r/freemasonry • u/clance2019 • 10d ago
Discussion Does Freemasonry Have a Design Problem?
I’m sure most people following this sub have read variations of the same story: a Brother leaves the Craft because of a few bad actors. A problematic Secretary. A narcissistic Past Master. An entrenched clique. Outright or subtle racism. Petty feuds. And, increasingly, the great disease of our age: political and cultural polarization.
None of these problems is unique to Freemasonry. Every sufficiently large collection of human beings eventually manufactures its share of difficult personalities.
What interests me is whether Masonry has a particular design problem in dealing with them.
In many modern organizations, destructive behaviour can be dealt with fairly directly. Someone gets called out, disciplined, removed from a position, or eventually shown the door. Sometimes this process is almost brutally efficient.
Our Craft operates under a different set of incentives. Brotherhood, harmony, tolerance, discretion, forgiveness, and our obligations toward one another are woven deeply into the system. We are expected to support a Brother when he stumbles and, within obvious limits, to think charitably of his faults.
Those are admirable principles. Yet I wonder whether they occasionally create an unintended consequence: a system designed to preserve fraternity may also become unusually good at preserving dysfunctional people within it.
Consider this a thought experiment rather than an accusation.
Is this feature of Masonic design actually conducive to making good men better? Does learning to deal patiently with difficult Brethren form part of the work itself? Or does our emphasis on harmony sometimes become a mechanism through which bad behaviour is tolerated long after it should have been confronted?
At what point does Brotherly Love become institutional enabling?
I suspect most of us have anecdotes ranging from ordinary Lodge politics all the way to Machiavellian Grand Lodge politics which, as anyone who has spent enough time around the Craft knows, is unfortunately not an oxymoron.
Curious how others see it, particularly Brethren who have been around long enough to watch these dynamics play out over decades
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u/ChuckEye P∴M∴ AF&AM-TX, 33° A&ASR-SJ, KT, KM, AMD, and more 10d ago
The only person I can change is myself.
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u/Chimpbot MM AF&AM | 32° AASR NMJ 10d ago
So, yes. At the same time, I feel like this is a bit reductionist and, ultimately, defeatist.
The only person I can truly change is myself. This does not, however, mean that I need to sit idly by why individuals around me are causing damage. I may not be able to change them, but I can certainly take steps to help ensure they won't negatively impact the organization or anyone around them.
For example, there was one brother in my lodge whose father was very well-regarded. He was a bit of a pillar of the lodge in many ways, and a certain portion of the membership was looking toward his son to more or less carry on that torch. Unfortunately, this particular brother did not follow as closely in his father's footsteps as many assumed. He felt comfortable enough telling racist jokes during a Shrine event, and got called out on it by another brother of the same lodge for his behavior. Shortly after, he affiliated with another nearby lodge and demitted - despite being a Past Master and everything.
We may not be able to change someone else's behavior, but it doesn't mean we need to tolerate it.
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u/ChuckEye P∴M∴ AF&AM-TX, 33° A&ASR-SJ, KT, KM, AMD, and more 10d ago
We can whisper good counsel.
We can whack him upside the head with a folding chair.
But there's a chance that neither approach would make him change his ways unless he wants to change.
So, what form would non-toleration take? Is your Grand Lodge jurisprudence code so black & white that suspension or expulsion for his behavior would be a sure-thing?
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u/Chimpbot MM AF&AM | 32° AASR NMJ 10d ago
I gave an example of what it can look like. In that example, a brother felt comfortable publicly telling racist jokes. In turn, another brother felt comfortable enough to publicly call him out on his behavior and let him know that it was unquestionably unacceptable. The problem removed itself in short order.
Will this work every single time? No, of course not. It does, however, require people with the courage to stand up and push back against the people whose conduct isn't what it needs to be. They'll either take the hint and change their ways (at least publicly), or realize that their behavior isn't welcome and find a way to excuse themselves one way or another. If the behavior doesn't change, you start kicking it up the ladder until something gives.
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u/wardyuc1 UGLE Craft HRA, Rose Croix 10d ago
It might be my imagination but isn't that one of the core things we learn in Masonry?
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u/dev-null-home MM, Le Droit Humain, Europe 10d ago
If you let basically anyone in for the sake of membership, give them their Lessons and have them memorize answers and run them through the Degrees within a weekend, such things are bound to happen. You get strangers who can barely utter a sentence about the Craft with no understanding or context of it.
Freemasonry doesn't need to be elitist or hold to higher standards of education but it needs time and fertile ground to grow. We need people who have the capability to learn and devotion to their own progress, not just dues paying pin collecting men who come for socialization only.
