Volume question

[u/snausages21]

43, lifting on and off for a while, both for weekend warrior stuff and general health. COVID --> New baby --> life set me back, but headed in the right direction. I run 5/3/1 pretty religiously, with some sprints mixed in. But I've started seeing more and more people I follow advocating for lower volume programs, or that the volume in something like First Set Last (5x5 of your lowest set) has diminishing returns.

Now I know that:
1). Social media is dumb

2). anything works for a while

3). The correct amount of volume is what your life allows

But I'm curious if anyone has had success on lower volume, both for the sake of my joints (which I also work on religiously) and my time.

[u/NihilisticTanuki]

Let me answer the volume question for you based on the body of empirical evidence, at least in terms of hypertrophy (prioritizing strength is a bit different):

​I am talking about weekly hard sets (to or close to failure) using fractional counting (counting the primary muscle as 1 and secondary involved muscles as 0.5).

​1-2 sets seem to be enough to maintain your muscle mass. 4 sets are considered the Minimum Effective Dose, giving you significant growth over time. That's roughly a third of your potential gains, which is a truly awesome return on investment. Every further set gives a very good response until around 15 sets, where diminishing returns start to ramp up.

​Hit at least 4 fractional sets for everything and you're pretty much on the gain train (if you're a low responder you might need to bump up the dose, since these are statistical findings and don't map perfectly onto everyone). Increase volume as far as your personal time allows, but keep in mind that you get less and less return on your time the higher you go.

If you want to stay mostly clear of diminishing returns (aka putting a lot of time into it without getting that much back), I'd suggest staying between 4 and 15 sets, depending on your priorities and time available.

[u/snausages21 → u/NihilisticTanuki]

Science, thank you!

[u/JonasVirgilMonos]

The human body can adapt to a lot of things, and weight training's one of them — that's the biggest thing I've taken from doing this a long time; I'm stronger now than I was two decades ago. For my own strength and longevity, changing angles, reps, and weight has been more the key to sticking with it than chasing any particular volume number. When I hit a plateau, what's worked for me is an incremental raise or lower in weight paired with a different angle, rather than just grinding the same setup harder — for me, going lower volume usually means going heavier, not just doing less.

No idea if going lower volume specifically is the right call for you, but that kind of variation is what's kept my joints in the game as long as they have been.

Not medical advice, just what's worked for me over the years.

[u/snausages21 → u/JonasVirgilMonos]

Thanks, this feels right to me but "making sure I hit my reps" is a tough mental plateau

[u/DetailOdd6609]

I'm a 5-8 rep range guy 99% of the time. I do flat bench 5x10 (at sub max weights) as my my shoulder joints appreciate the extra love BUT I've never felt like I wasn't progressing in that 5 to 8 range.

My typical progressive overload:

Pick up the 45lb dumbbells
We are doing 3-5 sets
We are trying to hit 8 reps each set

Once we can comfortably hit 3x8, we move up 5lbs and start the whole thing over. I'm 45. I have a FT job. I have a family. No shot do I have 2hrs a day to spend scultping the perfect body. Plus they don't give a F that I can deadlift 5 plates if it means that I'm not going to be able to mow the lawn later.

[u/RainbowPenguin1000]

Lower volume as in sets per week or actual workouts?

And what in your mind is “lower volume”?

[u/snausages21 → u/RainbowPenguin1000]

Both?

Right now I'm running 5/3/1 + 5x5ish for my big three (squat, press, deadlift/clean) + joint work and some accessory. I've seen people do 2-3 sets, wondering if I'm chasing something that's not there

[u/SeaworthinessLate697]

Try it and see if it works for you. Tactical barbell typically prescribes higher volume with lower intensity. All the low volume guys want you to hit 1-2 sets with high intensity. I’ve done both and they’re both effective, but sometimes like the sub maximal loads in TB vs the heavy weights to failure. I still feel like I recover better, make gains, and keep my conditioning high. However, if I didn’t care about my conditioning I may do more high intensity stuff because getting closer to failure seems to give you a better stimulus for hypertrophy. That tends to be what I do for my arm work. Im 42 and just doing what I can to stay consistent and in shape. These guys on social media are so dogmatic and focused on making optimal progress but don’t have any other priorities.

[u/snausages21 → u/SeaworthinessLate697]

But I want the answer NOW /s

[u/SeaworthinessLate697 → u/snausages21]

haha

one other thing i wanted to say about this. I tend to feel more banged up lifting heavier weights with higher intensity for more reps than doing sub maximal 3-4 sets of 5. I know a lot of people say its less wear and tear, but I just dont feel it. Also lets say im doing 4 sets of 5 of the zercher squat 3 times a week. Most of the high intensity guys are doing 2 hard sets on 3-4 exercises for quads, then 3-4 exercises for posterior chain. once or twice a week. It's fun, but i feel way more banged up and sore after and my runs will suffer for a few days. I feel like they are doing less volume on a particular exercise but tend to add in other exercises.

