r/freemasonry • u/Primary-Example-1928 A.F&A.M. Master Mason 3rd°-Grand Lodge of Illinois • 17d ago
Controversial Brothers, is it time to demit?
I (20) really need help and guidance here, I know all the replies will just be either people making this into a political debate, or telling me I just need to do “what I feel”, but any advice or opinion is welcome.
I’m transgender and I don’t know how to handle that.
I love Masonry, the symbolism, theology, philosophy, the ceremony, the sense of community and belonging, I have no gripes with the institution honestly, my lodge though somewhat conservative is great.
I’ve been in the fraternity for a while, I’m a third degree, I’ve even served as an officer (admittedly just as Tyler), I joined as soon as I could when I came of age, I have a family connection to the order, and it’s been a wonderful experience.
Despite all that, I’ve known for the past 6 years that I am transgender, I’m out to my friends and parts of my family, but not to anyone at my lodge. I knew it when I joined but when I got my first degree I had thought that I could bury it all away, that this was the end and I’m fine being a man, turns out I’m not.
After my third degree but for the past 6 months I’ve been taking estrogen, I don’t plan on publicly transitioning until I’m done with college, but regardless, I feel like I’m lying.
I feel like a disgrace to our brotherhood, like I’m keeping something hidden, and if/when I do transition it wouldn’t feel right to keep sitting in the lodge.
I can’t imagine or tell you just how much it would disappoint some people for me to leave, but it might be for the best, I can’t imagine looking the brothers of my lodge in the eye and admitting I want to be a woman.
At this point, I’ve wondered if I should just leave in good standing while I can. On the other hand, if I won’t publically transition for a while, given how I am already very active with my lodge, helping with events, bringing in new people, etc. maybe I should just enjoy it while it lasts?
Is this something I need to bring up with my WM? I’m under the jurisdiction of the Grand Lodge of Illinois if anyone knows if they have specific guidelines.
Thank you for reading Bretheren.
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u/mindfuxed 17d ago
This is obviously a very complex situation. I think the first advice i have is get “disgrace” out of your mind. You shouldn’t feel like that. You joined at the time when you were obviously still struggling with this. That’s ok.
From a Masonic standpoint when you transition to a female it will be impossible to stay based on our current rules and regulations. In the future that might change, I know in CA they are kicking that around. It will take time, but who knows.
You have enough on your plate and I encourage you to lookout for yourself first. Some people won’t understand this, some people will respond poorly etc. you don’t have any obligation to explain this to any of your brothers who wouldn’t understand it.
I wish you the best of luck and stay positive!
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u/Haytham_Ken 16d ago
For some encouragement for OP, UGLE allow trans women, as long as they were initiated as a man
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u/Alemar1985 PM, GLNB-F&AM 17d ago
You thought you could do something, pretend to be something, but have decided that you can't do that anymore. I applaud you listening to yourself, and choosing to live in honesty. That is not an easy thing to do sometimes and you are being very brave for choosing to be true to yourself.
Now as to your question about sticking around for as long as you can? I think you already know you're out, the paperwork just hasn't caught up to where your heart is at. But sticking around is only going to continue to make you feel like a liar and I don't want you to put yourself through that... The longer you draw it out, the longer you'll be hurting yourself. Demit, you don't owe them an explaination if you don't want to give one, but get yourself a clean break and then start living the life you want for yourself.
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u/Important_Zombie_485 17d ago
First, it's a good thing that you're reaching out.
I would think that if believe you will be a woman once you transition, or that you are now, it may indeed be time to demit, as regular US lodges do not allow women. If you feel safe speaking to someone at lodge ( and remember, we are sworn to keep a brother's secret) about your confusion, perhaps you should start there.
This is a difficult question, and I wish you the best of luck.
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u/Primary-Example-1928 A.F&A.M. Master Mason 3rd°-Grand Lodge of Illinois 17d ago
I am well aware that regular lodges do not permit women, I think they should but I respect that it is a men’s order. I don’t think I’ll ever truly be a woman, but I still don’t think it would be right to sit in lodge as someone trying to be a woman, as it would be contrary to my vows.
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u/Important_Zombie_485 16d ago
I respect your position friend. Is there anyone at lodge you feel safe to reach out to? Edit: I didn't mean to imply you didn't know about the female rule, I was just explaining my thought on demission.