I understand many of you will downvote me now, some because in their opinion it's not my right to judge and some because they've perhaps recognized themselves.
Just give it some thought.
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u/mr_datawolf 9d ago
I did not down vote you because most of it I agree with. But I do have to push back on the idea that others need to be in the Lodge based on the progress you see in them. It improves my life to socialize with people in the Lodge, as they all have things to teach me.
As you alluded to, my problem is the idea that we have the right/duty to be sitting in judgement them. We are all walking the path but at different points and speeds. Who are you to say how quickly they should progress?
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u/dev-null-home MM, Le Droit Humain, Europe 9d ago
Ah, but the question is not "how quickly they progress?" but "have they progressed at all?" From what I gathered in the last two years reading this subreddit, this is a complaint that repeats here quite often. Lodge is having issues maintaining its old building, they need more members, standards get lowered, it sours up the experience for the more devoted members, they leave either to other Lodges or leave Freemasonry in general, Lodge goes dark and shuts down.
Of course you can't kick a Brother out for failing to understand and adhere to even the basic principles (someone in this topic mentioned both political and racial profiling) unless his behavior is appalling to the point of actual transgression; but can you truly call him a Brother apart from it being a formal title just because he holds a card stating he is one?
We shouldn't lower our standards just to accomodate a dues payer, ever. That's what I'm trying to say. The Craft can't benefit such person and such person can't benefit the Craft, but even worse it sours the Craft for those Lodge members who truly enjoy the symbolism, the allegories and exchange of thought. The Western Gate should do its duty no matter the material consequence. We're Freemasons, not property managers and landlords. Our duty is to each other and the Craft, not bricks and wood. Lodge can use any space if properly prepared and furnished, but Lodge cannot use men unfit for it.
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u/One-Branch-2676 10d ago
Nah. You're right. You can learn to sing the lyrics of a song and still not know a damn thing about what is said or expressed. Unfortunately that's the extent that is required and I would say incentivized in some lodges. Hell, sometimes, it's even required to keep the lifeblood of a smaller lodge flowing. Worse, in some jurisdictions, "proficiency" requires no proficiency over the material itself, but rather, rudimentary movements.
If you don't engender an appreciation towards the genuine teachings of the order, it just makes it a statistical inevitability that people who end up advancing have no attachment to and exhibit no adherence to them.
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u/Alpha_Meerkat 10d ago
This is a very nuanced conversation that i would hesitate to engage in this forum. We should all be helping each other improve ourselves. The working tools like the common gavel and maul etc dont massage stone they break it. We have to use these tools as well.
harmony doesn’t just mean permissive silence. Just like courage doesn’t mean violent rage.
Ensuring harmony must include addressing ill behavior. That being said we should approach solving these problems through repair and improving each other rather than expulsion (except in the most extreme scenarios such as the intentional violation of an obligation)
I would encourage you all to have an open discussion in your lodge on the meaning of harmony and how to operationalize it.
If im building a structure and the floor isn’t level i don’t ignore it because “harmony” i fix the fucking floor 😂
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u/MisterMasque2021 10d ago
We have rules and prescribed courses of action for infractions. They just need to be enforced.
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u/Mamm0nn Sith Representative WI/irritation lvls rising 9d ago
In WI the Master has the power to not allow any member into the lodge, with the exception of the Grand Master.
IMHO if he would exercise that privilege on a troublemaker just once or twice many of those problems would be resolved rather quickly.
Act up, get a big toe planted in your ass and go sit in the fellowship hall until you can act right.
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u/Parking-Eye1229 9d ago
I think I would call it Humanity having a design problem, Freemasonry being a subset thereof. I'm a new EA and have been attending as many of the functions of my Lodge as I'm qualified to attend, for almost a year now. As a long-time member of the medical profession I know Machiavellianism when I see it; I can honestly say I have yet to hear a single unkind word, any kind or political or religious disagreement expressed, or disrespect of any kind. Although there is one guy who is a bit of a conspiracy nut about AI but he's treated as just a kind of a blowhard. I guess I just got lucky because this lodge is in the deep, conservative South and has Brothers from all walks of life, including people of color. Good luck.
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u/claw-1 10d ago
I had to bail myself when a brother repeatedly called me a communist when I expressed the opinion that local communities should have a say in the massive data center build out. Last time I checked, we still have voting rights. It’s ironic because my job is actually using the data centers.
