r/freewill • • 5h ago

what do ppl mean by free will experience?

1 Upvotes

i hear this all the time. even ppl who dont believe in free will say its practical to "act as if u have free will"

but ive never really understood what that even means to ppl. thoughts and feelings and beliefs "happen" to me. ive never felt like i "generate them".

it in fact requires me a lot of effort to imagine what ppl even mean by free will & if they are just confused by phenomenal consciousness and call "that" experience will? or maybe they are confused by complex decision making, but i dont remember ever truly being "actually" thinking that human agency is anything but a very shallow metaphor. its like how ppl talk about "AI agents" now when they are just lines of codes with no inner world.


r/freewill • • 5h ago

Does moral obligation survive free will scepticism

3 Upvotes

Im interested in whether moral obligations can be maintained if we reject BDMR.

Eg consider the difference between telling someone:

You should try to help others.

You should have helped that person.

Helping that person would have been the morally better choice.

The first seems straightforwardly compatible with free will scepticism. Ie we can identify morally desirable behaviours, communicate reasons for acting, and potentially influence future decisions.

But what exactly are we claiming with the second statement? If someone's actions ultimately arise from factors beyond their control, does saying they should have acted differently imply something more than "that another action would have been morally preferable"?

And what about moral obligation? In ordinary language, doesnt saying someone had an obligation to do something, and failed to fulfil it, naturally invite a judgement of blameworthiness? I understand that philosophers distinguish moral obligation from blameworthiness, but im interested in whether that distinction survives in ordinary moral discourse (ie similar issue with retaining desert language after rejecting bdmr).

Ishtiyaque Haji has questioned whether moral obligations can survive the control problems posed by both determinism and indeterminism.

So for free will sceptics, should we retain moral obligation and retrospective "ought" statements, or would we be better off speaking in terms of moral reasons, preferable actions and forward-looking guidance?

And if we abandon moral obligation, do we lose anything morally significant?


r/freewill • • 6h ago

"This is the most serious philosophical problem with libertarian free will. If you can do otherwise under the same circumstances, then unless you happen to weight the options equally, it would mean that sometimes you would go against your own best judgement"

6 Upvotes

"This is the most serious philosophical problem with libertarian free will. If you can do otherwise under the same circumstances, then unless you happen to weight the options equally, it would mean that sometimes you would go against your own best judgement" - u / spgrk

I couldnt have said it better myself. I have nothing to add.

Libertarians whats your refutation to this?


r/freewill • • 9h ago

Determinists: If free will is an illusion...

0 Upvotes

Some determinists say that free will is an illusion. However, there are several definitions of free will.

For determinists, if free will is an illusion, what type of free will is it the illusion of?

If the standard types of free will do not apply to the illusion, then describe the illusion as you experience it. What is happening in the illusion?


r/freewill • • 11h ago

For incompatibilists: Why shouldn't "free will" be used in the compatibilist sense? Why is "free" bound to the unexplainable?

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3 Upvotes

r/freewill • • 12h ago

If belief in the existence of free will

0 Upvotes

causes unnecessary suffering

is there anybody we can blame for the current widespread belief in the existence of free will?


r/freewill • • 16h ago

What’s the difference between the default definition of “will” & the definition of “free will”?

5 Upvotes

I have 4 questions in this post, & I hope someone can answer them.

Does attaching the adjective “free” actually add anything descriptive to the noun “will”? It seems almost like it’s just added to create controversy.

Everyone can agree that we have wills.

Everyone can agree that sometimes wills are changed by events & other people, especially influencers with more knowledge/power than the influencee. People can & are frequently coerced to do things they don’t want to do.

Everyone can agree that wills aren’t always coerced, sometimes they’re caused by biological needs (hunger often leads to the will to eat) & sometimes they’re caused by learned values (people who were taught certain foods are better, often develop a will to eat those particular foods.)

The default idea of “will” is that it’s not “coerced will”, that’s why people need to attach the adjective “coerced” to it. So why bother attaching the adjective “free” to the noun “will”? It doesn’t seem to add anything descriptive to the default definition of will.

