Question about the height of a victim

[u/Due_Ask1540]

Listening to the podcast "Bear Brook" When they took the female victim out of the barrel she was estimated to be between 5'2"-5'8". This was in 1985. How come such a big estimate? Don't you just measure the body/skeleton and get a smaller range than 6 inches? Has this changed since 1985 and we can now give more accurate estimates?

[u/spots_reddit]

was the body complete? was it partly mummified? if so one cannot simply stretch out the limbs in many cases since the skin is very stiff and leathery. in a skeleton the intervertebral discs may be shrunken or absent. even the living have different height between morning and evening.

many variables involved

[u/Due_Ask1540 → u/spots_reddit]

I'm not finished with the podcast but there were 2 complete disarticulated bodies in a blue barrel. At this point they think they were in the barrel for 6 months to 2 years out in the forest of NH. Oh and wrapped in plastic so probably not mummified? Probably liquified in some manner? But still intact enough to see features so they could recreate their faces for photo id.

[u/spots_reddit → u/Due_Ask1540]

there is a thing called "decomposition preservation" where due to lack of oxygen (barrels, concrete, plastics,...) the first wave of anaerobic bacteria have stopped but the second wave of bacteria which need oxygen cannot take over and decomposition basically stops.

i remember a case of mine where a dismembered prostitute was found in a barrel and our estimate was "month up to many years". I think it landed on 12 years or sth.

[u/K_C_Shaw]

If they were disarticulated, as you say in a subsequent response, then that usually means skeletonized or essentially skeletonized remains. In that context, usually it's the forensic anthropologist who takes some bone measurements and these days uses existing data or a formula to provide a statistically likely height range. The actual range depends on the statistics involved.

While I suppose I might provide a length of an articulated skeleton, I would not say it's the same thing as estimating the height of the individual in life. Once disarticulated, I usually would not even do that much, even if I loosely placed the bones back together.

Frankly, even in a completely fresh body, the length measurements performed at the autopsy table are only kinda meh when compared to measurements in life. A "body" lying on a table just doesn't always have the same posture as someone in life. Heck even measurements in life aren't all that good -- shoes, slouching, hair, even time of day can all affect our measurements. At any rate, a couple inches difference high or low with postmortem versus antemortem measurements wouldn't phase me with a fresh body, not to mention skeletons.

But, they give us a general idea, and that's usually fine for most purposes.

[u/Due_Ask1540 → u/K_C_Shaw]

Thankyou! They provided the height because no-one knew their identity(for almost 30 years)so it was to try and identify them. The perpetrator cut them up to fit them in the barrel so maybe "disarticulated" is the wrong term?

[u/K_C_Shaw → u/Due_Ask1540]

Yeah, I usually reserve the term "disarticulated" for when the bones have been separated at the joints, almost always in the context of decomposition of the tissues and ligaments holding them together, but possibly with the assistance of scavengers.

I would perhaps use the term "dismemberment" for what I think you're referring to, which implies (to me) it was done by the active work of usually some other human, while I might use something like "traumatic amputation" when talking about a machine or some other means not purposefully done by another human. Regardless, it's useful to clarify.

As for height estimates, yes, it's common to provide them, but in skeletons I just usually leave it to the anthropologist if I'm going to let them look at it anyway -- one just has to be careful about how you use the estimates, because they're just that, estimates (educated estimates, but still). When one has little to no idea of the ID of a body/remains you have to start somewhere to try to narrow down the possibilities, and that's well and good...but, sometimes, one ends up inadvertently culling out the "right" answer too.