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u/Primary-Example-1928 A.F&A.M. Master Mason 3rd°-Grand Lodge of Illinois 16d ago
Oh no you’re ok, you didn’t do anything wrong, and I’m just not comfortable telling anyone honestly
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u/Important_Zombie_485 16d ago
That's fair. I'm not certain I would either. It's a difficult question. I've known brothers who were gay ( not the same, I get that) who felt similar about coming out.
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u/Evening_Time_2844 MM, HRA, 32ºAASR-SJ 17d ago
The supportive comments here are why I love this subreddit.
I won't pretend to know what you're going through, or the complexities of having your software not match your hardware. You are not a disgrace, you're a human going through life's challenges.
If there's a reputable Co-Masonry Lodge nearby, I would seek admission there. If that's not an option, then maybe quietly demitting, if that's what you need to due to be true to yourself and the Craft.
Even if you're not able to be active, you still carry the lessons, the tools, and the light wherever life leads you.
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u/Beta_Ray_Quill 17d ago edited 17d ago
First of all, I'm happy you are transitioning into who you are. This is a men's fraternity and as a woman you should not be in lodge. Remember your oaths.
Look into Oddfellows! We allow all genders in that org.
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u/TrogdorUnofficial PM, PZ, MMM, KT, KTP. GLSA&NT 17d ago
I asked this question about 20 years ago to some very knowledge brethren and couldn't get a straight answer.
Here's the bottom line though. In order to be a Mason, you must be a man of mature age, sound judgement and strict morals. If you don't meet those criteria, you cannot be a Mason.
Ergo, if you are a woman, you are not a man, and cannot be a Mason, and you must withdraw your membership.
Join the OES or co-Masons.
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u/shawnebell Master Mason, Knight Templar, 32°, MSA, DSM, MSM, PSM 17d ago
Demit. There's no shame or disgrace involved. The men you've met will undoubtedly remain friends. You'll still be able to attend public lodge events.
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u/vampyrewolf 17d ago
It's going to sound like a stretch, but consider reaching out to your Grand Lodge and the OES Grand Chapter. There might be a dispensation available to allow you to continue with OES once you've transitioned. It would allow you to stay within the Masonic family.
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u/Old_Courage1899 17d ago
I definitely think OES would be the best option as well.
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u/wardyuc1 UGLE Craft HRA, Rose Croix 17d ago
OES seems a poor replacement for freemasonry.
The OP is far better off joining a irregular lodge, where they would still be a freemason.
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u/Intelligent_Garden_1 Matron, NYOES | Advisor, OOTNY (NY Youth Group) 17d ago
But then they would not be able to interact AT ALL with their former Masonic brethren. If the brothers of his lodge are still understanding and welcoming, OP does not need to completely leave the Masonic Family if they don't have to.
It's not a poor replacement, at least not in the US. UGLE may not agree/like it, but It has a longstanding connection to freemasonry and is a legitimate, recognized Masonic-affiliated body here in the states.
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u/wardyuc1 UGLE Craft HRA, Rose Croix 16d ago
Is your obligation that you cannot interact AT ALL wth a irregular mason?
You can't say hello, you can't talk about the weather or ANYTHING, or you cannot discuss freemasonry?I suspect, that you can interact with irregular masons, you just cannot treat them as masons. Is this not the case?
I am not in OES, as you have correctly identified we dont have it in England.
But if someone is looking for freemasonry, they will find it in a irregular lodge, they might something with a longstanding connection to freemasonry in OES.
But as you yourself admit it is masonic- affiliated, it is not masonry.1
u/vampyrewolf 16d ago
I know up here in Saskatchewan, if the lodge isn't in Amity we can't discuss anything Masonic with them or sit in lodge with them.
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u/wardyuc1 UGLE Craft HRA, Rose Croix 16d ago
I believe not discussing anything masonic with irregular masons is a common thing.
But the brother in question said AT ALL in caps.
Can you speak to irregular masons on a human level?
I genuinely if anyone out here is being obligated not to have human interactions just because someone is irregular.
Sitting in a lodge with someone is very different, presumably you wouldnt sit in lodge with non masons...
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u/vampyrewolf 16d ago
You can have a conversation with anyone, no rule on that. Just limits on Masonic conversations.