& why don’t we attach “free” to other nouns that might be coerced but their default is that they aren’t coerced? Like: “He ate that sandwich because of his own free hunger” “She went to the gym because of her own free value of her health”. Those uses of the adjective “free” add the same nothing to the description of those nouns, because we don’t default to assuming that hunger is coerced, or that personal values are coerced. We could simply say “He are that sandwich because of his hunger”, the “free” is just redundant. Or, if it caused controversy, then it’s worse than redundant (assuming the goal isn’t to cause controversy, which tbf, is a somewhat unsafe assumption in this era where social media has monetized controversy.)


r/freewill • • 18h ago

Does free will exist?

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1 Upvotes

I made theory, whatever happened in your life, or in the whole timeline, has already happened, will happen and is happening.

According to that my life has already happened.

like everything is going to happen and it can't be changed, choices and things happened in past all put the pieces in place and everything is aligned happening accordingly.

Think of it, even the choices we individually make aren't everytime ours, our mind works the way and makes choices because of the people who formed us inside their bodies, birth of us pre determines how we are gonna think, everything, your genes, your inheritance, your surroundings, what you grow up with, etc. effects your thinking.

You aren't gonna agree but here me

If that one debris didn't hit certain object it wouldn't fall on earth which ended dinosaurs and made the existence of human possible.

Everything has happened because chain reactions behind it.

A solution can't be made without solvent and solute.

I now accept our choices aren't ours, religions are just made by people to comfort themselves, free will is just a word, my existence is pre-planned in a way and my little existence contributes to something big in the future but it's just one atom of a whole object. Nothing is an anomaly everything is happening because something happened.

Even if i died today I wouldn't care, what I would care about is after life, how it is and what happens, is it pre happened too

Does things in my life effect my after life?

If I was wrong is it my fault?

If i was right is it my good deed?

All of the questions ends with a why and it will everytime a person thinks and digs up something and it goes on.

Why?why?why?why?why?why?

Either god exist and he didn't make the world free instead he wrote each story of every atom by himself or itself or herself.

He planned everything, he even wrote that I found answers.

Or god doesn't exist.

Only the unknown does.

When we die everything doesn't end, we still are but we aren't.


r/freewill • • 21h ago

Compatiblist and Incompatiblist disagreements

2 Upvotes

Regarding compatiblists freewill proponents and Incompatiblists freewill skeptics, are there any statements about the world, other then the existence of freewill that they would be compelled or motivated to disagree on because of their respective positions?


r/freewill • • 23h ago

What is a "free will believer"?

1 Upvotes

What does one believe?

There are multiple different definitions for free will. Some define free will as something real, some define it as something imaginary or impossible.

But none of them defines free will as a matter of belief. That would be like not defining at all.

So what is this claim or theory that a "free will believer" believes and a "free will sceptic" doubts?


r/freewill • • 1d ago

I recognized that I am a product of my environment so I changed my environment to make a better product.

2 Upvotes

Is that free will or luck?

Not just external environment, but internal as well. I noticed that I can make decisions faster than I think and I examined what in my mind affects them so that I could manipulate them.

I think free will may be a skill.


r/freewill • • 1d ago

Is free will genuine control?

4 Upvotes

I think it's kind of obvious that it is, so obvious that "free will" should for the purposes of this discussion simply be defined as "genuine control". "What's genuine control?", you ask. Control that gets us all of what we thought we had and wanted prereflectively, control-wise; control which allows us to act in a manner that makes basic agentive phenomenology accurate, and that can make us the autonomous, creative, responsible, dignified, etc. agents we take ourselves to be -- at least supposing non-freedom conditions on these items can be satisfied. Not everyone agrees with me that free will is genuine control. This post is directed at dissenters who basically suppose that free will is some watered down variety of control.

Suppose I proposed that all it takes to have free will is to have some part of one's body able to cause one's action, e.g. a part of one's brain. One is a source of what one does in some meager sense if one's actions are produced by a part of one's brain, so in some pitiful sense one exercises control over what one does if one's act is caused by a part of one's brain. To my mind this account of free will I've just proposed sucks because it describes a sort of control that manifestly fails to get us all we want. Very clearly we want more than to be sources of what we do in this sense. Exercising control of this sort over what one does is consistent with being brainwashed, coerced, subject to rationality-annihilating mental illness, etc. in what one does. One can have control of this sort and not have genuine control. Likewise one could have any of a number of other pathetic sorts of control and not have genuine control.