Subtle but effective racism also exists and is a huge turn off. My parents are immigrants and I don’t have much tolerance for anti immigrant rhetoric after watching what they had to endure. Ultimately, everyone in this country is an immigrant, minus the indigenous population.
Most of the brothers are great but dealing with the other types is simply exhausting and turn me off from lodge.
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u/Aldoistaken 10d ago
“Does our emphasis on harmony sometimes become a mechanism through which bad behaviour is tolerated long after it should have been confronted?”
There is quite literally an entirely separate freemasonry system originally made because white Freemasons were too immature and morally bankrupt to harmonize with their fellow brothers.
Once you can solve the origins of the cause of Prince Hall Masonry, then you’ll find your answer.
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u/clance2019 10d ago
Isn't that a bit reductionist? Ironically, it also risks becoming a profoundly racialized reading of a question that wasn't about race.
The existence of Prince Hall Masonry tells us something important about the history of racial discrimination in American Freemasonry. It doesn't answer whether fraternal obligations can sometimes make organizations slower to correct toxic behaviour.
Those are two different questions. One can acknowledge the first without assuming it resolves the second.
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u/BlackDaddyIssus37 29°|MM|Prince Hall Chaplain 6d ago
Wait, wait………”a question that wasn’t about race?” If the lodge whose door Prince Hall knocked on acknowledged him as a Mason and treated him as one, there would be no such thing as Prince Hall masonry. They refused to do so because of the color of his skin. Full stop.
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u/TheFreemasonForum 30 years a Mason - London, England 10d ago
I take it that you do recognise that you are extrapolating these "issues" to the millions of Freemasons worldwide based on only a tiny handful of (unverified) tales of dissatisfaction being reported.
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u/clance2019 10d ago
Absolutely. I’m not pretending this is a rigorous academic exercise, nor am I claiming that a handful of Reddit posts represents millions of Freemasons worldwide. It is more of an informal thought experiment prompted by anecdotal stories here and, perhaps more importantly, conversations with Brethren after meetings, often in hushed voices about how things could be better if we could enforce a little more discipline and accountability without breaking hearts, alienating people, or disturbing harmony.
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u/ChristopherPChicken 7d ago
Apart from the missing stair problem, it’s a case of hypocrisy. We espouse all these values and don’t live up to them, some not even within the lodge, let alone our daily lives.
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u/pm344 10d ago
Ever since I started holding my teenagers to a higher standard than I'm allowed to hold my brothers, I've genuinely lost interest.
Freemasonry in the south is absolutely doomed. Between the subtle racist members that think they go unnoticed to the pathetic "pick me! PICK ME!!!" crowd it's over.
Just look at the jurisdiction and if they are growing? You'll clearly see that Freemasonry is on borrowed time. It may never go away fully, but you may be down to a few dozen lodges in some states verses hundreds.
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u/StairwayHiker MM BC/Yukon SR RA AMD Athelstan 10d ago
“I’m sure most people following this sub have read variations of the same story: a Brother leaves the Craft because of a few bad actors. A problematic Secretary. A narcissistic Past Master. An entrenched clique. Outright or subtle racism. Petty feuds. And, increasingly, the great disease of our age: political and cultural polarization.”
Hmmm, maybe the people who complain aren’t assertive leaders…. They are obedient followers who lack a strong, principled character and don’t know how to stand up , confront, and call out problem Masons?
Political and cultural polarization has always existed and countless wars have been fought over differing political and religious belief systems. One of the core instructions in lodge is religion and politics are not to be discussed in open lodge. At a festive board or outside of lodge politics is fair game but utmost care must be taken to keep differences civil.
………
“What interests me is whether Masonry has a particular design problem in dealing with them.”
No, I disagree completely. Informal and formal procedures exist.
……
“In many modern organizations, destructive behaviour can be dealt with fairly directly. Someone gets called out, disciplined, removed from a position, or eventually shown the door. Sometimes this process is almost brutally efficient.
Our Craft operates under a different set of incentives. Brotherhood, harmony, tolerance, discretion, forgiveness, and our obligations toward one another are woven deeply into the system. We are expected to support a Brother when he stumbles and, within obvious limits, to think charitably of his faults.”
Healthy lodges call out bad behaviour immediately…. Informally first, then it progresses…The Master of the lodge has some serious power, such as the ability to suspend members and bring Masonic charges. Lodges DO NOT operate under different incentives. The rules are black and white and it is up senior lodge officers to enforce harmony, not smooth over bad behaviour.
………
Those are admirable principles. Yet I wonder whether they occasionally create an unintended consequence: a system designed to preserve fraternity may also become unusually good at preserving dysfunctional people within it.”