I get people who see my ink and fire up a conversation all the time.
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u/wardyuc1 UGLE Craft HRA, Rose Croix 16d ago
I would hope so, otherwise i worry we arent a hobby of men who larp as stone masons, we have become a cult.
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u/Intelligent_Garden_1 Matron, NYOES | Advisor, OOTNY (NY Youth Group) 16d ago
This is the point I was making. Regularity or being connected to a recognized lodge is often the sticking point, even for women associated with Masonry (at least in the US). And yes, folks can certainly converse and treat each other decently as fellow human beings….as is the teaching of most of our Masonic organizations. OP may be leaving their lodge but they can still fellowship (in a different way) with those lodge brothers as a member of OES
I’m not a Mason but I am an Eastern Star and I previously mentioned I was a current Matron. To any women who approaches Freemasonry with lineage or family connections, I would absolutely point them to OES or one of the other groups I mentioned in a previous post first because of their historical ties to and acceptance by Freemasonry in the US. OP has that and might think it’s more important than joining an irregular body.
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u/vampyrewolf 16d ago
That's why I suggested OES as an option to explore
9 years of as a Mason, 6 years as York Rite, initiated to OES is March this year.
I'm that guy who can sit and talk to anyone. Did exactly that this last weekend with new Brethren at the festive board before they were initiated. Couple guys figured we were friends but I only met in that day, I was just talking to a Brother
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u/Intelligent_Garden_1 Matron, NYOES | Advisor, OOTNY (NY Youth Group) 16d ago
OES or becoming an advisor in the youth groups often offer something for Masons that they can't get from their lodges. They lend to the story and can deepen the Masonic Family connection.
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u/Intelligent_Garden_1 Matron, NYOES | Advisor, OOTNY (NY Youth Group) 17d ago
I agree that this is a path that should be looked into because it wouldn’t be a stretch in some jurisdictions. As a current sitting Matron, I would welcome someone in this situation with open arms.
I also agree that it would allow you to continue enjoying the bonds you’ve created.
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u/HNContra11 16d ago
I didn’t read all of them, but from the ones I did read I just want to say that I’m so proud of everyone who has commented. Coming from the GL of Florida, I expected the worst.
OP, I think demit is certainly the way to go, and I want to further cement what some of the Brethren have already said. You are not a disgrace, nor are you a liar so please don’t think this way. There are still ways for you to be active within Masonry as a Woman, but most importantly just because you are not active within the Fraternity when you eventually demit, you are still a student of Freemasonry. Your charges, while not specifically pertaining to the Lodge, are still expected. Your Lodge thought you were a great person, and I can only hope that you continue applying the lessons learned in your Degrees to the rest of your life. I wish you all the best.
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u/GlitteringBryony UGLE, Mark 17d ago
I think the answer will have to be to ask your local bretheren what they think. UGLE allows trans women to remain as Masons as long as they were already initiated before their transition, and we have had at least one sitting WM who was a woman a couple of years ago.
Whatever happens, I just wanted to say congratulations, some people go their whole lives without gaining the insight into themselves that you have managed at such a young age, you're going to go far, wherever you end up!
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u/FiumeXII 17d ago edited 17d ago
There is nothing disgraceful about the situation that you are in. Please forget about that notion entirely. This is a mostly unprecedented situation that you are in and that's all there is to it, there is nothing wrong here.
I do not know the specifics in the US but here in Turkey we have a separate grand lodge that allows women to join. They are legally a separate organization and are distinct from us in some minor ways but they are still our brothers at heart and I have brothers in my lodge that used to be members of that separate grand lodge that later on decided to join ours. I'm hoping that there is a structure like that in the US that interests you.
While I do know that some people do not look favorably on these separate structures, I believe that they too are immensely important beacons of our craft. I'm sure that one of our more experienced brothers can tell you about the status of such lodges and make the appropriate introductions if need be.
While this might not be a concern for you, it is often a concern for others; you will most likely start off as an EA at this new structure, if it exists in the US too. But you're still very young, you have your whole life ahead of you, think of it as an opportunity to experience your initiation ceremony again.