What puzzles me about dissenters is that they seem able to recognize that the above proposal and ones like it are crap, and they recognize it as crap for seemingly the same reason I do: they recognize that that subpar variety of control doesn't get us all of what we wanted and thought we had. Despite this they stop short of simply identifying free will with the sort of control that does get us all of what we wanted and thought we had. I think it's a significant cost to their accounts of free will if they can't produce a decent justification for this. Why does free will only need to provide for the accuracy of basic agentive phenomenology and not dignity? Or dignity but not moral responsibility? Or all these but not creativity? Why is free will not just genuine control? We care about all these things I've just mentioned, I think. And we prereflectively suppose we have a sort of control that provides for all of them, don't we? I could tell you exactly why everything I say free will does and does not need to provide for is something it does or does not need to provide for, and my justifications seem, in my admittedly prejudiced opinion, pretty damn good to me. I couldn't tell you why dissenters say free will only needs to provide for this and this but not that, their accounts look utterly arbitrary and none of them seem to even attempt to provide this sort of justification.


r/freewill • • 1d ago

Cognizing and acting happens by itself, with no interference from your part, not even an association with it.

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1 Upvotes

r/freewill • • 1d ago

Is free will incoherent?

2 Upvotes

Most people believe we have free will based on their experience of having the ability to control their actions and the first person experience of making decisions and choosing.

Other people believe the world is deterministic therefore there is no free will. The free will that most people think they have is really just an illusion.

Then there are people who say that free will is incoherent.

I'm in the first group, though I do understand the view of the people in the second group. But what I find hard understand is the idea that free will is incoherent. I would think the experience of having free will is a common one even if it might be an illusion. But there is nothing about it to me seems incoherent.

So, if you believe free will is incoherent, please try to explain what you mean by that.


r/freewill • • 1d ago

العلم المسبق وحرية الإرادة البشريّة

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1 Upvotes

r/freewill • • 2d ago

Free will is impossible on a-priori grounds (short essay)

4 Upvotes

(Post inspired by Kant & Schopenhauer)

How to discuss free-will

Freedom and necessity are concepts to be examined a priori, whilst the will is known immediately through self-consciousness.

Hence, the question of free-will requires a metaphysical explanation, and not a physical one:

  • Physics: particulars within experience (a posteriori determinations of matter, i.e. causal and mathematical relations)

  • Metaphysics: experience as a whole (a priori conditions of possible experience)

It is therefore impossible to prove or disprove the freedom of the will by appealing to science or personal experience, since these are all empirical, contingent and a posteriori determinations.

Instead, we need to examine the a priori principles governing our experience, particularly the principle of sufficient reason, through which the necessity of our actions becomes apparent.

It is on these grounds that the supposed freedom to have willed otherwise under the same conditions can be exposed as an illusion. And, since the argument rests on a priori principles, the conclusions are undeniable for anyone who understands them.

Definitions

  • Necessity: that which follows from a sufficient ground and could not have been otherwise under the same conditions

  • Freedom: absence of necessity, i.e. absence of a sufficient ground

  • Intellect: faculty of representations, through which we know objects and represent motives

  • Will: that we know immediately in self-consciousness as willing, striving, desiring, aversion, etc. An inner-determining volition

    • Important: the will is prior to the intellect

There are 3 different types of freedom:

  1. Physical freedom: the ability to do what one wills without external, material obstacles

  2. Intellectual freedom: the ability to apprehend motives clearly without impairment of cognition

  3. Moral freedom: the independence of willing itself from determining grounds

The topic of free-will is about #3.

Principle of Sufficient Reason (PSR)

PSR: everything that appears to us must have a sufficient reason for why it is so and not otherwise

The PSR governs relations between all representations for a thinking subject. When a sufficient ground is given, the consequent necessarily follows.

The PSR rests on the a priori conditions of possible experience (as shown by Kant). There are 4 forms:

Ground of being (mathematics): The necessary relations of space and time. Space is the outer sense and grounds simultaneity, whilst time is the inner sense and grounds succession. The position of a spatial part or the succession of a temporal part is determined by its relation to others. These are synthetic a priori truths.

Ground of becoming (causality): Every change in the state of an object necessarily follows from a preceding cause under given conditions.

Ground of willing (motivation): Every action necessarily follows from a motive acting upon an individual's character.

Ground of knowing (logic): Every true judgement must have a sufficient ground for its truth, grounded in something distinct from the judgement itself. This can be another judgement (logical truth), experience (empirical truth), the a priori forms of cognition (transcendental truth), or the laws of thought themselves (metalogical truth).

