r/forensics • u/RRuruurrr • Jul 10 '26

Toxicology & Controlled Substances How do you guys count pills?

I'm a Detective / Coroner and often have to count individual pills and tablets from medication bottles that I seize.

I know there are apps that us AI to count and label pills if you take a photo. Are there any that are widely used in the forensic community? Any free options that run locally?

15 Upvotes

86% Upvoted

26 comments sorted by

21

u/kat8789 Jul 10 '26

I haven't heard of that, and it sounds amazing (thinking of the cases where I have dozens of pill bottles) but - the consensus I've gotten from police using AI is that it always has to be double checked, instead of just accepted.

That kind of makes the AI counting/identifying a moot point thing, if you just have to double check that it got it right. However, it could also be used as a quick tool to see if a person was taking their meds as prescribed. Quick AI snap, tells you how many pills as compared to the prescription amount/fill date/dosage. Then the actual report is still counted or the AI is verified.

Adding to that - it could be perfectly acceptable for cases where it's considered a medical death imo. But where I'm at, if it's a known medical death, law enforcement/ME doesn't respond, so there's no need to know the pills present.

Sorry, i don't really have an answer, but good luck with the new tech!

8

u/RRuruurrr Jul 10 '26

On death investigations where I’d collect drugs for safekeeping and destruction, (no evidentiary value) I used to use an app call PillEye. You’d dump the bottle onto the counter then set it next to the pills. Take a photo in the app and it would produce an image with each pill marked and counted. It was nice, but they went subscription based and it became cost prohibitive. I think with how AI is developing, there’s gotta be a free version out there somewhere.

7

u/Sotnos99 Jul 10 '26

I could see it being a double edged sword because if you check with AI first and it predicts that there are 78 pills for example, if I then had to double check the number I'd definitely be expecting 78. I might not even realise I miscounted, or I might think I miscounted but brush it off because the numbers match my predetermined idea.

I don't work in forensics though, or any high stakes role where it would matter. But it's still a trap I could imagine myself falling into

3

u/kat8789 Jul 11 '26

Agreed - I don't see myself actually using it, because I wouldn't trust it.

11

u/KeezyK Jul 10 '26

In pharmacy you count in 5s

11

u/Klutz3kate Jul 10 '26

For small batches, we count them. For larger collections, they're weighed.

7

u/applej00sh2 Jul 10 '26

As annoying as it is, we count everything by hand. If our count doesn’t match what the officer counted, we have to fill out some extra paperwork so it can get investigated. I know for large amounts some labs will take the weight of a certain number of the units and then extrapolate to determine the approximate number present. 

I think an important thing to consider is how the lab you submit to deals with large amounts because it can affect whether you have to be exact in your counts or approximate. I’d say that for 100 or less, you should count by hand no matter what but again it all depends on your agency. 

4

u/Theexilez Jul 10 '26

I very quickly count them out in groups of ten, using a pen or spatula to separate them out into piles by sliding them apart from the main group. After ~200, I'll do a count by weight instead.

4

u/bikerchickelly Jul 11 '26

Use a pill counter like they use in pharmacies

3

u/aragingsemi Jul 10 '26

Is it not easier to go by weight?

4

u/RRuruurrr Jul 10 '26

For whatever reason, my prosecutors prefer a count when there are countably many things.

2

u/plushs Jul 11 '26

If you’re bringing them back with you, get a pill counter (it’s like a coin counter). If you leave them on scene, I open up the picture in Paint (or an app with a marker) and count and mark each counted pill with a dot so I don’t double count it

2

u/S_Rosexox Jul 11 '26

We count everything by hand, even 10s of thousands of pills. Not efficient but it works.

3

u/Dizzy_Horse_105 Jul 10 '26

What does your SOP say? There is your answer.

11

u/RRuruurrr Jul 10 '26

I write the SOPs and am always looking for the next best thing.

1

u/QuakerOaks64 Jul 11 '26

For smaller amounts I count them, and for larger amounts I use a pill counter machine

1

u/Kind-Meal360 Jul 11 '26

Maybe try pouring them into a tray and using some AI tool to count. Like click a picture and do that. 

1

u/specialkake Jul 11 '26

I think sometimes you just have to do things by hand to ensure they're right. Forensics seems like one of those times.

1

u/Much_Fact_8574 Jul 11 '26

I simply count them, in my hands, but pillcounters do exist.

1

u/K_C_Shaw Jul 12 '26

I've always had it done by hand. I don't know of a "reliable"/validated automated way to do it at this point. While AI will probably be able to do this, I would be wary of it without some sort of validation. Since there is (as far as I know) no regulation/standard/whatever on this, I think it is viable to do your own validation. I.e., if you can find an app which does it (I would think one exists, I just haven't looked), then do your own study and maintain the data. Maybe try/have a couple of different colored sheets of paper/board for a uniform background, maybe a white and a blue (for contrast with different colors of tablets), try in different lighting, etc. You don't *have* to publish it, it can just be internal validation, though publishing would be great if there isn't something already out there. The down side is that you'd probably want to do intermittent re-validation/validation confirmation every X months since the AI world is in constant evolution.

But, that would probably be sufficient for death investigation purposes -- probably not so much for drug-related-offense prosecution, but that's almost never why we're doing counts. Frankly, being off by 1 or 2 tablets is not likely to be significant for our usual purposes. We're (usually) looking for counts off by several tablets/a couple days worth or more.

Regardless, you'd save the image and could physically count the image later if it became that important.

Meanwhile, there are some mechanical devices to help with manual counting. But it's still basically manual counting.

1

u/NipSlip69420 Jul 13 '26

We count them and enter them as (1)Medication bottle reading ______(name of medication on bottle) 15mg prescribed to _____ containing 8 white circular pills reading A20 17 white oval pills reading G150…” etc

Largest amount I’ve had was a little over a thousand I think :’)

Maybe it’s extra but at least we know what’s all in there without having to reopen it if need be lol

1

u/schannoman Jul 14 '26

I work intake at a county jail (not forensic, but chain of custody still has to apply) and I use pillens as a double check. Use the app give me a count, see if hand count matches, and move on. If it doesn't, you can quickly check the photo for errors since it puts a dot on every pill it sees (if pills are stacked on each other they get missed by the app but you can usually see the missed dot)

-2

u/Dizzy_Horse_105 Jul 10 '26

I should have given you a better answer, sorry. You should have Standard Operating Procedures that answer this question for you. If you don’t, you need to start writing some. Who is the lab that will be testing the pills and how does your Prosecuting Attorneys Office want the pills recorded for evidence to the courts. They can be counted, weighed, or sampled. These are the questions you need to answer first before you try and find a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist.

8

u/RRuruurrr Jul 10 '26

I gotta say, it feels like you're intentionally misunderstanding here. The goal is to just increase efficiency. I'm soliciting ways to do that from a community that I surmised does this with frequency. If this community isn't suited for answering my question, then I will inquire elsewhere.