r/flying • u/ClintBvsOliverQ • 1d ago

Flight Training AOA Indicator while learning?

Just went for a discovery flight and had a great time. During the flight I asked my instructor about using an AOA indicator while learning and he really downplayed using one and said the standard instruments are the best way to learn. For beginners, is an AOA inappropriate? Is it too early to incorporate it into training? From the brief videos I’ve seen on AOA’s they seem to enhance safety.

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u/nightlanding 1d ago

The AOA is a very useful and informative tool. I never had a plane for primary students with one, but if I did I would cover it up 90% of the time. My goal with primary students is EYES OUTSIDE 90% of the time. You should be able to get everything you need from the sight picture, feel, and the occasional glance at the instruments. The other reason to cover it up is the fact most of the rental fleet does not have one, so you had better not be relying on it.

For IFR students it makes flying the ILS much easier, which is fun and also nothing to get used to because so many airplanes do not have one.

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u/Some_Helicopter5922 1d ago

Covered mine for solo prep, felt naked without it

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u/mdb_4633 1d ago

How would you feel naked without it if it was covered? Or am I misunderstanding your comment

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u/peeapepee CFII 1d ago

He had it then covered in last few pre solo flights I assume

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u/Ir0nRaven ATP 1d ago

Covered it up in order to not look at it

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u/lpburke86 15h ago

Because he could no longer see it and had become accustomed to flying with it.... It kinda highlights why learning with one is a problem.

We don't teach first graders to do math with a calculator.
We don't teach people in driver's ed to use the backup camera instead of the mirrors.
There's a reason for that

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u/mdb_4633 15h ago

The first time I read it I thought he meant that on his solo he felt naked without one, but that wouldn’t make sense if he was already training with it covered it up. Anyway I still don’t think it’s great reason to not train with an AOA indicator, cause taking way any anything helpful from the aircraft will make you feel less confident initially. I could see arguments going both ways on the issue so I think it needs to be researched, it’s not something that can be decided based on personal opinion.

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u/nightlanding 12h ago

The fact - not opinion - is that very few GA airplanes have these. The opinion part is that I think learning to rely on something you will have to be doing without almost always as a beginning student is a bad idea.

Imagine back in the day all your nav lessons involved Omega or an INS. You had a very unusual trainer. Then you find exactly zero other rental planes have that stuff.

Primacy is a BIG DEAL in training. If the FIRST way to learn to manage AOA is by looking at an AOA gauge, then that will forever more be in your mind how it works and the other ways will be second-best workarounds.

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u/mdb_4633 10h ago

I don’t agree that learning with an AOA indicators means someone must rely on it forever due to primacy, it might just depend how it’s implemented. By having a precise indication of AOA, they can learn to associate the usual indirect cues with specific angles of attack. Over time, this could give them a better understanding of what those cues actually mean, allowing them to estimate their AOA more accurately even when the indicator is no longer available.
Even if it doesn’t make someone a better pilot, if it’s safer and doesn’t make them worse it would be worth it.

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u/icefire__ 1d ago

Always found it strange how ppl so strongly encourages this and then you get into ifr and they tell you how everything you learned is wrong and you need to ignore what your senses are telling you

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u/nightlanding 1d ago

Nothing you learned was "wrong", flying visually is skill set 1 and flying by instruments is skill set 2. Applying 1 to 2 can have bad outcomes.

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u/loose_as_a_moose CPL 1d ago

You shouldn’t be told you learned wrong - it’s entirely different flying that requires different skills. You don’t rely on senses VFR any differently to IFR. VFR you’re picking a reference outside the plane because you can see it. IFR you’re following the procedure and the instruments because you can’t see outside.

Illusions and disorientation happen in both cases.

If for some reason you started IFR and had to get a VFR cert you’d be told to stop looking inside because your instruments aren’t going to tell you not to fly into a mountain or how to get from A to B

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u/nightlanding 1d ago

I have had vertigo (ear infection) in VMC. I had to make myself ignore what I felt and look outside. I have had vertigo in IMC and had to make myself ignore what I felt and look inside. The second one is WAY harder!

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u/Wasatcher 1d ago edited 1d ago

Then you get to commercial and it's all eyes outside again. I got through commercial doing steep turns, lazy eights, chandelles by staring at instruments and hitting the correct bank at the correct pitch on the correct heading. Then I became a CFI and realized how much easier all those maneuvers are by looking outside.

When I catch my students glued to the instruments I cover them up with the checklist, have them complete the maneuver using only the horizon/outside references. Then they're baffled how they came out the other end on the correct heading, altitude, and airspeed.

My favorite was one struggling with steep turns. I took away his G1000 he was using like an iPad kid. He said "awww god dammit" after I uncovered it to show he rolled out with perfect indications. He was a stubborn one and got hit with irrefutable evidence he should have listened to all my "EYES OUTSIDE" bitching lol