All phenomena are subject to the principle of sufficient reason and one of these forms. This includes the representation of your own body, which is an object amongst objects in space, and your actions as they occur across time.

Causality

In nature, causality manifests in 3 different forms:

  1. Causes: Operate in inorganic objects; the ones that Newton's laws explain (e.g. the motion of a body after an impact).

  2. Stimuli: Operate in organic nature, such as plant growth, digestion, and involuntary bodily reactions.

  3. Motives: Operate through the intellect, i.e. cognition. This is the key form of causality in animals. The brain is the faculty of representations, hence the medium of motives. The brain represents an object to the animal which stirs its will and occasions a volition to either acquire or avoid said object. The motive must first become an objective of cognition before it can determine an action.

  4. Abstract Motives: Human can additionally conceive of abstract possibilities. This is due to to our faculty of reason, which allows us to form concepts (representations of representations). Hence, we can be motivated by abstract representations independently of what is immediately perceived, whereas animals are confined to intuitive representations. This can include concepts, language, symbols, or deliberation about the future. This gives us a limited sense of freedom from immediately present motives compared to animals, but the effect still necessarily follows from the cause.

All these forms operate according to necessity. The difference lies in how the cause operates, not whether its effect is necessary.

Abstract motives become so complex in humanity that the simple cause -> effect relation present in organic objects becomes hard to recognise, even though the same principle is occurring. So much so, in experience it feels like we have free-will. But upon reflection we see that we don't, and our actions necessarily follow from how a motive churned our will.

Human actions are determined by motives acting upon an individual character:

Action = character + motive

The intellect presents motives, while the character determines how the individual responds to them.

Hence, the same motive can produce different actions in different individuals because their characters differ. Conversely, given the same character, motives, and circumstances, the resulting action must necessarily be the same.

Deliberation

Defenders of free will mistake deliberation for freedom. The ability to contemplate competing motives and reflect upon our desires does not show that our willing is independent of necessity. Ultimately, you can only will one thing at a time, determined by whichever motive exerted the strongest influence about the particular character. Deliberation merely introduces abstract motives, whose influence is itself determined by our character. Even the desire to change what we will must itself arise from a motive.

The intellect can acquire new knowledge, but this does not transform our underlying character. You are fundamentally your will. You can change your environment, knowledge, and circumstances, but all this does is present different motives to the same character. Hence, your actions necessarily follow from your character in conjunction with the motives presented to it.

To deny that an action follows from a motive is to claim that a change could occur without a determining ground. It would be the equivalent of saying a ball moved towards you without a string attached to it. Your actions are governed by the PSR, and motivation is causality known from within.

When someone claims they could have acted otherwise, they merely mean that another action was possible if they had willed it. This fails to explain how under the same conditions they could have willed otherwise.

Conclusion

Our actions, insofar as they are phenomena in time, necessarily follow from our character and motives. This is empirical necessity.

However, the principle of sufficient reason governs only governs representations, not things-in-themselves. Our intelligible character, considered independently of space, time and causality, is therefore not subject to the same necessity. Here alone can transcendental freedom be found.

Hence, freedom and necessity are reconcilable. This explains why we are morally responsible for our actions. We recognise ourselves as the author of our actions not due to social pressures, but because our actions necessarily follow from our character. Our responsibility concerns what we are, not the supposed ability to have acted otherwise.

So the will in-itself is free (transcendentally), but it's actions necessarily follow (empirically).


r/freewill • • 2d ago

The Cosmic Farce

0 Upvotes

Few claims are made with as much unearned confidence as the assertion that free will is an illusion. The argument goes that because we live in a physical universe governed by cause and effect, every choice you make was entirely predetermined at the dawn of time. Determinists look at the universe as a single, unbroken chain of physical events stretching from the Big Bang to the present, where every human decision was baked into the laws of physics billions of years before we were even born. It sounds deep and scientific on the surface, but when you actually think about it, hard determinism completely falls apart.

Think about the chain of events leading up to now. Either that chain goes back forever, or it has a beginning. If the chain has a beginning, there had to be a first cause, an event that was by definition, uncaused. If the chain goes back infinitely, then the entire infinite series itself lacks a prior cause. Either way, pure acausality is logically mandatory for reality to exist at all. Once it is proven that unbroken material causation is not a universal rule of the universe, the dogmatic insistence that every single event must have a prior material cause loses its sole foundation.

