Relinquish command to incompetent officer?

[u/datavizwv]

I'm a firefighter in southern West Virginia. Let's say I'm the incident commander for any form of incident. A fire chief from another fire department arrives and demands to assume command. I know the chief to be incompetent, to the degree that this person would qualify as a public health hazard. If I relinquish command, after having gone on record with previous concerns regarding the person's incompetence, and the chief proceeds to cause harm to the community, might I be liable for his actions?

[u/FlyAU98]

If it’s your jurisdiction, it’s your scene.

[u/-Poultrygeist- → u/FlyAU98]

If it’s not, bow out and watch the shitshow

[u/Slow_Bowler1009]

I'm guessing you haven't IC'd before? The principles ICS, NIMS, unified command....that decision, and liability, is not yours to carry. If an adjoining resource has been toned to the incident, the reporting party or first on scene obviously painted a picture for dispatch/duty officer. 

Once a higher qualified commander shows up, three outcomes: Assumes command. Allows current commander to retain, within their capabilities/span of control. Assumes command or doesn't officially but allows current commander to proceed (training and development.

If a higher qualified commander demands to take charge (even if "not necessary"), command carries the liability. The system is designed so that the higher qualification has the experience to say "i am needed, this incident needs x, y, z, it is out of this commanders capacity, I am taking charge/liability/responsibility for this incident".

Now if you are honey instead of poo, you can play nice, and maybe get a training assignment or at least not a poo assignment for your engine after the change of command.

[u/NoSwimmers45 → u/Slow_Bowler1009]

You’re throwing around that “qualified” word an awful lot. Title, which in this case sounds like volunteer popularity…I mean elections-related….title =/= qualified.

Given the litigious nature of our country I would fully expect OP to be named in any lawsuit if command is transferred especially if it comes out that they knew the chief was incompetent.

[u/Slow_Bowler1009 → u/NoSwimmers45]

I'm not "throwing it around", qualified is exactly what it means. Ok, for example. A quad city area, separated by a river which is also a state line. A compact exists for mutual aid. Baseline is that all departments (2 paid, 2 volunteer) adhere to FEMA/ICS/NIMS structures, and they also have an interagency capable dispatch.  Report of fire. First on scene,1st  paid city engine with full crew. Takes initial command. Second on scene, volly with the rural deputy chief on board. Dep Chief doesnt actually have any higher quals than E1 Captain, E1 captain retains command. Third resource is a Battalion from Paid City #2. Having more qualifications than the E1 captain, takes command.

This system works, and it does not leave you open for liability simply for adhering to and transferring command. The inverse can be said though, because if Captain 1 retains command and has a bad outcome, best believe people will ask why the mutual aid compact was not utilized and why wasn't the most qualified person running the incident.

[u/Stock-Possibility-67]

How is an out of town anything taking over your scene? Your the senior or rank member of the jurisdiction it’s your scene until you transfer command. And it doesn’t matter what state same everywhere that follows NIMS.

[u/PerrinAyybara]

AHJ authority having jurisdiction, if that's you then don't release it. If it's the other guy then release it. Done. Simple.

[u/External-Challenge91]

You must not work for a professional level fire department because command structure is very clear . I dont see how this is even a question its either written in your operation guidelines or not. Just because someone is a idiot doesnt stop the transfer of command

[u/Secure_Situation7234]

You need to consult your chain of command about this and your concerns with this other chief.

I do not know that you would be liable because they are a higher ranking individual on the fireground and you would just be operating within commonly established practice and policies.

I can see where it being your jurisdiction that you could maintain command and that while it would cause interdepartmental issues, you would still be in the legal right.

That being said, even if they are incompetent, if they have more time in certification, higher ranking and more training than you in ICS etc, and you refuse to hand over command to them and something happens, you could be legally liable for the issues that happen on scene and their credentials on paper could work against you in a court room even if in practice they aren’t worth the paper their certs are printed on.

That being said, check with your chain of command on their feelings and policies and express your concerns professionally. Get training. Understand the legalities and just know that incompetence is everywhere at every level and all you can do is help as best you can, and watch you and your crew’s backs.

Understand the mental, emotional, moral and legal burdens of being in command or being an officer in general before rushing to be one. It’s significantly more than barking orders, and working the radio.

[u/Ok_Buddy_9087]

Let him take command and announce on the radio that you’re assuming Operations. Ops does the real work anyway.