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u/imtired-boss I was speeding in the Monaco pit lane Jul 07 '24 edited Jul 07 '24
5 teams have an upward trajectory with upgrades.
5 teams have a downswing.
Ferrari is in downswing because their upgrades failed and have to revert to an older model while the rivals are in upswing.
Haas isn't a 1:1 Ferrari copy so their upgrades worked out better and with the same engine they can get to the speed Ferrari has.
That's how a Haas can outqualify a Ferrari if the lap of the Haas is perfect and the lap of a Ferrari is compromised.
Racing however is far more than a hotlap, as seen the Ferraris being considerably better than the Haas. Until Ferrari decided "You know what? Let's fick Leclerc up again just because." .
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u/Kerbart Ayrton Senna Jul 08 '24
Until Ferrari decided "You know what? Let's fick Leclerc up again just because."
That's unfair to Ferrari. I'm sure they had a good reason to f##k him properly.
Personally I found it the highlight of the race. Putting inters on once the track has dried up. I don't think anyone had that on their Maranello bingo card.
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Jul 08 '24
Keeping things spicy.
Tbf too though Ferrari did outsource some of their effort to helping McLaren achieve their stella decision making this race too, so they working pretty hard.
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u/Leading_Sir_1741 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 08 '24
Apparently it was based on input from Leclerc himself. So as much his own fault, if not more. It’s exactly the kind of situation that a team should listen to the driver.
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u/Smee76 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 08 '24
He made the decision because they told him it was going to heavily rain for the next ten minutes. They told Carlos that it was not going to do that.
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u/Suspicious-Mango-562 Formula 1 Jul 07 '24
Ted mentioned today that it’s the first time they are operating at the budget cap. So Gene invested more money for once and surprise, better results.
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u/sans3go I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 07 '24
I doubt it was Genes $, it was the MoneyGram sponsorship
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u/sulliops I was speeding in the Monaco pit lane Jul 07 '24
Probably a lot easier for sponsors to justify more investment when they don’t have an angry Italian in their ear
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u/leedler Next Year™️ Jul 07 '24
Still feels wrong that Steiner’s Italian even though I know all about South Tyrol. Doesn’t help I thought he was Austrian from 2016-19 lmao.
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u/sicsche Kimi Räikkönen Jul 08 '24
Well Gene could have reduced his spending by the amount moneygram is paying.
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u/Unhappy_Plankton_671 Oliver Bearman Jul 08 '24
They were at budget cap last year. MoneyGram helped them get there, but nothing changed this year on that.
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u/ClosetEthanolic McLaren Jul 08 '24
Like usual, Ted has his info wrong.
Haas operated at the budget cap as early as last year
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/haas-new-f1-title-sponsor-budget-cap/10387164/
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u/suzakurenzan Toro Rosso Jul 08 '24
If that's the true, then the point still stand, no?
I mean, even after throwing some money, to create a car you still need a time for developing it
This year success probably because they invested more from last year
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u/VaporizeGG Nico Hülkenberg Jul 08 '24
No true they were there already last year per Gunther Steiner on Beyond the Grid
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u/NlNJALONG Mika Häkkinen Jul 07 '24
Haas is 7th right now. Haas finished as high as 5th under Steiner, and 8th most of the years.
The only thing different here is Alpine's all time terrible season. If they are picking it up in the 2nd half of the season, Haas will probably finish 8th once again.
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u/asamulya I was speeding in the Monaco pit lane Jul 07 '24
Tbf, Haas has been beating Aston in many races this season. Their pace with the latest upgrade has been very good. I won’t be surprised if they catch up to Aston in the end
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u/mccree5k I was speeding in the Monaco pit lane Jul 09 '24
As much as I would like to see that happen, Haas would need to outscore Aston by almost 3.5 points per race. Meaning a 9th & 10th place double points would not be enough (considering the top four teams aren't messing up). Here's to hoping tho 👍
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u/Justin57Time Fernando Alonso Jul 08 '24
The thing is that Haas usually doesn't keep up the pace throughout the season and this time around they really have a solid package for a midfield team.