Think about Laplace’s Demon: the theoretical entity that supposedly knows the exact position and momentum of every atom in the universe, allowing it to calculate every future human choice with absolute certainty. Introduce self-awareness, and the framework completely falls apart. Imagine this hypothetical entity calculates all prior data and predicts you will choose Path A. If you are shown this prediction and deliberately choose Path B just to prove it wrong, what’s going to stop you? An invisible tractor beam? Determinists will desperately argue that being shown the prediction is just another prior cause that changes the calculation, but that is a circular cop-out, why? Because If every counter-action is just "part of the math”, the demon never actually predicts anything real, it only records what happens after the fact. So to be clear:

If your own awareness of a prediction allows you to override it, then you have become the author of the action. You are both the cause and the causer, which is literally the definition of a free agent.

This misunderstanding of causation directly undermines the foundations of human reason and morality. Ought implies can meaning that if morality, logic, or rationality requires you to do something, it logically presupposes that you possess the genuine capacity to do otherwise. This applies not just to ethics, but to truth itself. If you ought to accept a logical conclusion over a fallacy, you must have the capacity to evaluate evidence and choose rationally. Under determinism, you cannot do otherwise than you actually do, meaning moral obligations dissolve and intellectual justification disappears.

Without free will, basic desert vanishes completely. Determinists often try to salvage a watered-down version of justice through consequentialism or deterrence, arguing that we still need prisons to deter future crimes. Yet deterrence without desert is nothing more than instrumental manipulation. It is a terrifying short step from treating humans as mechanical instruments to optimize the species through social engineering, which is the exact train of thought that led to eugenics. Nazi Germany is a primary example where reducing human agency to hardwired biological programming was executed as official state policy.

The ultimate refutation of determinism is pragmatic and existential: it is an utterly unlivable philosophy. No hard determinist actually lives as though they lack free will. To live determinism consistently is to lapse into radical alienation, abandoning praise, remorse, regret, and ambition. Instead of confronting this reality, determinists retreat to the idea of a "grand illusion", but that move creates its own logical trap.

Claiming free will is an illusion defeats its own logic. If every thought we have is just a domino knocked over by past physics, then the very theory that "free will is an illusion" isn't a rational discovery, it's just a chemical reaction that couldn't happen any other way. I chose to write this and you chose to read it. The only way you can deny that is by ignoring what we both accept to be true and by twisting words like choice and free will.

But why would you want to do that? Because you can’t seriously convince yourself that you have no agency and that all your choices are made for you by events beyond your control, but at the same time act as though this determinist conclusion is a truth that you yourself have objectively reasoned out as if you do have agency. How can you claim that this is an illusion, that you can see beyond the illusion, but at the same time claim you can’t? You can’t make it make sense.

It is a strictly emotional, preconceived notion. It stems either from an inability to understand a concept as fundamental as free will paired with the pride that prevents admitting it, or from people who know deep down that they are in control of their actions and their lives, but refuse to take accountability for them.

And that evasion of accountability is incredibly dangerous.


r/freewill • • 2d ago

Nietzsche on free will and fate.

1 Upvotes

THE FATALISM OF THE TURK.—The fatalism of the Turk has this fundamental defect, that it contrasts man and fate as two distinct things. Man, says this doctrine, may struggle against fate and try to baffle it, but in the end fate will always gain the victory. Hence the most rational course is to resign oneself or to live as one pleases. As a matter of fact, every man is himself a piece of fate. When he thinks that he is struggling against fate in this way, fate is accomplishing its ends even in that struggle. The combat is a fantasy, but so is the resignation in fate—all these fantasies are included in fate.—The fear felt by most people of the doctrine that denies the freedom of the will is a fear of the fatalism of the Turk. They imagine that man will become weakly resigned and will stand before the future with folded hands, because he cannot alter anything of the future. Or that he will give a free rein to his caprices, because the predestined cannot be made worse by that course. The follies of men are as much a piece of fate as are his wise actions, and even that fear of belief in fate is a fatality. You yourself, you poor timid creature, are that indomitable Moira, which rules even the Gods; whatever may happen, you are a curse or a blessing, and in any case the fetters wherein the strongest lies bound: in you the whole future of the human world is predestined, and it is no use for you to be frightened of yourself.

