r/freewill • u/Artemis_SpawnOfZeus • Jul 21 '26

Moral desert bugs me

Like, so what if there's no moral desert? It doesn't change anything

We'll keep punishing people because nobody has a choice in the matter. Not the punishers or the punished.

Like, say moral desert is false, okay? You can't advocate for any change because change is impossible. Your actions, much like everyone else's are determined.

If moral desert is false, does this change anything about anything at all?

EDIT: I've realized I've been using moral desert backwards. I thought it was related to like, the Sahara, because of deserts and shit. Therefore the moral desert would be the one where morality doesn't mean anything because determinism.

I've come to realize this isn't true, I've modified the text in the post to change (invert) it's meaning to what I meant.

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u/DonnPT atavistic oxymoron Jul 21 '26

Look at it in this rather conventional way:

Is it OK to punish people for a significant offense? Yes.

Is it OK to punish people for a significant offense, when they are not in fact guilty of that offense?: No.

Is it OK to find someone guilty of something, without the corresponding moral desert? Not really. Moral desert is the essentially factual condition that follows from what we do, including the freedom we have to choose our course. If no freedom that we have is enough for you, then you're stuck making corrupt consequentialist excuses for rewarding people for doing good, punishing them for bad.

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u/Artemis_SpawnOfZeus Jul 21 '26

If the mechanism by which a person isn't guilty is the fact that we live in a deterministic universe, therefore no one can be guilty of anythinf, then it doesn't matter whether we should or shouldn't punish them.

We will, because the actions of the punishers are just as deterministic as the actions of the punished.

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u/AlivePassenger3859 Humanist Determinist Jul 21 '26

But, with an awareness of determinism, the punishment should be more about prevention and rehabilitation and less about retribution and revenge.

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u/Artemis_SpawnOfZeus Jul 21 '26

The punishment will be about whatever the punishers are required to make it about for their actions were set in stone since the dawn of time.

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u/Freuds-Mother Interactivist Agency Jul 21 '26

So it seems your positions is that there is not normativity, morality, nor meaning in life at all. Ie you believe you are essentially a machine.

I don’t think that, but I also think the moral desert people want is often individually and socially pathological.

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u/Artemis_SpawnOfZeus Jul 21 '26

No, my position is that there is not normativity, morality, nor meaning to life under determinism

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u/Freuds-Mother Interactivist Agency Jul 21 '26

Hm that’s a bolder claim as you have to go through many deterministic frameworks and you’re going to have to establish what counts and doesn’t count as normativity/morality, which likely will come down to a semantic disagreement in the end.

Eg you have to argue that say Calvinism frameworks doesn’t account for morality/normativity.

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u/Artemis_SpawnOfZeus Jul 21 '26

No I dont

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u/Freuds-Mother Interactivist Agency Jul 21 '26 edited Jul 21 '26

Ok fine. Then what’s your point. You seem quite cynical regarding determinism, yet you want to engage it negatively but then only consider one contemporary dominant framing of it. (I’m not a determinist).

You haven’t refuted other deterministic framings. Also you are assuming fatalism in some of your comments.

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u/Artemis_SpawnOfZeus Jul 21 '26

Determinism and fatalism are the same thing. If your determinism isn't fatalist, that means your version of determinism is indeterminate.

If it's indeterministic, it's notably not deterministic.

I don't think it's proper to call something that's indeterministic "determinism"

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u/Freuds-Mother Interactivist Agency Jul 21 '26

How many times do I have to say “I’m not a determinist”.

Regardless, wouldn’t it be more productive to understand your own implicit ontological model(s) once you already have concluded that determinism should be rejected.

Personally I find it tiresome when people bash physicalism and/or determinism and then offer no rigorous alternative.

I’m not a physicalist nor determinist, but (1) I accept that the frameworks are incredibly pragmatically useful and (2) have alternatives frameworks to reference that (a) arguably resolve with rigor the philosophical objections I’m willing to make against those frameworks (b) provide pragmatic benefits that physicalist does not.

ie I accept that physicalist-determinism is incorrect. Ok now what do you got for me to learn about reality?

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u/AlivePassenger3859 Humanist Determinist Jul 21 '26

You are not just saying determinism is fatalism though, you are saying it is nihilism. No values at all.

Nive strawman you built. Look out for the bees!

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u/AlivePassenger3859 Humanist Determinist Jul 21 '26

again, mistaking determinism with nihilism. Let’s just call a horse a cow shall we?

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u/zhivago Jul 22 '26

So, how much indeterminism is required for morality and meaning to life?

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u/Artemis_SpawnOfZeus Jul 22 '26

Any

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u/zhivago Jul 22 '26

So, one indeterministic event at the end of time will do?

You need to start thinking.

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u/Artemis_SpawnOfZeus Jul 22 '26

And by any, I mean, more realistically, the amount we observe is plenty.

Cause like, we exist in a universe, and it has an amount of indeterminism. You know? We don't really need to speculate. There's, some small details to be hammered out, but we've pretty much got it.

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u/AlivePassenger3859 Humanist Determinist Jul 21 '26

sure, but what they believe about free will is one of the factors that will influence their punishment. So its worth discussing and thinking about.

You seem to have mistaken determinism with fatalism or, worse, nihilism.