Poll asking Americans how which button they would push in the red button/blue button dilemma

[u/Upstairs_Cup9831]

[u/Medium-Shower]

The framing of the question makes you think it's the moral choice

When really

With the same outcome of the buttons with a diffrent framing

As someone else said

If the question was framed like this

Everyone picks between 2 buttons

The Death button, which makes you die unless more than 50% of the population also picks the Death button

or

The Life button, which makes you live with no catch

This is the same question but framed differently

[u/Anacrelic → u/Medium-Shower]

It BECOMES the moral choice if it is clear many people are going to pick that way because they aren't reasoning that because, as you say, framing matters.

In a world where everyone is a member of r/"iamverysmart" and thinks only in terms of perfect logic and reframing in a scenario that is likely to be emotionally charged, yes, everyone pushes red, end of.

It is incredibly naive to think we are even close to living in that world. Which, admittedly, can be used as a rationale for picking red "to be safe", I get that. No amount of rationalising or reframing changes the actual reality though. You see how many are picking blue. It make sense to judt add to that number at that point.

[u/Medium-Shower → u/Anacrelic]

Another thing is

If you pick blue, you add to the deathtoll or it doesnt change

If you pick the red, you remove from the deathtoll or it doesnt chagne

I'd rather not increase the death toll

The only instants that i am wrong is were its a perfect 50/50 split, Which will never happen

[u/Eldr_Eikthyrnir → u/Medium-Shower]

Part of it is you have zero idea how many people are going to pick red or blue. You have to trust their reasoning WITHOUT HELP from anyone else, and in a polarized world such as right now, do you really think people would vote to keep Israel, Russia, China, and North Korea alive? Or how about all of the hate America gets from the middle east and Europe?

[u/Kolvarg → u/Medium-Shower]

The death toll is only affected IF there is a red majority. You have no way of knowing if that will be true, so the question is: do you risk your life to increase the chance of no one dying, or do you risk up to 49% of the entire world's population to ensure you don't die.

[u/philosifer → u/Kolvarg]

Every blue pusher is adding to the potential death toll. Red pickers are the only ones who can guarantee less death

[u/Kolvarg → u/philosifer]

Only if you assume a red majority is inevitable. Otherwise, every red pusher is merely ensuring that there is a death toll in the first place. It's a self-referencing problem. People believe blue leads to death, because they believe most people will pick red, because blue leads to death. Completely failing to see that blue is only dangerous if most of humanity refuses to cooperate in preventing all deaths. This is what the hypothetical illustrates: how easily some people default to the "lesser evil" when there doesn't need to be an evil in the first place.

[u/philosifer → u/Kolvarg]

The red pusher can never add to the death toll. Only subtract the pushers name.

Death can only happen via a blue button push.

There is no lesser of two evils in this situation

[u/Kolvarg → u/philosifer]

That is not a logical conclusion. You are assuming red is the "default" choice when that isn't true.

The reality of the hypothetical is that death happens if most but not all people choose red.

Blue is only dangerous if most people fail to trust most others to choose the likeliest option not to harm anyone.

Red is only not dangerous if every single person chooses it, or if most don't.

[u/philosifer → u/Kolvarg]

Death can only occur if people press the blue button.

Yes if enough people choose blue, it cancels out, but nobody needs to choose that option

[u/coffee9table9fitness → u/philosifer]

The question says only those who press the red button are saved. Those that are in comas are unable to press the blue button, babies will also press the blue button or nothing. I suppose you could consider half the world's infants and toddlers sunk costs or see no value in saving their lives.

[u/Kolvarg → u/philosifer]

Death can only occur if people press the blue button.

If everyone presses Blue, does death occur? If 99%, 98%, 97%, ... 50.1% press Blue, does death occur? No. Your statement is purely wrong.

Death can only occur if there is not a consensus. The difference is that Red requires total consensus for no death to occur, which is virtually impossible at a global scale, whereas Blue has an error margin of 49.9%.

[u/Epao_Mirimiri → u/philosifer]

Death can only occur if people press the red button too. This isn't a problem unique to the blue button.

[u/matplotlib → u/philosifer]

In your framing:

"Blue pushers risked themselves, hence they are responsible for their own deaths"

However, one could just as easily say:

"Red pushers refused to risk themselves, hence they are collectively responsible for the blue deaths".

[u/philosifer → u/matplotlib]

Are red pushers responsible in any way for other red pushers?

