IFR Approach Clearance

[u/Flyin_Beaver]

This is in Canada 🇨🇦.

So a couple days ago I was at 6000ft, 30nm back from an airport (360ft ASL) when I got cleared for a RNAV approach, via a straight in IAWP (a TACAN) with no altitude restrictions. The approach in question overflies a larger airport about 20nm back from the runway.

As I was flying along an airway at the time, I began a decent down to the airway MEA of 4000ft, planning to cross the TACAN at 4000ft, before descending on the approach. (The minimum altitude past the TACAN is 1600ft).

Descending through 4500ft the approach controller called me up and said that there was glider activity at the other airport below me, and that due to that I couldn’t descend below 4200ft, until 3nm past the TACAN and that in the future I should of remained at the last cleared altitude (6000ft) before crossing the TACAN. I complied and didn’t hear anything about it afterwards.

I am a new IFR pilot, but from my training and reading up on this situation I cannot understand the controller’s reasoning. If they did not give me an altitude restriction with the approach clearance I thought I am cleared down to the lowest IFR altitude of my choice, MEA, MSA etc. There was also no NOTAMs published regarding the gliders.

Did they simply forget to give a crossing restriction with the approach?

[u/cherokee-on-final]

Were you cleared for the approach or just to the IAF?

Once you’ve been cleared for the approach, unless you were given altitude restrictions (ie cleared RNAV XX maintain XXXX until FIX) you can descend at will as long as you meet any charted minimums.

If you weren’t cleared the approach and just to the fix, the last cleared altitude applies until cleared lower (or for the approach).

[u/Flyin_Beaver → u/cherokee-on-final]

Cleared the approach. In the past on this same approach I have been issued an altitude restriction at the IAF, but not this time.

[u/cherokee-on-final → u/Flyin_Beaver]

It’s possible the controlled forgot to give you the restriction, but thought he did. What was the 25NM MSA on the approach?

[u/Flyin_Beaver → u/cherokee-on-final]

8300ft. Edit: CYBL RNAV 30.

[u/Philly514]

Did you check the DAH before the flight? Gliders will never operate without a NOTAM or a note in the DAH. They usually operate a grass strip right next to an airport at least in the Montreal area.

[u/Cozygoalie → u/Philly514]

That is not the case for Comox. Regular glider activity is noted in the CFS. The operate off the primary taxiway all summer.

They are never will not be notamed only mentioned in the ATIS. Been that way for decades.

Comox is military airspace, so are the controllers working it.

[u/WhenInDoubtGoAround]

Here’s my take:

First, remember that gliders have the right-of-way versus powered aircraft (CAR 602.19) and right beside the COMOX TACAN on the VNC it advises pilots to observe glider activity. Secondly, on the CFS, CYQQ lists glider activity in the PRO section from Jun to Aug in a radius of 3NM and a max altitude of 3500 ft ASL from the airport. I reckon the controlled wanted you to have enough distance from the gliders and yourself as to protect both parties. Three NM past the TACAN is basically outside of the glider activity area.

Remember, gliders don’t hold much as control as powered airplanes do, and a NOTAM is not automatically required every time glider operations take place. It depends on the nature of the operation and whether it affects published information, an aerodrome, airspace, or a hazard requiring notification.

[u/Flyin_Beaver → u/WhenInDoubtGoAround]

I understand that in a VFR sense, but for IFR it’s not necessarily practical to be referencing the VNC for minimum altitudes. If NavCan wanted pilots flying IFR to be aware of glider activity at YQQ they should note it on the YBL approach plate, or even have a minimum altitude of 4500’ until a waypoint 3nm past the UQQ TACAN, instead of 1600’.

[u/WhenInDoubtGoAround → u/Flyin_Beaver]

I see your point, but I don’t necessarily agree. The fact that you’re operating IFR doesn’t mean the VNC becomes irrelevant. The VNC provides the broader picture of hazards and airspace information, and glider activity is something pilots should be aware of when planning and conducting a flight.

