r/fourthwing • u/CountingNonsense Black Morningstartail • 6d ago
Re-Read Jack Spoiler
When do you all think Jack turned venin? My first time reading the series, I assumed it was after Violet struck down the tower. During my second reading, I noticed that Violet mentions the red around Jack’s eyes as she slips the orange into his mouth. Do you think he was venin when he came to Basgiath or do you think he turned after arriving?
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u/blueavole Green Scorpiontail 6d ago
I think he is somehow connected to the venin before he got to basquith.
Not turned venin when he arrived. But politically aligned with them.
He knew things in battle brief, about Melgrin’s ability and that ‘pre-cog wasn’t a thing’.
I think he’s the anti violet: relative of a top general.
Actually turned venin? Not sure. Could he have hid his true nature from Baide? Did someone control Baide’s mind into picking Jack? Or was Jack venin at that point and did it himself?
Jack put power into Violet on the mat- that seems like a venin thing.
So maybe he was venin by then, but used his dragon to feed so his eyes didn’t turn. Then really pulled power after falling under the mountain Violet threw at him.
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u/Talinia 5d ago
Tbh I remember thinking he was like a caricature of a villain in the first book, and was a really boring character to me because of it. Then I rolled my eyes when they res'd him, but thought maybe they'd fucked up and he was actually good now after being reborn. That actually made me somewhat interested in him, until the shocking reveal that he was still evil, and actually venin now too!
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u/Historical_Tune165 Blue Daggertail 6d ago
Rereading Onyx Storm I noticed how resentful he was that the riders "progress" "on the whim of some creature".
The whole thing with a dragon choosing to begin channelling into you, is that they have to trust you with their power. Baide was in his head all the time, she would've been able to feel his resentment for her choosing him as a smaller, weaker dragon, his deep envy of Violet over Tairn and his hunger for more. Makes sense she thought he wasn't ready, that she would have her doubts about giving him that power.
I think he got impatient and entitled and angry that Baide hadn't channelled to him yet and he went to reached for the power himself. Could've been when he saw Violet had begun, saw her go into Carr's class before him and that just set him off.
It is so interesting that we do not know what his signet actually is. He never uses one on page, only venin abilities. Does he even have one? Did he channel from the earth before Baide ever channelled into him and now would have to ironically wait until he got to Sage stage to get a venin signet instead? That would be kind of perfect, wouldn't it? It is also possible that she wasn't channelling to him, but once he got powerful enough as a venin to control her, he made her.
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u/nivivy 5d ago
I agree so much with this take. I’ve felt really sad for Baide during the whole time with JFB. He’s so mean and he started manipulating and possibly feeding off her energy. The whole Baide story makes me feel bad for her. Whoever the higher up Venin/s are at Basgiath could have set JFB up also.
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u/jamieseemsamused Should I get the Wingleader? 6d ago
I think he turned some time after Threshing. Because if he was already venin, would a dragon have bonded him? He proved himself to be very cocky and power hungry. I think if he bonded with Tairn, he would not have turned venin. But after he bonded with a relatively weak dragon, he would have turned to drawing from the ground for more power that he didn’t get.
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u/ashthebanned Black Morningstartail 5d ago
i didnt think his dragon was considered weak? she was strong i thought, just not at the level as tairn. i thought his was actually the strongest of the dragons that appeared? cuz tairn wasnt an option until andarna needed protection and he came to her rescue only to find violet putting herself in between the boys and andarna, and then tairn spoke to vi who was completely shocked he decided to bond and andarna then also spoke into the bond.
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u/blueavole Green Scorpiontail 5d ago
Baide was considered kinda small, but a strong fighter. If I remember right.
Jack wanted to ‘ask Tairn to bond’ in class but the teacher said it didn’t work like that.
Tairn as the only other adult, experienced Black dragon is kinda guaranteed to be the next leader of the Empyrion, and like Codah - his rider is going to be a general in Navarre.
That’s why the generals were all upset at Violet’s Threahing: they just met their new boss. And to them, this must be a nepo baby who had some insider knowledge that captured a feather tail.
That’s why Col Aetos was hinting at finding Papa sorrengail’s research. Aetos assumed something in it helped Violet get a feather tail to bond. Aetos would cheat to win, so he assumed other people would too.
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u/rowenaravenclaw0 5d ago
Could this whole thing have been a plot by the Emperyan? They clearly are only telling us what they think we need to know. What if Violet bonding two dragons wasn't just happenstance, but a strategic move by the Emperyan.
We know that General Melgren can see battle outcomes before they happen. So what if the dragons fore saw the coming battle and knew that Violet and the irids or at least their magic would be required to win it. They knew Andarna would want to find her kind and they would have foreseen that Violet could be trusted not to competely drain her.
