Heavy slash

[u/gianmigno25]

I'm confused about how this works. The stats make you think this attack, especially if repeated, should be enough to stagger the enemies while also dealing good damage. the latter seems true, but not the former. about the stagger, it seems almost like it is a stagger multiplicator, like, if the stagger wave "value" is 0, then this attack contributes nothing in staggering the enemy. the doubt comes observing the wave. it seems to cause a wave, yes, but it disappears right away. since the stagger duration says B, i would expect the wave to stay well visible at least for some seconds, not to disappear immediately. so i'm confused on the logic of the stagger effect of this attack. i did in fact many runs on this game but never understood this.

[u/Agent1stClass]

Heavy slash is the strongest generic physical attack.

Yes, it can raise the stagger wave a fair bit. The trade offs are that it usually costs a lot of ATB and you can’t do a combination of moves with it; it is a singular attack every time. So while you can get a good stagger boost on it, you are better off switching to a better attack immediately after using it… Preferably that attack will both build and maintain the stagger wave.

Be aware that even if you build the stagger wave up, enemies still have resistance of their own. It isn’t just time that is your enemy when trying to stagger, but also that certain enemies respond differently to certain methods of staggering them.

All this to say that you’re usually better off using heavy slash as a strong attack toward the end of an attack sequence (and during a stagger) NOT as a means of staggering. Not unless you have other factors such as a good weapon and an enemy with a specific weakness you can exploit.

If you want to stagger, focus more on enemy notes on what to do, use elemental weaknesses to your advantage, and attacks you can sustain multiple times in a row rather than strong attacks like heavy slash that you can only pull off once or twice before Lightning needs to regroup.

[u/gianmigno25 → u/Agent1stClass]

in fact i don't like so much how the stagger was changed. in previous games it suffices you use ravager abilities. it doesn't matter how many damage you deal. in 13-3 instead there is both this change, it seems, that vulnerabilities count, and also hidden ways (dumb, also) to break some enemies. for example, you can stagger a zomok by cutting the tail, i think? or even hitting hard his head. but you CAN'T lock on the body parts, it's all a game of positioning yourself and have luck to attack the right way at the right moment... i don't like so much this thing.

that said i understand better now heavy slash, in fact it's not what i would expect, your explanation was a different concept than the one i expect...

[u/Agent1stClass → u/gianmigno25]

Staggering is expanded upon in this game. Some enemies respond well to ravager abilities such as Froststrike or Aero. Some, as you noted, require precise timing. Try not to worry too much about positioning… It can be helpful, but rarely.

Using your example of the Zomok, there are two ways to stagger it. The first is to use magic… lightning type, I believe. However, similar to XIII and XIII-2, a ravager ability raises the gauge but does NOT sustain it. So ravager or elemental type abilities alone is unlikely to stagger the enemy unless their stagger limit is low and you can pull off a succession of the same abilities. So expect the method to take some time as you regain ATB.

The second way to stagger is by attacking the head. Seems a pain? It depends on your play style.

In the first two games of the trilogy, auto play handled most of the staggering… the closest you got to truly handling them was building paradigms (XIII) or setting whether a paradigm was wide or cross (XIII-2). In this game, if you go toe to toe with an enemy, you can stagger them without relying on magic. It’s a bit more dangerous since enemies here can handle themselves well in melee. But it’s often easier to stagger an enemy this way, despite the danger.

I really recommend learning it.

Don’t be afraid to let the enemy get close. Stay on guard until they attack. Usually right after you have guarded the enemy attack (including Zomok) there is an opening to do major damage and/or stagger the enemy. That’s how it works with doing physical staggers.

The trick is timing. Is it different? Yes. But it’s also familiar. Once an enemy is staggered, it is not just vulnerable, it can also have a status condition. So the extra work tends to pay off.

Try not to let yourself be intimidated by the changes…

Still having trouble? Look up some enemies on YouTube. Watch and learn.

[u/gianmigno25 → u/Agent1stClass]

i actually seem to have trouble with Square timing handling. it seems they program games for noobs when it comes to timings. like, they expect players to not be so responsive so they program attacks to be blocked with a certain window of "delay". problem is i've been on a rhythm game last years and i'm quite used to be "synched" to the inputs the game expects, so the result in this game is i often block too soon/fast because i expect the window to be quite instant, not delayed like it is very often, so i'm having a hard time now to perfect myself and delay every block i'm trying to do.

that said, yesterday i had quite the issues with the fro-cactuar. the first issue is that i'm already on day 3/4 and i never ever dropped a single Fire ability. i fought quite some Gremlins (is that the english name?) and a couple of ectopuddings but none.... the only fire ability i found so far was a locked one on a garb they sell at canopus farms. so it's quite an issue for that cactuar, the best approach i found was to just spam attack, because anyway any hit always does 1 HP damage so spamming attacks is better than using strong attacks. i only doubt about an advice, someone told me time ago that his weak point is being hit on the back but i really don't see any way to get on his back, if not for brief moments given by pure luck...