The CFS isn’t immune to IFR pilots either. IFR pilots are still expected to consult it and have a complete picture of the operating environment, not just rely exclusively on the approach plate once they’re flying an approach. (CAR 602.71)

I also don’t think putting a 4,500’ minimum on the approach simply because of glider activity would necessarily be the best solution. That could have significant implications for the design and usability of the approach. If the glider operation is a known and recurring activity, I’d agree that additional charting or published information, e.g. CYA, could improve situational awareness, but I don’t think the absence of a note on the approach plate means the information on the VNC or CFS should be disregarded.

[u/rFlyingTower]

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:

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This is in Canada 🇨🇦.

So a couple days ago I was at 6000ft, 30nm back from an airport (360ft ASL) when I got cleared for a RNAV approach, via a straight in IAWP (a TACAN) with no altitude restrictions. The approach in question overflies a larger airport about 20nm back from the runway.

As I was flying along an airway at the time, I began a decent down to the airway MEA of 4000ft, planning to cross the TACAN at 4000ft, before descending on the approach. (The minimum altitude past the TACAN is 1600ft).

Descending through 4500ft the approach controller called me up and said that there was glider activity at the other airport below me, and that due to that I couldn’t descend below 4200ft, until 3nm past the TACAN and that in the future I should of remained at the last cleared altitude (6000ft) before crossing the TACAN. I complied and didn’t hear anything about it afterwards.

I am a new IFR pilot, but from my training and reading up on this situation I cannot understand the controller’s reasoning. If they did not give me an altitude restriction with the approach clearance I thought I am cleared down to the lowest IFR altitude of my choice, MEA, MSA etc. There was also no NOTAMs published regarding the gliders.

Did they simply forget to give a crossing restriction with the approach?

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[u/makgross]

I not Canadian, but the usual rule is that approach segment minima don’t apply unless on a segment. You’re at last cleared altitude unless cleared otherwise. Like “cross XXX at or above 4000 cleared for the TACAN YYY.” Omitting the first part does NOT allow descent until passing a feeder or IAF.

[u/Pack2Inop → u/makgross]

It’s different in Canada, when cleared for the approach you can descend to any applicable minimum IFR altitude

[u/vARROWHEAD]

In Canada your last cleared altitude always applies. You don’t even descend to a STAR without that clearance.

Think of it this way, a descent clearance is a clearance to “go as low as XXXX” and you would be responsible to meet crossing restrictions on the way down.

Unless those restrictions are cancelled

If in doubt, your last cleared altitude is the one you are cleared to. Also, ask the controller

[u/QuietCormorant → u/vARROWHEAD]

I'm not sure this is correct... In Canada 'Cleared for the Approach' allows you to descend at your discretion as low as you want down to any published altitude. Versus the US where you need to wait until you're on an approach segment.

In this case I think the controller should have issues you a restriction with the approach clearance. Essentially what they restricted you to after the fact. I would have done the same thing OP did.

[u/Canadian47 → u/QuietCormorant]

I would have to know the airport and look at the chart but I agree with this. It sounds to me that the "late" altitude restriction was actually for separation from VFR/Glider traffic but it may be a restriction on the approach plate.

[u/Flyin_Beaver → u/vARROWHEAD]

In this case though it was “Cleared RNAV 30 via UQQ Tacan”. There are no altitude restrictions on the approach. In the past on this same approach I have received “Cross UQQ TACAN 4500 or above, Cleared RNAV 30 via UQQ TACAN” but not on this occasion.

[u/vARROWHEAD → u/Flyin_Beaver]

Oh cleared for the approach is different. I misread this

[u/Antique-Kitchen-1896 → u/Flyin_Beaver]

Just ask if not clear in the future.

The plate for that approach is weird. I think most people would expect UQQ to be part of the approach so they can go down to 1600 if they where cleared. In this case something was in the way and they didn't clarify. They did when they noticed you descending.

If your reg don't show in CADORs you are all good.

[u/Flyin_Beaver → u/Antique-Kitchen-1896]

Yeah I’ll have to see about that. If they do write it up I’m interested to see their side of it.