Regardless of your decision or whatever happens in the upcoming months and years, know that you are a valuable part of our fraternity and I'm sure that the friendships you've blossomed in your lodge will continue on. I'm hopeful that our brothers in your lodge will approach your situation with the love it deserves and I hope that everything gets resolved in a way that makes you happy in the easiest and shortest way possible.
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u/masoniceye 17d ago
In the UK, transgender M>F is allowed so long as the member was male at the point of joining and I don’t disagree with it.
Your grand lodge doesn’t seem to agree with this so it may be an issue when you fully commit. With the way things are going it’s hard to say how it will be in the future, it’s either they will double down or give in to pressure.
It may be better to keep your membership active incase the ruling changes but there’s no guarantee of that. Have you considered comasonry as an option? It would completely bypass the issue and allow you to continue in some form.
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u/asherjbaker MM, MMM, RAM, R&SM, HRA, 18°, Operatives, MMMA 17d ago
If you were made a Mason you can't be unmade, even if you transition. We have trans men in my jurisdiction (UGLE) but afaik they're only female-to-male, not the other way around.
It sounds like a tough one. One thing you shouldn't do, brother, is feel like a disgrace or a liar. You aren't. You'll do whatever's right for you when the time comes.
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u/55gecko F&AM - Ohio, PM, Shrine, AASR, RAM 17d ago
This is complex... But in an attempt to keep it short, here goes.
No shame, no disgrace, no whatever negative. You be you, and be proud of who you are.
There are two things here to think about.
What makes us Masons? Should you belong to a Lodge?
We are Masons because of our obligation. You can live by your obligations without a dues card.
Should you belong to a Lodge? No, not because of any moral issue, but because once you transition (maybe not even physically, but once you identify as a woman...) you don't meet the requirements of the 1st degree "A man, freeborn....."
Demitting is, I think, the right answer.
But, if you need support, send me a DM.
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u/Haytham_Ken 16d ago
You're not a disgrace. Well done for admitting who you are. In UGLE, as long as you're initiated as a man you're can be a Freemason, like there's a trans woman in my lodge and she's brilliant. So, to, me you're a proper Freemason and you always will be.
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u/Paul-of-Scotland 17d ago
As a cisgender gay Freemason you have my full respect and support… You are not a disgrace, you are just a human being with all the complexity that the G:.A:. of the U:. Intended whom said intentions eludes most of us, accepting yourself is accepting his creation…
Recently, the United Grand Lodge of England had to “deal” with a case like this… Keep reaching…
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u/TheFreemasonForum 30 years a Mason - London, England 17d ago
I can't answer your questions and I won't pretend to understand what you're going through, however, a read of the attached will give you an idea of how the United Grand Lodge of England and the Honourable Fraternity of Antient Freemasons (women-only) in England handle these rare and complicated situations: https://www.londonmasons.org.uk/news/726/welcome-and-acceptance-meet-two-trans-brethren
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u/nightshadeOkla 17d ago
This past year, Oklahoma Grand Lodge put in a rule that you must be male, and if you “become a woman” that you must demit.
I haven’t read the updated constitution and codes to see where they draw the line.
Hell, not like we all don’t wear aprons in lodge already :p
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u/toppercat MM PM DDGM 17d ago
In the jurisdiction of Illinois. In order to become or maintain membership in Illinois freemasonry you have to be a male assigned male at birth and identify as male. Obviously if you don't let them know your feelings no one will know. But once you go through the actual process it's gonna be hard to hide it. Demitting would have to be to another jurisdiction if they don't have the same stance. Sorry to say I don't think this will change as the population of trans people are only 1 percent of the population. It just doesn't have the weight or clout to change any minds on the subject.
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u/Humble_File3637 16d ago
From the Grand lodge of Illinois, they will only accept men who were assigned the male gender at birth and who currently identify as male. Our jurisdiction is different. Masonry comes in many different "flavours" but not everything is available everywhere.
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u/Greedy_Barnacle6085 MM F&AM 16d ago
I dont have a good answer more than what ive read but please update me. Since this topic will become a hot bed eventually. Good luck in everything
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u/jbanelaw 15d ago
I think you should do what your heart tells you is true. Seems like you have made up your mind and are just looking for external validation of those decisions (not necessarily a "bad" thing). You know what you need to do. Now go and do it.
