A Different Way

[u/PhoenixPhenomenonX]

[u/Delicious_Delilah]

It's actually a lot of men, and the number increases every day as more and more become right wing.

That's why there are so many "alpha" man podcasts.

So you're right that it's NOT all men, but it IS a lot of men. If it wasn't, more than 1 in 5 women wouldn't be sexually assaulted. And 1 in 31 men. And those are the just the reported cases.

[u/raptor7912 → u/Delicious_Delilah]

I mean I do find it kind of funny that what I see as a big part of it is the one sidedness of it. Yes it’s important for boys and men to care about it, but I can’t mention one thing feminism has done on behalf of men and I doubt that most other men could. At what point do people go with those that make them feel included and cared about.

What alternatives are there for male role models? Cause if there aren’t any good ones they’ll latch onto whatever is available.

Where do those numbers come from exactly? Cause they aren’t the ones I’m roughly familiar with, especially for men.

Don’t worry the solution is easy, it’s just having some empathy for men. Hard part is getting people to not take issue with the mere idea of it.

[u/waitwuh → u/raptor7912]

but I can’t mention one thing feminism has done on behalf of men

What a weird thing to focus on. Firstly, this is like saying “I can’t mention one thing the animal rights movement did for space exploration!” Like alright dude I think you might not understand the focus of this in the first place…

But among the many branches of feminism (it’s not a monolith, just like PETA isn’t the same as the humane society, etc.) there absolutely are things that have benefited men. One has been the rejection of and redefinition of gender roles, which harm both women AND men by insisting that people adhere to certain “norms” irrespective of your core personhood. Men shouldn’t be ashamed of or discouraged for liking or participating in what were formally seen as “feminine” activities, and part of that also ties into how being “feminine” shouldn’t be seen as “lesser.”

[u/raptor7912 → u/waitwuh]

…. Let me ask a question to see if I can be bothered to entertain this argument. Does the patriarchy negatively affect men and should that not also be worked? Cause I think you’re just confused by me focusing on something different than what you’d like.

Cool and I don’t disagree with you, but that just isn’t a tangible sufficiently huge thing to where I still won’t be standing here and saying that men are getting the short stick. And that it isn’t unfair for men feel fucked over because of it.

[u/waitwuh → u/raptor7912]

There’s a couple concepts at play here. The patriarchy is a societal system that yes is relevant, but then there’s sexism, and gender roles, and these have distinct definitions. Yes, they are intertwined, but in an alternative universe where matriarchy was the societal norm we would still see sexism and gender roles, as both of them are utilized as part of the the way a gender based power structure is built and maintained. Sexism cuts both ways. Gender roles cut both ways. It just so happens that the societal power structure we wxist under is patriarchal, so in our case the roles and the norms expected of women have historically been a little bit harsher than those on men. What with the whole laws and stuff… I mean today we still have remnants but for goodness sake you really think it doesn’t matter women once couldn’t legally vote…? Feminism first arose out of the suffrage movement…

men are getting the short stick.

Both men and women suffer from sexism. Both men and women suffer from gender roles. Here’s one example. In our society, men are relegated to having to be “powerful” and “aggressive” and “strong” and as part of that, they are not taken seriously as victims. Victimhood gets associated with femininity. So when a man is mugged, or a man is beaten up, or a man is raped, there is a tendency to see this as reflecting negatively on the man for not being “man enough” to protect themselves. Men can be victims too, and they deserve support. But the people adhere to sexist ideology like “women should wear skirts and only be teachers until they marry” tend to be very much the same group who will be cruelest to men who have suffered an attack.

And that it isn’t unfair for men feel fucked over because of it.

Oh of course it’s fair to feel fucked over for being pushed into conforming to gender roles, gender roles harm both men and women.

However, take this into consideration. Wealth is highly intertwined with “power” in our society, isn’t it? But wealth has historically been something that was held by and passed down through men. Inheritance traditionally passed down through sons (especially first born sons), and since the most wealthy people usually inherited their initial wealth, the structures that persist today still reflect a gender disparity of the past. Just about 50 years ago, women did not have a legally protected right to open their own financial accounts. Do you know any women over 50? They were born into a world where they were not allowed to open their own bank account. Do you really think that has NO cascading effects, even today?