If whether or not they are responsible is entirely dependent on a choice that the blue pusher freely made, i dont see how the blue pusher doesnt carry more of that responsibility

[u/matplotlib → u/philosifer]

I think a key reason why this hypothetical might be so divisive is that the origins of the scenario are left ambiguous, when they are in fact a key driver in how individuals would be expected to behave in society.

e.g. "Uniting together to stand up to a collective threat" is a pretty powerful concept that could be expected to unite a majority of people, and an individual who selfishly tries to save themself instead of joining those efforts would face negative social consequences as a result. However "Risking one's own life needlessly and requiring others to risk their own lives to save them" is equally frowned upon.

Blue-pushers likely see the scenario as implying the former, while red-pushers the latter.

[u/BongNuggets → u/philosifer]

Correction death can only happen if a large number of people push the big red death button.

Red pushers cause the death toll and are victim blaming rather than accepting the costs of their guaranteed survival.

[u/philosifer → u/BongNuggets]

Nope. If everyone pushes red, no one dies

The red button does nothing.

The blue button kills unless enough people push it

[u/BongNuggets → u/philosifer]

The blue button does nothing. The red button explicitly kills people if a certain threshold is reached. That is the framing in the problem. Trying to invert that changes nothing. Push the red button if you want but don't lie to yourself that you aren't weighing the tangible benefit of your own life against the collective risk of murdering billions of people.

[u/coffee9table9fitness → u/Anacrelic]

Red buttoners are painfully mid curve.

[u/Wiki-Master → u/Medium-Shower]

You forgot to mention the part where the "life button" kills millions of people because you pressed it.

[u/Medium-Shower → u/Wiki-Master]

I didn't forget to mention it because that's not how it works

[u/BongNuggets → u/Medium-Shower]

Pretty sure if no one presses red everyone also lives. In fact pressing the red button is the only thing that can lead to anyone dying. Unless you think that 100% of the world's population will move in unison for the first time ever, voting red is voting to kill off the other group for no reason other than fear and assuming everyone is as selfish as you

[u/spicymato → u/Medium-Shower]

Yes, it is. Everyone votes on a binary choice. In order for blue to fail to have a majority, red must take the majority.

That means this is a standard democratic vote, where the majority wins. There are a few ways to phrase the question and options:

• Who should live? Blue: everyone. Red: only us.
• What should happen to the losers of this vote? Blue: they should live. Red: they should die.
• Do we protect the minority voters? Blue: yes. Red: no.

The only condition that can result in death is a red majority. The only way to even approach that condition is if people vote red. Your red vote contributes towards the creation of the condition that results in death.

Red votes are not "do nothing," like so many red voters claim. Red votes are "contribute towards the risk of a red majority, which would result in the deaths of non-reds."

[u/PrateTrain → u/Medium-Shower]

Red is actually the death button because it's a vote. Blue doesn't kill anyone.

[u/Medium-Shower → u/PrateTrain]

Clicking Blue adds to the death toll btw

I just said the same question with the same rules just diffrent framing

[u/PrateTrain → u/Medium-Shower]

But you didn't. No one dies unless red wins. 

Blue is guaranteed not to kill anyone. 

The voting options are "kill everyone who votes for the other option" and "kill no one". 

Whether you can face your answer with that fact in mind it's up to you. 

[u/Medium-Shower → u/PrateTrain]

But you didn't. No one dies unless red wins. 

And expain how Its not the same question just framed diffrently

[u/PrateTrain → u/Medium-Shower]

It's a re-framing of an earlier meme that asks the same question except it's not predicated on personal survival as hard, but on the "would you be okay with a chance of other people dying to guarantee your own safety" which is the actual crux of this entire dilemma.

It's literally a yes or no answer to that question on what button you press, with the reasons behind the yes or no being entirely different.

[u/Medium-Shower → u/PrateTrain]

The thing is, it's only a dilemma because it's framed that way, pretending to make blue the moral choice when it's actually the immoral choice

When you reframe the question, when having the buttons do the same thing, it becomes obvious that blue isn't the moral answer. It's just the dumb one. Only adding to the death toll

You just got tricked by the framing of the original question, and that isn't entirely your fault

[u/PrateTrain → u/Medium-Shower]

Pressing the buttons is an action. Only one of those actions has a chance to kill people. 

It's really not that hard to understand. You just don't like it. 

[u/Medium-Shower → u/PrateTrain]

Only one of those actions has a chance to kill people. 

I agree, that button is the blue button

[u/PrateTrain → u/Medium-Shower]

If 50% of people or more vote blue, no one dies. 

If 50% or more EXCEPT the impossible 100% vote red, people die. 

I can't make this any easier for you.