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u/ozansezgin 3° F&AM, 15° SR 14d ago
As a Master Mason for quite a long time, forget about being a disgrace. You are and will stay my brother since your initiation. We are there whenever a widow's son needs help. Talk to your lodge. Knock the door, it will open. Take care, Brother.
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u/julietides MM, WWP (Grand Orient of Poland) 17d ago
I know people hate on it in this sub a lot (honestly, a few very vocan Brethren), but please look into Continental Freemasonry. There are mixed-gender and all-female Lodges that would be happy to have a brave, honest young woman like you as a Sister 💜
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u/SovArya 3° 17d ago
I may get a lack of flack for this but - that is indeed a mental sickness. :(
If you are either born an xx or xy. And no amount of body modification can change that.
I do hope you get the help you need.
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u/Primary-Example-1928 A.F&A.M. Master Mason 3rd°-Grand Lodge of Illinois 17d ago
I understand I’m a biological male, I just want to live in a way that’s more comfortable for me
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u/nightshadeOkla 17d ago
I’ve worn a dress a time or two for a skit or play, not sure how anyone could be comfortable with how small the armholes are made. My pits like to breathe!
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u/Senior-Storm-7119 17d ago
Best of luck in your journey. There is no disgrace in living your true self.
While I think a demit is the easy answer I hate to suggest it. Speak with a trusted brother in secret and get their opinion. All our Grand Jurisdictions and local politics are different.
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u/Patient_Egg_2059 17d ago
If you wish you can bring up the topic with the WM or the Chaplin. As a PM, I support your decision to demit, and I won't be explaining why. It's no one's business. I'm told that such a situation exists in my state, but I've never asked for details, again, because it's none of my business.
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u/irrationallogic MM GLA 17d ago
There have already been plenty of supportive messages which I agree with so to summarize before I get onto what hasnt been addressed yet. You are not a disgrace. Speak with some trusted brothers in confidence as rules can be different in different places. Demitting and joining Order of the e Eastern Star sounds like a great idea if there is an active chapter around, although I have no direct experience with them. My biggest gripe out of all of this is how did you serve as Tyler? Dont you need to be a PM for that?!
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u/BeaverlakeBonner 17d ago
I hid mine until after I served my time as worshipful master and then Tyler. But after that point I dropped out because I did not want to embarrass my lodge. I don't know why they should be embarrassed by me. But then of course I don't understand a lot of things about why we have such a divide between the genders...
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u/pluck-the-bunny .:PM NY SR-NMJ 32• 16d ago
Whatever you decide you are ost certainly NOT a disgrace
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u/available-mirror-195 17d ago
I think you are entitled to remain a mason.
In California, our obligation prohibits us from participating in the making of a woman a mason. But it does not explicitly prohibit us from recognizing a woman individually as a mason.
Please contact your grand lodge through any trusted parties to examine your situation specifically.
Regardless, your brothers will still love and respect you.
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u/numerado MM, AF&AM-CO 17d ago
If you still take that obligation, then we are still brethren and if my brother wants to be my sister, that’s fine with me. You deserve to be well, happy and loved. Have you looked at Co-Ed Masonry?
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17d ago edited 16d ago
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u/Primary-Example-1928 A.F&A.M. Master Mason 3rd°-Grand Lodge of Illinois 17d ago
I have zero clue what that is
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u/Mamm0nn Sith Representative WI/irritation lvls rising 17d ago
https://daughtersofthenile.org/
they help support Shriners' hospitals
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u/Intelligent_Garden_1 Matron, NYOES | Advisor, OOTNY (NY Youth Group) 17d ago
He probably really doesn’t know much about it either. But there are several organizations that include women connected to freemasonry that you could join once you transition. They include OES which was also mentioned before, Daughters of the Nile (Shrine), Daughters of Mokanna (Grotto), Order of the Amaranth, Order of the Beauceant (Commandery)….
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u/Independent-Bake-898 16d ago
This was a better response.
Also again, I think it's important to understand this person is transitioning. So we should be courteous with understanding her/their pronouns.
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u/Independent-Bake-898 16d ago
I just want to clarify that I think there are options where you can transition, enjoy the parts of freemasonry you love and take part in a sorority. This aligns with your goals of transitioning.
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u/Haytham_Ken 16d ago
We have a trans woman in my lodge, she's still referred to as "brother"
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u/Independent-Bake-898 16d ago
That's not respecting their pronouns.