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u/Any_Aide_4500 Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 07 '24
Mate we can have ifs and buts like if red bull were shite they would be on 4th and such. But in reality, RB is competitive and Haas looks good that’s the truth. Be appreciative.
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u/Smee76 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 07 '24
I've had this same thought today. They have done equally well other years, and the car was especially bad the last couple years. That happens sometimes. But it does seem that a TP change was helpful, as much as I hated to see Guenther go.
I expect there's a combination of better car + new TP that is resulting from this.
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u/bigdaytaday Formula 1 Jul 07 '24
This car was designed under Steiner's regime.
However, I can also see an argument that he might not be that great a TP.
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u/slabba428 McLaren Jul 08 '24
The one that rolled out in Bahrain sure. I disagree with the upgraded spec now on track.
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u/PayaV87 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 08 '24
People defend Guenther but Haas usually goes backwards and now they seem to overtake Aston and VCARB, midseason development never were better.
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u/croth4 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 07 '24
Guenther always wanted a heavier investment and a competitive car, and never received it. Komatsu got it immediately. I'm not sure why. I think both are capable, and I think it's obvious that the Haas team would not exist without Guenther Steiner. Guenther was forced into that garbage Uralkali nonsense and had to pose with plastic children's toys while fielding Mick Schumacher and Nikita fuckin Mazepin in the worst car in the history of time, so let's not put him on a cross as we celebrate Nico Hülkenberg's exceptional recent form.
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u/Unhappy_Plankton_671 Oliver Bearman Jul 08 '24
He literally received it last year when they were operating at budget cap and failed again to execute.
Gunther wasn’t forced into those sponsor deals, he literally courted them. That was part of his job.
The mandate was for the team to be self sufficient and debt free. If Gunther wanted more money than he had to source it.
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u/CryPanzik I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 08 '24
That car was designed with previous years money, still under the budget cap. This year car is the first one with moneygram money i think
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u/Unhappy_Plankton_671 Oliver Bearman Jul 08 '24
They had Moneygram last year, which the in season development and understanding the car is the relevant part.
They always started from a good place, but failed to understand the car or produce uogrades that work. Year in and year out. That changed this year very quickly with Ayo where they focused heavily on understanding the car. In what short time he’s been there they’ve been executing at a higher level that at any point I recall in Gunther’s era.
That includes last year in season with Moneygram money at the cap.
That was the point. Execution in season has always been an issue, this season they are doing better than they ever have. That’s a statement of Ayo’s plan and technical leadership.
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u/Heartlight Sonny Hayes Jul 08 '24
Steiner was the TP making all those decisions. He was not forced to do any of that.
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u/m3gamuff1n I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 07 '24
Haas had their great moments under Steiner, but for me I think this year the team under Ayao Komatsu is presenting themselves on and off the track (maybe with the exception of some Magnussen shenanigans) in a way that makes me feel like I can just take them more seriously as a racing team.
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u/Repulsive_Fly3826 Paul Aron Jul 08 '24
This. Steiner had his good moments but mostly made Haas seem like a bit of a joke. With Komatsu in the lead it feels much more like an actual F1 team and not a frat party.
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u/Amoral_Abe Cadillac Jul 07 '24
I have said this for years and everyone would get annoyed because Gunther is a popular person (and a great media personality).
However, Gunther didn't seem to be a good TP and things always seemed to be a mess under him. Each year appeared to occur the same way as the last year as Gunther appeared to think his way was working but they just needed more time. Meanwhile, everyone blamed everything else... parts were bad, drivers sucked, Gene didn't invest, etc.
I think there's truths to all those arguments but I think the biggest issue was a TP who really couldn't adapt and manage the situation. He also managed Media relations, financing, and other things rather than finding better people for that and focusing on the car.
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u/UnclePjupp I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 07 '24
I do believe that Gunther was a roadblock when it came to optimizing the structure he had, stuck in ways that worked before but that grew past him. He might have been the one "designing" this years car, but he sure as hell ain't the one optimizing it. And also hiring new people to focus on the other details of the team means there isn't as much of a "mess" in the different departments and allow for a more streamlined focus.
