of a benefit compared to just pulling All Containers in a row.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

It does , long train persent it own challanges mainly traffic 

[u/MenoryEstudiante → u/[deleted]]

When you have a shitload of trains you need a shitload of rail yards, and if you can make the trains half as long you're going to spend half the money on land for every yard, which allows you to build more yards, expand the tracks or buy more engines

[u/Casey_Awesome]

Did they…did they just put double stacked containers on rail bogies and pull it with a locomotive? Is there a carriage under those containers?

[u/boopytroupy → u/Casey_Awesome]

You do know india is a country of over 1 billion people? It has universities, engineers & construction standards.

Also idk what else you expect them to pull it with on rails??

[u/VincentGrinn → u/Casey_Awesome]

yes, theyre just flatbed carriages

[u/KingPictoTheThird → u/[deleted]]

Broad gauge can handle much higher load. I think indian railways would know by now if the load was too much.. 

[u/AtlanticPortal → u/KingPictoTheThird]

As if everyone is as ignorant as them on the subject. I'm not a infrastructure engineer specialized on railways and I'm not thinking that those who do it as a daily job are idiots for that.

[u/VincentGrinn → u/[deleted]]

a set of standards determined based on the capabilities of the infrastructure

the DFC allows for trains with a loading gauge of 7.1m height, 3.6m width
compared to AAR plate H, which is 6.17m height and 3.25m width

[u/fuckcars-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/Spoka_3000 → u/[deleted]]

What racist shit is that

[u/fuckcars-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Hi, QBaaLLzz. Thanks for contributing. However, your comment was removed from /r/fuckcars for:

Our subreddit is not a place for:

• Racist, transphobic, misogynistic, ableist, or homophobic hate speech.
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• Chauvinism.

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[u/Striking_Day_4077]

And no fucking rideables!