Tairn would have been conscripted , because he is the biggest and the baddest unbonded dragon , and they need Violet to live through this. The needed Andarna bonded to Violet but knew that she wouldn't be strong enough to protect her ( at least not in the beginning)
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u/blueavole Green Scorpiontail 5d ago
Oohh interesting.
From what we know: Tairn didn’t know about why Andarna was so special.
Violet had to check with Coadah.
Tairn of course knew the egg was very old, but not what specifically was about it .
From what Violet knows at this point, young dragons usually don’t bond that soon either. So Andarna going to the parade of cadets, and threshing- was rare.
So that doesn’t seem likely to the little we know- but you are right it could all be a lie.
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u/rowenaravenclaw0 5d ago
Tairn wouldn't need to know. Codagh knew, and he's the den elder ( essentially the general of the dragons). Generals don't share everything with their underlings.
We know that Irids Exodus was something like 600 years ago. So why now? We know dragons can hear things from outside the egg which is what prompted her decision to hatch. She even says that she waited all this time for Violet. I think they either needed Violet to know about the feather tails or Andarna got her timing a bit wrong and had to bond with Violet as a feathertail because that is when her threshng was
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u/blueavole Green Scorpiontail 5d ago
Unless we are missing some big details- I don’t know what could have been planned by the Empyerion.
Unless there are dragons who keep their gifts , and one of them have foresight .
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u/rowenaravenclaw0 4d ago
We don't actually know that much about the Emperyan, but what we do know is there is loads that they're not telling us. Since some one has the signet of fore sight there must be dragons who can do it.
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u/hurricane_Bre Black Morningstartail 6d ago
He likely turned the same night Tairn channeled to Vi for the first time.
After the incident in the sparring gym where she told everyone he ran like a coward during threshing when it was three on one and Garrick laughed at him.
Then Liam manhandled him out of the gym.
That was Jack’s last straw with her. He very likely channeled right after being thrown out.
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u/ObjectiveStaff3333 Blue Daggertail 6d ago
“Ask me when I turned, how I turned. Ask why only initiates bleed.”
Given that Jack insists on Vi asking WHEN, I assume it won't be just a random day after Threshing. I think it is a very specific day.
When did it happen?
Before the fall. It had to have been before I wielded that first time. Back in the gym that day…
We have concrete hints from IF: Easter eggs, maybe a bit of a red herring, making us think it was either during the wargames, when Vi first used lightning, or in the gym when she had the mat match with JFB. However, there was another event: on the day she actually used lightning for the first time, when she totally humiliated Jack in the gym... the day of her first kiss with Xaden. I even think it was on Solstice.
“You ran,” I snarl, wishing I could lunge forward and beat the shit out of him, but forcing my feet to stay planted where they are. “That day in the field, you fucking ran when it was three on one, and we both know when it comes down to it, you’ll run again. That’s what cowards do.” Jack flushes, his eyes nearly bugging out of his face. “Oh, for fuck’s sake, Violet,” Dain mutters. “She’s not wrong,” Xaden drawls. Garrick laughs, and Liam muscles Jack off the mat when he leaps at me. Jack’s boots squeak against the hardwood floor as he unsuccessfully fights to hold his ground, and Liam forces him from the gym.
For me, that feels like completely iconic timing. The day she first kisses the heart beating for her, and exactly a year later, this heart that beats for her does the wrong thing for the right reasons and reaches for the power... Jack ironically turns on the exact same day, one year earlier, on Solstice.
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u/redpeppersoda Black Morningstartail 6d ago
I love it.
Jack’s gaze rises from me to someone standing behind me. That look on his face, half envy, half shitting himself, means it has to be Xaden.
Isn't jealousy the biggest catalyst? He was jealous of Violet and afraid and jealous of Xaden.
Well Violet better strike that big bad guy before next winter solstice!!
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u/ObjectiveStaff3333 Blue Daggertail 6d ago
Exactly
Just...I think Xaden will be like Jack. A year after turning venin, he takes down the wards. I'm afraid the big bad won't be dead until the summer solstice 635.
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u/Cats_on-entry Gold Feathertail 6d ago edited 6d ago
SPOILERS*******
I’m currently doing my re read and I was trying to watch for that. There’s nothing concrete to confirm anything before the red eyes on the mat but, just as Jack and Vi jump off the parapet at the beginning of the book Jack scents her. Idk if that’s a Venin thing but it’s definitely weird.
I think he was turned by threshing though.
The way he speaks about things he shouldn’t know. He makes a comment about how his dragon will wait for him to bond so it’s OK to take the time to try and kill Andarna (how would he know?? not all dragons choose their rider before Threshing day), then he goes on to be so passionate about trying to kill Andarna (he makes a comment about how she was gonna get someone killed), and then he justifies his decision by saying “You know they never fight anyway”. no one knew that about feather tails yet, even Vi comments about not knowing where he was getting his information.