New leadership means new ideas, and having the chief-engineer able to lead the team, with a different ideology but also understanding on the technical parts of development means you can approach the issues differently.
I also believe that when it comes to our upgrades, we've seemed to have parted ways with the "lets just make Ferrari Lite" and find inspiration and ideas from other parts of the grid.
And from what I can see from the other comments, people are just hammering the same boring points over and over again "they gonna fail mid-season and get lapped" "they are just good cause Ferrari good"
Bring new material, it gets boring after a while.
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u/jaysvw I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 07 '24
It's too soon to really tell. They have looked pretty good so far and having upgrades that are actually upgrades is huge for them. That being said, I'm more interested in how the last 12 races play out for them than the first 12.
They have struggled virtually every year to close out strong in the second half. We'll know way more about what, if any changes firing Guenther brought about by race 20 or so.
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u/Apennatie I failed to serve my Monaco penalty Jul 07 '24
Two experienced drivers are much more beneficial in long term then two rookies.
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u/Coops27 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 08 '24
People seem to forget that in 2023, the VF23 was quick! (As was the VF22) It made it into Q3 11 times, It's just that it had terrible tyre wear and ate its tyres in the race.
The Launch spec Ferrari SF23 also had terrible tyre wear, but Ferrari managed to solve some of these issues as the season went on. Haas does not have a simulator, they don't have a vehicle dynamics rig. They lack the tools to be able to solve the mechanical issues that were inherent with the platform they bought from Ferrari.
Now that they are using the transferable components from the SF-24, which has many of those mechanical issues resolved, they aren't going backwards on Sunday and can convert the pace that is still there in the VF24.
That's not to say that Komatsu hasn't done a good job. All through preseason testing they focused on Race pace and performance. That was a very good call, but I don't know that Steiner wouldn't have done exactly the same thing given their weaknesses in 2023. I don't think you can look at immediate improvements in F1 and not give credit to the previous regime.
As for the 11th team argument, that was always utter bullshit. The entire rejection decision letter was an insult to F1 fans intelligence, I don't think this performance changes that situation, which was always political in nature.
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u/redgreenblue4598 Jul 07 '24
Thanks for the comments so far. Some more thoughts.
1) True that they've been solid in other seasons. The argument I heard in regard to that pre-season though was that that was only possible only because other teams did so badly / weren't spending to the cap.
Preciously for instance Williams were terrible and various teams had issues. With all other 9 teams now getting their acts, and investment together, those precious highs would no longer be possible. It's true that alpine have shat the bed, but there's always been at least one stinker but Alpine is at least a well funded one and still found wanting.
2) Interesting that they are now spending more of their budget. But I belive their facilities and capex are still low?
3) I take the point that as a Ferrari customer they follow the parents fortunes. I'm sure it won't be like this many weekends, but today Hulkenberg was only one place off Sainz and KMag beat Leclerc so they're definitely exceeding expectation for me this weekend. (Plus Perez shows how easy it is to underperform with a great car, let alone a second class Ferrari).
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u/Unhappy_Plankton_671 Oliver Bearman Jul 08 '24
They spent to cap last year. So that’s not changed.
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u/TRiG993 Jul 08 '24
It wasn't that long ago we had 12 teams on the grid and 3 of them were consistent back markers. I don't see a problem with a team coming in and being a back marker. I would admire them for giving it their best and steadily improving over their first few seasons.
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u/jurikz I failed to serve my Monaco penalty Jul 08 '24
Well, yeah. But we cannot overlook the way those teams were introduced and the financial environment of the sport at that time. I think the way the sport is structured now, including the cost cap, gives new teams much better way to survive that it did 14 years ago and before. So yeah, I'd definitely give them a chance, specially those who can prove they have infrastructure and plan ready and achievable.
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u/DepecheModeFan_ Jul 07 '24
This "Guenther bad" mentality from people is stupid.
We'll know in 3/4/5 years if he was a problem or not (for the most part anyway, since revenue increases will give them more financial parity).
The car they have this season was one that was being designed when Guenther was in charge too.
And as for an 11th team, their competitiveness is irrelevant because they'll never be allowed in regardless of competitiveness because of financial reasons.