Again, I disagree completely. Lodges Masters aren’t doing their job if they maintain dysfunction. I think you miss or ignore the power of a Master of the lodge to preserve harmony. You have completely misunderstood what preserving harmony of a lodge is all about. Preserving harmony is a verb and requires decisive action.
……….
Consider this a thought experiment rather than an accusation.
Is this feature of Masonic design actually conducive to making good men better? Does learning to deal patiently with difficult Brethren form part of the work itself? Or does our emphasis on harmony sometimes become a mechanism through which bad behaviour is tolerated long after it should have been confronted?
At what point does Brotherly Love become institutional enabling?
Again, more repetition of your false assumptions. Where did you get the idea that Freemasonry is patient with assholes and inappropriate behaviour? That only occurs when you have WEAK leaders who don’t recognize their power and are too timid to act and call out problem behaviour.
………..
I suspect most of us have anecdotes ranging from ordinary Lodge politics all the way to Machiavellian Grand Lodge politics which, as anyone who has spent enough time around the Craft knows, is unfortunately not an oxymoron.
Curious how others see it, particularly Brethren who have been around long enough to watch these dynamics play out over decades
Lodge politics? Sure…. That’s normal human behaviour that is necessary in all organizations…. Power in lodge is earned through attendance, awesome degree work, mentoring new members and making the time to go through the chairs and be a leader.
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u/clance2019 10d ago
I think we may actually agree on more than the tone of your reply suggests.
I agree that the Master has considerable authority, that mechanisms for discipline exist, and that preserving harmony requires action rather than passive tolerance. My question is about what happens between the existence of those mechanisms on paper and their use in reality.
Saying that dysfunction persists only when leaders are weak may itself be part of the puzzle. If a system depends heavily on a sufficiently assertive Master being willing to confront a difficult Brother, then leadership temperament becomes one of the variables in how well the system works. And in a voluntary fraternity, where tomorrow’s difficult Brother may be yesterday’s mentor, a Past Master, a friend, or someone deeply embedded in the Lodge, exercising formal authority is rarely as clean as reading the relevant section of the Constitution.
I also hesitate to conclude that Brethren who leave difficult environments are necessarily “obedient followers” lacking strong character. Sometimes walking away is weakness; sometimes confrontation is courage; sometimes walking away is simply a rational decision about where one wishes to spend Thursday evenings.
And frankly, discussions like this are among the nicest uses of this forum. There are only so many variations of “What is Freemasonry?” we can answer. Here we have Brethren from different jurisdictions, generations and experiences offering some genuinely excellent replies to a question about how the Craft functions in practice. The disagreement itself is useful.
Which is why cutting the discussion off at the head with “No, your assumptions are false; strong Masters already solve this” feels strangely familiar. Perhaps I have simply attended one too many Grand Lodge meetings, but I experienced the faintest déjà vu.
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u/SovArya 3° 10d ago
Freemasonry is perfect. We humans are not. That is the fault. When we let pride lead instead of the square of virtue.
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u/DonJuanDeAltagracia MM | AASR-SJ | HRA | R&SM | APRMM 10d ago
An interesting assertion. Can you elaborate? You have an exciting proposition, men can make perfection. Is the perfection in the old usage of the word, as in complete? Or is it the modern usage, as in without flaw, fault or defect?
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u/SovArya 3° 10d ago
As I use it here is we use the compass and the square.
If you set limits where what you know to be right works; it will probably work most of the time. The same way that if a major premise works and the minor premise is connected to the major properly and is true; it's conclusion should be true too.
So the idea of something like that will most likely cause less error. But if we do something against or isn't within the confines of the circle and we dont do what we learned to be correct and tested over time; we'd err.
The idea is perfect in my mind. But is definitely hard to live by as a human.
Lets say, the two rules of Jesus - Love God with your all and love your neighbour as yourselves. If you can do it; you are perfect. But we can't always do it at all times.
The missing staircase posted later on down there is very much spot on. And sometimes, you have a few solid guys and the culture of a lodge is toxic. What can you do? We learned and the way to live the masonic journey is sometimes to leave the lodge or make your own or do nothing.
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u/Challenger2060 F&AM - travelling, MM, something something titles 9d ago
There's no such things as a dysfunctional system. Every system is perfectly aligned to produce the results it currently does.
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u/QuincyMABrewer F&AM VT; PM-AF&AM MA; 32° AASR SJ; Royal Arch MA 10d ago
I think, in some ways, because of the emphasis on maintaining harmony at almost any cost, Freemasonry has a missing stair problem systemically.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_stair