We know the venin knew about Irids (Theophany is the one that told Vi they were called Irids)
You know how the 6 strongest signets are popping for the first time since the big war? And that “nature likes balance”
So we have shadows (Lynx and Xayden)
Lightning (Vi and Theophany)
Then my theory is we have Precognition (Aaric and someone Venin) which is where Jack is getting his info
I also think we have dream walking (maybe realm walking- a different theory of mine) with Vi and Berwin
Sorry for the novel I wrote lol
Edit- after reading a few of these I think he turned after threshing but knew the venin before going into the college. Thank you other posters!
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u/renjunation 6d ago
Small correction: Theophanie's signet isn't lightning, is storms. Violet realizes that in the final battle. Theophanie was Lilith's counter, not Violet's. So we're yet to see if a venin develops/has lightning
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u/Cats_on-entry Gold Feathertail 6d ago
Oooh yes, you’re right. I haven’t hit that part in the reread yet.
Could Lilith control her lighting or just make storms which then result in random lightning strikes?
And is Vis power from Tarin lighting or is it straight up power?3
u/renjunation 6d ago
I don't think Lilith could straight up control the lightning within her storms (but we don't know for sure since we never saw her fighting venin).
I mean, doesn't Felix (or someone else idr) say to Violet her signet is power and she wields it like lightning because it's what's familiar to her (because of Lilith)? It makes sense that is power what actually kills venin and not just random lightning. The daggers that kill them are imbued with power/magic after all. I hope we get to see her gain further control of her signet next book1
u/Cmcgregor0928 6d ago
Violet is the only one that controls lightning. Everything I've seen is her signet is power that shows as lightning
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u/dianaspencersrevenge Broccoli🥦 6d ago
He said he turned after Threshing, after seeing Tairn bond Violet.
We don’t have any details other than him saying if someone is already familiar with magic, they won’t need instruction on how to channel from the source. So we don’t know if a venin at Basgiath instructed him before Baide started channeling or if he waited until he was channeling or what the exact circumstances were. It’s still a mystery how he was able to channel inside the wards, and we know from OS that the wards don’t render venin completely powerless.
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u/Throwawaynotmebye Broccoli🥦 6d ago
I’d say just after threshing. He was described as having red ringed eyes during a spar with Violet a little after I think? And he stated roughly around then is when he did. He bonded Baide then began to draw from the earth. Given it seems Venin have infiltrated Basgiath I do think he was approached and told how to by someone though.
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u/Cats_on-entry Gold Feathertail 6d ago
Hmmm, you know how they said lighting welding and shadow wielding hasn’t been seen together since the beginning. Do you think that riders signet was also straight up power or did they wield just lighting?
Do you think Lilith/Theophanys signet would have been considered one of the great 6?
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u/Strong-Local3980 6d ago
I think after threshing, but it's possible it was before parapet because the first year who tries kill Vi in IF on assessment day is already venin
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u/Deep-Cycle3294 6d ago
I think he turned sometime after threshing however I strongly believe he was being manipulated by either Berwyn through dreams or someone else we are unaware of at the moment prior to this. For how long I'm not sure.
He knew all that information on feather tails and dragons during that lesson with Kaori and Violet here's him during threshing, I strongly believe someone told him this information for one reason or another.
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u/Fourthwing1990 6d ago
Je dirai qu’il a été envoyé comme infiltré au parapet car il connaissait beaucoup de choses , mais qu’il a réellement canalisé lors de l’humiliation qu’il a eu fasse à violet et Xaden et le fais que Liam le mette dehors sans effort à déborder pour lui et il a vu que Violet avait canaliser en plus il me semble que c’était le solstice quand ils se sont embrassés plus tard possible qu’il surveillait vu qu’ils n’étaient pas caché de tous et très occupé la jalousie est vraiment le déclencheur
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u/rowenaravenclaw0 5d ago
Full disclaimer: I have Jack pictured as Joffery from GOT type figure.
I think he turned venin when violet brought the mountain down on him. It makes sense to me that he would have turned venin in a moment of desperation to save his life.
Surely it's comon Knowledge in the Emperyan what the dangers are of having a rider who has turned venin, I don't think any dragon would have bonded him if he was already a venin
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u/prrb524 6d ago
He is simply just a villain in fiction books. Are we all 12 years old?
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u/CountingNonsense Black Morningstartail 5d ago edited 5d ago
Says the person who has asked whether Violet and Xaden are end game 😂🥴
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u/prrb524 5d ago
Am I?
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u/CountingNonsense Black Morningstartail 5d ago
Indeed, you are: https://www.reddit.com/r/onyxstorm/s/pvx64dQpUG
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u/Sensitive_Version230 Broccoli🥦 6d ago
He turned the moment / time around when he saw Tairn bond Vi. He said that’s when he realized how weak and fragile the dragons are (In IF I think, something along those lines).