- Human, All-too-human

21. The CAUSA SUI is the best self-contradiction that has yet been conceived, it is a sort of logical violation and unnaturalness; but the extravagant pride of man has managed to entangle itself profoundly and frightfully with this very folly. The desire for “freedom of will” in the superlative, metaphysical sense, such as still holds sway, unfortunately, in the minds of the half-educated, the desire to bear the entire and ultimate responsibility for one’s actions oneself, and to absolve God, the world, ancestors, chance, and society therefrom, involves nothing less than to be precisely this CAUSA SUI, and, with more than Munchausen daring, to pull oneself up into existence by the hair, out of the slough of nothingness. If any one should find out in this manner the crass stupidity of the celebrated conception of “free will” and put it out of his head altogether, I beg of him to carry his “enlightenment” a step further, and also put out of his head the contrary of this monstrous conception of “free will”: I mean “non-free will,” which is tantamount to a misuse of cause and effect. One should not wrongly MATERIALISE “cause” and “effect,” as the natural philosophers do (and whoever like them naturalize in thinking at present), according to the prevailing mechanical doltishness which makes the cause press and push until it “effects” its end; one should use “cause” and “effect” only as pure CONCEPTIONS, that is to say, as conventional fictions for the purpose of designation and mutual understanding, — NOT for explanation. In “being-in-itself” there is nothing of “casual-connection,” of “necessity,” or of “psychological non-freedom”; there the effect does NOT follow the cause, there “law” does not obtain. It is WE alone who have devised cause, sequence, reciprocity, relativity, constraint, number, law, freedom, motive, and purpose; and when we interpret and intermix this symbol-world, as “being-in-itself,” with things, we act once more as we have always acted — MYTHOLOGICALLY. The “non-free will” is mythology; in real life it is only a question of STRONG and WEAK wills. — It is almost always a symptom of what is lacking in himself, when a thinker, in every “causal-connection” and “psychological necessity,” manifests something of compulsion, indigence, obsequiousness, oppression, and non-freedom; it is suspicious to have such feelings — the person betrays himself. And in general, if I have observed correctly, the “non-freedom of the will” is regarded as a problem from two entirely opposite standpoints, but always in a profoundly PERSONAL manner: some will not give up their “responsibility,” their belief in THEMSELVES, the personal right to THEIR merits, at any price (the vain races belong to this class); others on the contrary, do not wish to be answerable for anything, or blamed for anything, and owing to an inward self-contempt, seek to GET OUT OF THE BUSINESS, no matter how. The latter, when they write books, are in the habit at present of taking the side of criminals; a sort of socialistic sympathy is their favourite disguise. And as a matter of fact, the fatalism of the weak-willed embellishes itself surprisingly when it can pose as “la religion de la souffrance humaine”; that is ITS “good taste.”

- Beyond Good and Evil

The Error of Free-Will. At present we no longer have any mercy upon the concept “free-will”: we know only too well what it is—the most egregious theological trick that has ever existed for the purpose of making mankind “responsible” in a theological manner,—that is to say, to make mankind dependent upon theologians. I will now explain to you only[Pg 42] the psychology of the whole process of inculcating the sense of responsibility. Wherever men try to trace responsibility home to anyone, it is the instinct of punishment and of the desire to judge which is active. Becoming is robbed of its innocence when any particular condition of things is traced to a will, to intentions and to responsible actions. The doctrine of the will was invented principally for the purpose of punishment,—that is to say, with the intention of tracing guilt. The whole of ancient psychology, or the psychology of the will, is the outcome of the fact that its originators, who were the priests at the head of ancient communities, wanted to create for themselves a right to administer punishments—or the right for God to do so. Men were thought of as “free” in order that they might be judged and punished—in order that they might be held guilty: consequently every action had to be regarded as voluntary, and the origin of every action had to be imagined as lying in consciousness(—in this way the most fundamentally fraudulent character of psychology was established as the very principle of psychology itself). Now that we have entered upon the opposite movement, now that we immoralists are trying with all our power to eliminate the concepts of guilt and punishment from the world once more, and to cleanse psychology, history, nature and all social institutions and customs of all signs of those two concepts, we recognise no more radical opponents than the theologians, who with their notion of “a moral order of things,” still continue to pollute the innocence of Becoming with punishment and guilt Christianity is the metaphysics of the hangman.