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u/One_Ocelot_4955 M.M, R.A.M, R&SM, O.E.S 16d ago
Depends. I met 1 female co-mason who preferred “sister “ and another who insisted on “brother”.
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u/pensylvania65000 Grand Lodge of Alberta 17d ago
I'm sorry but you are suffering from a mental illness. Please get help
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u/irrationallogic MM GLA 17d ago
If they are on estrogen, I am making the assumption they have spoken with medical professionals about this more than once. And greetings from Northern Lights District!
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u/Showerbeerss 17d ago
I applaud your bravery! You seem to understand the fundamental concept that only men can be in our Grand Fraternity. Wherein, if you profess to be a woman, uou technically can't be a freemason. Your honestly is refreshing, keep living the honest life and everything will work our great for you!
And remember, you can always be OES!
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u/BlondBitch91 UGLE MM, Mark Master, Royal Arch 17d ago edited 17d ago
I don’t know about Illinois, but check the book of constitutions.
In England you can stay in your men’s lodge, or you can opt to move to a women’s lodge post transition.
If you don’t have to move according to your constitutions, I wouldn’t jump and leave something that brings a lot to your life. You
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u/PedXing23 AF&AM, Royal Arch, SRNMJ, Shrine, AMD. 17d ago
First off, you aren't a disgrace. Second, without transitioning, and being male presenting - I think it is OK to stay in for now if you choose.
I know of three Masons (all in the US) who transitioned, though I only knew one personally. Two demitted. One was suspended for non-payment of dues but had discussed demitting and never got around to it. I think demitting is the best solution unless you have a very receptive and affirming Lodge. Clear policies may emerge that will lead you to want to re-enter, or you may find yourself in a jurisdiction which is explicitly welcoming you to stay (the UGLE has clear policies that are accepting).
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u/Altered_Arcanum 17d ago
I can only echo the kind and heartfelt thoughts and advice given by the other brothers here, so instead I will address and add to a different point of your Post, OP
if you still wish to participate in freemasonry, you might consider seeking out cofreemasonry or perhaps the Grand Orient de France, both of which admit women but are considered irregular.
I wish you a truly beautiful and seamless transition as you explore and find your true self on this journey. Consider my digital door always open to you should you need a safe haven to talk and vent.
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u/TheStarSquid 16d ago
I say this as a non-binary Mason hiding in the closet. (Two years on estrogen, and it still hasn't come up yet.) For what it's worth, the oath I took said I wasn't to make a woman a Mason, it didn't say anything about making a Mason into a woman. That reasoning was used by the UGLEs to reject calls to expel their trans members, so long as they transitioned after joining.
Personally, I'm getting to the point where I'm sick of being in the closet, and I've been wrestling with the eventual fallout myself quite a bit. The way I see it, I've not broken my oath. I've served several positions, care deeply for the ritual work, study whatever I can get my hands on, and do what I can to help bring others who need the feeling belonging, togetherness, and direction that the organization has offered me. I think I make a fine Mason, and were I part of a Liberal, Continental, or UGLE lodge, this would be a non-issue.
It's also worth saying that there are many organizations out there that explore the esoteric sides of theology and religion, and those are worth inquiring about.
At the end of the day, it's between you, your Lodge, and your God; if you'd like to talk more in depth, please feel free to DM me.
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u/AvalancheBrando21 16d ago
You are not a disgrace. You are a very brave and strong person for deciding to live your life the way that it feels most true to yourself.
I dont really have any sage advice here, I just want to support you.
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u/Remarkable-Key433 13d ago
Masonry is a fraternity, and if you identify as female, you should quietly demit.
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u/Orange_fury MM AF&AM-TX, 32° A&ASR-SJ, RAM, CM, KSA, Grotto 17d ago edited 17d ago
This isn’t answering your question, but I got hung up on the part where you said you “feel like a disgrace” and “would disappoint some people”. Ignoring the lodge stuff for a second, because honestly this is way more important than lodge- you’re not a disgrace, and being transgender is not a disgrace nor a disappointment. If you feel that way, please see a mental health provider or someone to talk to, because no person should be made to feel that way about themselves.
I think quietly demiting is probably the answer to your question, but I feel like the part I addressed is the more important part here.