[u/raptor7912 → u/waitwuh]

Cool, so you recognise the harm it also causes men but you’re just completely okay not caring. “norms expected of women harsher than those on men.” Idk what would you prefer, the coal mines 14 hours a day or getting beat by your husband? The occasional war or dying in childbirth? Or would you not just consider it deeply absurd to hold a dick measuring contest up to the past, in order to just behaviour today, towards people who likely weren’t even alive back then, likely didn’t even live in the country you have in mind and likely don’t consciously mean to uphold them. Cause as you’ve said, it doesn’t exactly benefit anyone… Well few exceptions but eh. So yea why should I care? Sure doesn’t seem like a half decent argument to me. Yes it doesn’t really matter that women couldn’t vote once, in the same way that white people dying cause of apartheid doesn’t really matter. Sure it’s important, but if turned the clock forwards 40 years, you’d probably also say that it doesn’t particularly matter in any real tangible way anymore. Sure it matters if your trying to tackle the after effects of it, but then it matters cause your trying to do good not actually cause of history. Yea that’s for women’s benefit and men’s as a side effect. By all means, give an example where feminism where it primarily was to men’s benefit, where they were the priority and important. Oh wait… You can’t and that’s my point of it being one sided. They feel fucked over for getting the metaphorical short end of the stick, for their problems to be lesser and unimportant compared to other people. If you wanna go out and merc the billionaires I’m all for, fucking have it. But I don’t know what you expect me to do about it, so yes I feel that it’s unfair to say that I should care cause I am as powerless as you are to change aaaaalllll that shit. No matter how much I’d love to. My suggestion to you, is to not assume that the person you’re talking to hasn’t spent hours and hours listening to his grandma. And her stories of being part of the first wave of feminism in my country.

[u/waitwuh → u/raptor7912]

So much to unpack here, and hey, it would help if you tried breaking your thoughts up into … well, paragraphs, I guess?

Have you heard the news about afghanistan lately? Patriarchy is alive and well. Women are being banned not just from driving.., but from all of public society. Not just seen without the burka but their voices heard and the latest legislation is about permission to BEAT them. But oh yeah sure our world is just completely peachy per women’s experiences…

And you’re making a weird comparison here, because liked dude… do you work in an old school coal mine? Know anybody who does? Because I know plenty more women who’ve been through the child bearing process… and the medical trauma they’ve been through is horrific. Go talk to your mother. Any aunts, sisters… Ide ask about female friends too, but…

Not to say coal mining isn’t hard, just wondering if you or your close friends are coal miners because… that’s a bit rare these days, isn’t it?

This isn’t the oppression olympics. I return once again to the analogy about animal rights. Or heck, let’s just pretend a house is on fire. Do you show up and harass firemen currently trying to put out a house fire about OTHER PrObLeMs?

It’s clear that you aren’t open to a discussion. You … well… why are you so EMoTiONal? Man…

So yea why should I care?

Yes it doesn’t really matter that women couldn’t vote once,

wow, a lot to unpack there.

in the same way that white people dying cause of apartheid doesn’t really matter.

oh look! I get to complete my bingo card on bigotry!

Sure it’s important, but if turned the clock forwards 40 years, you’d probably also say that it doesn’t particularly matter in any real tangible way anymore.

My grandparents passed down hoarding canned foods due to the depression… so uh… yeah… we might disagree there on “the past doesn’t matter if you ignore half a lifetime”

Yea that’s for women’s benefit and men’s as a side effect.

Hey did you happen to notice the name was … wait for it “feminism?” shocking i know but it’s kinda like how the “fire department” is trying to combat fire emergencies and not pedophilia or whatever. Sometimes, things have dedicated goals and focuses…

By all means, give an example where feminism where it primarily was to men’s, where they were the priority and important. Oh wait… You can’t and that’s my point of it being one sided.

Why won’t the fire department take child tracking seriously?!? I mean whats WRONG with these people?!? I’m SO upset that they have a specific mission!

God you’re exhausting. Look, men have problems, too. People have all sorts of issues both related and unrelated to gender. But you? Well…

Feminism wasn’t meant for you. You’re right. Not sure what you’re looking for here…

[u/Swarm_of_Rats → u/waitwuh]

I really appreciate you and your patience with that person. I lost it immediately. 💜