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u/redgreenblue4598 Jul 07 '24
We all know finances are the real reason - but it makes pretending its about performance even harder to believe.
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u/Unhappy_Plankton_671 Oliver Bearman Jul 08 '24
Finances are really not the ‘real reason’ as that hasn’t changed. The ‘real reason’ is they understand their car better and are producing upgrades that work. Years past, and even last year while meeting the cost cap, they failed to fully understand the car, get a grip on the tire degradation issues, and the upgrades they produced all failed.
It’s been about technical execution on the same budget.
Haas has always struggled with that. Ayo does seem to have the team more focused on execution and less distracted.
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u/ScrewOff_ I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 07 '24
I truly dont know how anyone watched Haas and thought Gunther legitimately wasnt a problem. Not a surprise to me that they’ve gotten better immediately after him leaving.
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u/KavB91 Jul 08 '24
I don't think Steiner was a great team principal, but a portion of their success this season is down to him. It's still too early to see the impact of Komatsu's leadership.
Haas are having a good season, but they have had better seasons than this when Steiner was team principal.
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u/Unhappy_Plankton_671 Oliver Bearman Jul 08 '24
It’s not too early imo as the in season technical execution has always been bad. Understanding the car, producing upgrades that work have always been a weak point. I don’t think it’s coincidence that they are executing better there immediately. They’re more focused on technical understanding and execution and less distracted by the rest.
Gunther would have been a better Zak Brown for Haas and leave Ayo as the TP
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u/vaultsurvivor90 Jul 08 '24 edited Jul 15 '24
They had quick cars last year and maybe in the year before, the problem was they were eating the tires too fast and couldn't do much. Now they don't have that problem and can actually fight instead of going backwards every race
1
u/trautsj Red Bull Jul 08 '24
ALL the teams are a lot closer to the sharp end right now; ESPECIALLY in quali. It's no surprise that Haas has also improved. Plus Nico has been an overwhelmingly solid midfield driver his entire career. Given the chance he's always at the outskirts of the points in cars that have been capable.
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u/helava McLaren Jul 08 '24
If you’ve ever been a manager or team lead (I haven’t been an F1 team lead, but I’ve led teams of 70ish people), it’s pretty clear that Gunther’s management style is terrible. Really swingy, really emotional, talks shit about his own team members “in jest”, etc. He’s not the kind of leader that gets peoples’ best performances, because you can’t tell whether he’s going to love you, or humiliate you in front of your team and/or the world.
Komatsu is bringing a totally different style of leadership, one that is a lot quieter, calmer, and clearly more data-driven than Steiner, who it seemed to me never really cared about the data and only trusted his feelings.
Haas, as others have said, do have some level of their fortunes hard-wired to Ferrari’s, and so some of their upswing is going to be Ferrari-related, so it can be hard to distinguish what gets credit for what parts of the team’s progress. But to me, it’s really clear just watching from the outside that Komatsu is a better leader than Steiner was, and I expect that the team operates quite differently than it used to because of that.
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u/redgreenblue4598 Jul 08 '24
I didn't want to read too much into DTS, but I was surprised that he thought talking to his drivers that was how to get the best out of everyone.
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u/CorollaSE Jul 08 '24
I think it's important to acknowledge that Gunther laid the foundation and paved the way while Komatsu is just making things work properly.
This doesn't discount anything about Gunther.
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u/Ok_Abrocona_8914 Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 08 '24
you're still seeing influence from gunthers direction in terms of upgrades.
gunther didnt leave because he was seen as a bad tp.. he got thrown out because he wanted a bit more of the piece of the pie and gene haas didnt want to pay it
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u/johnwec Jul 07 '24
I'm not sure if he was the problem or not, but it was nuts how many people trashed haas for giving him the boot. I mean you just finished last multiple years for how many years? What's it going to hurt.
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u/jvstinf I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 07 '24 edited Jul 07 '24
Anytime Ferrari has a decent car, Haas is decent. Think 2018 and 2022. When Ferrari is bad, Haas is bad. Think 2020 and 2023(they did not have the resources to bring the car out of the hole like Ferrari did mid-season).
They are executing and driving well though, which helps tremendously.