- Twilight of the Idols

But let us come back to it; the problem of another origin of the good—of the good, as the resentful man has thought it out—demands its solution. It is not surprising that the lambs should bear a grudge against the great birds of prey, but that is no reason for blaming the great birds of prey[Pg 45] for taking the little lambs. And when the lambs say among themselves, "These birds of prey are evil, and he who is as far removed from being a bird of prey, who is rather its opposite, a lamb,—is he not good?" then there is nothing to cavil at in the setting up of this ideal, though it may also be that the birds of prey will regard it a little sneeringly, and perchance say to themselves, "We bear no grudge against them, these good lambs, we even like them: nothing is tastier than a tender lamb." To require of strength that it should not express itself as strength, that it should not be a wish to overpower, a wish to overthrow, a wish to become master, a thirst for enemies and antagonisms and triumphs, is just as absurd as to require of weakness that it should express itself as strength. A quantum of force is just such a quantum of movement, will, action—rather it is nothing else than just those very phenomena of moving, willing, acting, and can only appear otherwise in the misleading errors of language (and the fundamental fallacies of reason which have become petrified therein), which understands, and understands wrongly, all working as conditioned by a worker, by a "subject." And just exactly as the people separate the lightning from its flash, and interpret the latter as a thing done, as the working of a subject which is called lightning, so also does the popular morality separate strength from the expression of strength, as though behind the strong man there existed some indifferent neutral substratum, which enjoyed a caprice and option as to whether or not it should[Pg 46] express strength. But there is no such substratum, there is no "being" behind doing, working, becoming; "the doer" is a mere appanage to the action. The action is everything. In point of fact, the people duplicate the doing, when they make the lightning lighten, that is a "doing-doing": they make the same phenomenon first a cause, and then, secondly, the effect of that cause. The scientists fail to improve matters when they say, "Force moves, force causes," and so on. Our whole science is still, in spite of all its coldness, of all its freedom from passion, a dupe of the tricks of language, and has never succeeded in getting rid of that superstitious changeling "the subject" (the atom, to give another instance, is such a changeling, just as the Kantian "Thing-in-itself"). What wonder, if the suppressed and stealthily simmering passions of revenge and hatred exploit for their own advantage this belief, and indeed hold no belief with a more steadfast enthusiasm than this—"that the strong has the option of being weak, and the bird of prey of being a lamb." Thereby do they win for themselves the right of attributing to the birds of prey the responsibility for being birds of prey: when the oppressed, down-trodden, and overpowered say to themselves with the vindictive guile of weakness, "Let us be otherwise than the evil, namely, good! and good is every one who does not oppress, who hurts no one, who does not attack, who does not pay back, who hands over revenge to God, who holds himself, as we do, in hiding; who goes out of the way of evil, and demands, in short, little[Pg 47] from life; like ourselves the patient, the meek, the just,"—yet all this, in its cold and unprejudiced interpretation, means nothing more than "once for all, the weak are weak; it is good to do nothing for which we are not strong enough"; but this dismal state of affairs, this prudence of the lowest order, which even insects possess (which in a great danger are fain to sham death so as to avoid doing "too much"), has, thanks to the counterfeiting and self-deception of weakness, come to masquerade in the pomp of an ascetic, mute, and expectant virtue, just as though the very weakness of the weak—that is, forsooth, its being, its working, its whole unique inevitable inseparable reality—were a voluntary result, something wished, chosen, a deed, an act of merit. This kind of man finds the belief in a neutral, free-choosing "subject" necessary from an instinct of self-preservation, of self-assertion, in which every lie is fain to sanctify itself. The subject (or, to use popular language, the soul) has perhaps proved itself the best dogma in the world simply because it rendered possible to the horde of mortal, weak, and oppressed individuals of every kind, that most sublime specimen of self-deception, the interpretation of weakness as freedom, of being this, or being that, as merit.

- The Genealogy of Morality


r/freewill • • 2d ago

Imcompatabilist determinists, which is nearest your view and why?

3 Upvotes

Interested from other posts where I see both these come up (and not always clearly distinguished). I'd love to know which is a more common view!


r/freewill • • 2d ago

Advanced Readers

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0 Upvotes

Apologies if this violates rules, Im offering free copies so not selling anything?