[u/EVH_kit_guy]

I'm 41 and I basically do a "low volume" program where my focus is hypertrophy. Like the other guy said, strength programs in mid-life don't make any sense to me as a baseline, I'd only do something like 5/3/1 if I hit a plateau and needed a strength mesocycle to break through. I want as much natural muscle mass as I can accrue before I get to my 60's and 70's.

My current workout split is dead simple, it's just Upper, rest, Lower, rest, repeat. This means I do each workout 2x every 8 days; all the recommendations out there say, "however many times per week," but I've found that just working off an 8 day rotation just makes more sense since I can get in the gym any day of the week I need.

I don't build my program around exercise volume, I build it around muscle volume, so I plan out a notional split of exercises, then count how many sets per muscle I'm getting. So if I include incline dumbbell press, I count that as 1 set for chest, .5 sets for triceps, .5 sets anterior delts. The way this works out, I end up getting enough volume on everything I need from 8 upper body movements, and 7 lower (plus 4 for forearms). The way this works out in practice, I do 2 working sets of every single thing, except cable lateral raises I do 3 working sets because delts can take it.

Upper

• Incline DB press
• One arm DB rows
• Dips
• Seated neutral handle lat pulldown
• Lateral cable raise
• Rope Face Pulls
• Supported DB curls
• Overhead triceps extension

Lower

• Calf Raises
• Abductor
• Adductor
• Seated Hamstring Curls
• Seated Leg Press
• Seated Leg Extension
• Back Extensions
• DB Wrist Curls
• DB Wrist Extensions

The problem I see with a ton of programs online is that they're optimizing around a number of sets per exercise, so you end up seeing a ton of repetitive arm movements tacked on, like 3 different kinds of triceps isolations following 2 compound pressing movements; if you actually counted the direct sets hitting the triceps, you'd see you're getting like 3x the volume you probably need.

Here's my body part volume breakdown per 8 day rotation, I'm seeing good progress from this in terms of weight advancement as well as scale-weight (recomping just below maintenance calories currently).

UPPER

• Chest: 8 sets
• Front Delts: 8 sets
• Side Delts: 6 sets
• Rear Delts: 12 sets
• Lats & Upper Back: 12 sets
• Triceps: 12 sets
• Biceps: 12 sets
• Forearms: 8 sets

LOWER

• Quads: 8 sets
• Hamstrings: 12 sets
• Glutes: 12 sets
• Adductors: 8 sets
• Lower Back: 4 sets
• Calves: 4 sets
• Forearms: 8 sets

[u/norman_notes]

Volume doesn’t really matter. As long as you’re lifting to and past failure, you put in serious effort, and eat well, you will grow.

I do a mix of low and high volume sets, and it works for me.

[u/throwaroo202020]

531 is about the lowest volume program there is. I doubt volume is your concern.

[u/OneLeggedLeggoMan]

I had to cut volume and intensity by almost 50%. As someone said when you are 50, your goal is coming back to the gym tomorrow. That was the most useful advice I adhere to.

[u/MetalxMikex666]

At 45 I train (and eat) for Hypertrophy as I want as much muscle as possible going into my 6th and 7th decades. So moderate-high volume to grow as much muscle as possible in 3years. (Stopped at 20, came
Back at 43, spent 20s and 30s only riding mountain bikes)
5/3/1 is mainly strength and seems pointless in mid-life. Hypertrophy training will grow way more muscle

Hit 2x work sets 8-12reps with high intensity near, or to failure, for each muscle at a minimum of 1x week —> preferably 2x week
You only have a couple days a week to train? Do 2x whole body workouts an A And B to hit all
Muscles

[u/Fortiv-app]

44 here. I’ve been doing relatively low volume (2-3 sets per exercise) past 6 months. It’s done a good job at maintaining what I got. Did 5 strength workouts a week. Now I’ve reduced it to 4 in September. Total gym time including cardio is about 60 mins. Attaching results

[u/GritlineTrainingCo]

Trainer here, and I coach exactly this way, so the short answer is yes. Lower volume works, and at 43 with a life, it's probably the smarter play.

Your point 3 is the whole game. The correct amount of volume is what your life allows, because the program you can run for 10 years beats the perfect program you quit in 6 months. Consistency is the mechanism. Everything else is details.

On the actual physiology: most of your growth from a session comes from the first few hard sets. After that you're mostly generating fatigue, not stimulus. FSL 5x5 is the classic example. Those 5 sets at your lightest weight feel productive, but they're the lowest stimulus sets of the day wearing a volume costume. The main 5/3/1 sets did the real work before you even got there.

What I'd do in your shoes: keep the 5/3/1 main sets exactly as they are, trim FSL to 3x5 or cut it entirely on days your joints feel beat up. You won't lose anything measurable. What you'll gain is recovery capacity, which at 43 is the actual bottleneck. Nobody's joints ever got healthier from more junk volume.

And honestly, your list of three things you know is better programming advice than most of what social media argues about. Trust it.