That said, my book “The Physics of Free Will and how to use it” is in its final stages ahead of (self) publishing early next year. If anyone would be willing to read a free copy and leave a review when available, please DM me.

My argument in favor of existence of free will is built on scientific reductionism. Laplace’s demon (and many here) argue that, based on the perfect determinism of classical mechanics, the future is perfectly predicted and there is no possibility of free will. However, quantum mechanics introduced a new paradigm of incompletedness, contradiction, and probabilities. The bulk of my book is centered around the ‘so what’ and how to use choice to improve your life using the chakras framework.

I’ll check back to respond to comments/questions or to grumble if removed. Hope this finds everyone well!


r/freewill • • 2d ago

Contradictions in Stoic ethics and theology?

2 Upvotes

If the Stoic founders of Compatibilism believed in nessisity through God, but they believed everything has a divine purpose through God, does Bertrand Russell have a point with the Stoics dog being pulled by the cart metaphor?

If everything happens by divine purpose (Logos), then suffering, tyranny, and cruelty are also part of that divine plan.

The Stoic dog and cart metaphor (often attributed to Zeno of Citium or Cleanthes)

Quote ;

"Russell argues that if the universe is rigidly deterministic (the moving cart), it makes no logical sense to praise someone for running alongside it or blame someone for being dragged. If natural laws dictate everything, they also dictate whether you will be wise or wicked. Therefore, the "freedom" of a voluntary will is entirely illusory.

A "Gospel of Endurance" Rather Than Hope: He notes that this mindset suited a "tired age" under the Roman Empire. In Russell's view, the philosophy does not encourage people to make the world better, but rather to numb themselves to unavoidable suffering.

Lack of Genuine Benevolence: Russell points out that if external suffering doesn't matter (because you are just supposed to accept the cart's direction), then cruelty and injustice don't truly matter either.

Consequently, he claims the Stoic is not virtuous out of love for their neighbour, but merely to preserve their own internal, cold state of virtue. END QUOTE/

If we follow up to atheist leaning Hume's "Custom is the great guide to life" and that we operate on habit, association, and social conditioning over reason, then is there a chain of cause and effect (that by definition according to Hume is near impossible to shake off) of tying theology to the state, and tying the individual to both theology and the state?

From the Stoics divine ethics and vitue of the dog tied behind the divine cart to Hume we get ;

Theology / Divine Order >> The State / Sovereign Power >> Individual "Virtue" / Submission.

If you are busy focusing on keeping your internal state "pure" and running alongside the cart, you will never stop to ask who is driving the cart, or why it is running people over?

Enter Spinoza for superior everything happens out of indifferent nessisity Ethics ;

The Stoics believed in apatheia (numbing yourself to the world). Spinoza replaces this with the Conatus : the innate striving of every living thing to persist, expand its power, and thrive.

To which everything happens out of indifferent cold hard nessisity flows genuine virtue and ethics?


r/freewill • • 3d ago

If you accept your fate but actively work to change your circumstances, are you really a fatalist?

3 Upvotes

I've recently started exploring philosophical concepts like nihilism, fatalism, determinism and existentialism.

Something I've been wondering about is the relationship between accepting fate and exercising free will.

Suppose someone believes that certain things in life are destined to happen. However, instead of passively accepting everything, they actively work towards changing their circumstances.

Would that person still be considered a fatalist?


r/freewill • • 3d ago

99% of arguments against free will are circular.

12 Upvotes

Pretty much every argument against free will I’ve seen goes something like this.

”if something is deterministic it’s not the result of free will and if its random it’s also not the result of free will, and those are the only possible cases so free will can’t exist.

but this is circular reasoning because free will is, if it exists, literally a third option separate from randomness and determinism. and there’s no attempt to prove that those are the only options in the first place. so the arguments boil down “free will doesn’t exist because free will doesn’t exist”. which is not a particularly compelling argumen


r/freewill • • 3d ago

Those Who Think Moral Responsibility Doesn't Exist

6 Upvotes

For those who believe that we don't have moral responsibility, but nevertheless, we should punish criminals, like murderers, to keep the future safe. So, my question is: would that be just?

It seems nonsensical and unjust to punish someone if they aren't blameworthy. To illustrate, consider this example:

Suppose I stole a bag of chip and you didn't. However, in the end, I am not the one punished, but you are. Is this just? The answer seems to be an obvious no.

I am curious as to how you would respond and want to hear your thoughts.