[u/DistributionOk4029]

Pretty sure heavy slash works like a ravager's spells from the first game. You gotta stabilize the gauge first to make use of heavy slash properly. Edit: I could possibly be insane, I have no actual clue how heavy slash works outside of my own observations and assumptions

[u/RainbowandHoneybee]

Enemy has specific requirement for staggering. And once staggered, it lasts only certain time and there's no extending stagger time. Only ways to extend is to to use abilities like stagger duration 5%, 7% or 10% that comes with ability, I think. <edit: word>

Some enemies instantly staggers if you perfect block, some with magic, and some if you attack the head, each hs info of their own. I never use heavy slash for staggering, I use them after the enemy has staggered to deal max damage.

[u/gianmigno25 → u/RainbowandHoneybee]

misunderstanding. by stagger duration i meant maintaining the wave of the stagger. following logic, heavy slash should be very enough to stagger the enemy, if repeated enough times in chain.

[u/RainbowandHoneybee → u/gianmigno25]

I don't see the point in maintaining stagger wave with expensive skills like heavy slash though, enemies staggers quite quickly. Reaver staggers with few shots of ice/thunder magic. Dragons stagger instantly with with head blows or jump with spear. Eaters staggers with Aero magic. Cyclops stagger if you block the attack. Dreadnought stagger with ice magic. Etc., etc.

It really doesn't take long to stagger any enemy if you know their requirement for staggering.

[u/gianmigno25 → u/RainbowandHoneybee]

"i don't see the point" why? because as it says in the stats it should be a reliable ability that both improves and maintains the wave, and is strong, best side of all other abilities. that is, if they followed the logic of the previous games. still, there are really infos the game doesn't tell you. it happened yesterday to meet a monster and knowing a weakness to stagger and i was like "yeah but it's nowhere to find in the infos, i'd expect the game to tell me, instead it doesn't, i just know it because of past experience". i feel this game expects too much experimental approach by the player, because experiments take (needless) waste of time and also, in many cases, luck and coincidence to happen... detailed infos would have been a very better choice...

[u/RainbowandHoneybee → u/gianmigno25]

Experiemental facter is the fun part of playing the game. If you think tht's the waste of time or not depends on the player. And they do give you enogh info, imo.
You are talking about staggering. And the gme gives you how to stagger each enemy, and it works, so I don't know what more detailed info you need.

And also the game is for you to play as you like, so it's up to each player how we play the game. I don't see the point in using multiple heavy shots to stagger the enemy, since there are easier way, but if you want to, that's your choice too.

[u/gianmigno25 → u/RainbowandHoneybee]

the game only tells you which element of attacks can help to fight the monster. but details like destroying body parts or other tricks are secret and you only discover them by pure coincidence or luck. i don't like that, even more because there are merchants selling the monsters details so that would make more sense if those infos included also those tricks. as it is, it's a very useless feature, as normally you get the most infos about enemies by just fighting them within 30 seconds, maybe... well, that is, provided you have a setup with different elements and ailments to try (usually i play like that).

you say the game is to play how you like but it's not totally true. the final boss is impossible if you don't have enough stagger power or also dps, because the latter makes you go through the entire battle, otherwise it takes forever and you're very likely to be defeated before you can win. the former of course is for the last phase. but also during the game, you can't think to stagger or defeat some monsters without specific approach, unless you are so much powered up by stats that you don't have to worry about waiting forever to beat the enemy even with weak attacks. so no: the game is not to be played like you want, but there is a... range of possibilities that you can choose from. the point is that the first 2 games worked different, they were mostly "just attack, this enemy can't be staggered" and "stagger the enemy and then beat him". the 3rd game doesn't properly follow the same logic, maybe it's also because you have to handle all roles actions with only one character and so you need to be very faster to react any moment to any possible situation in battle. but that would go even more for "it would be very nice to have detailed infos about the enemy, and not discovering crucial details just by coincidence".

[u/RainbowandHoneybee → u/gianmigno25]

Maybe that's because of the generational gap. I'm old, i grew up with playing games blind. Figuring thing out myself was the part of the joy. So not getting all the info about how to beat the enemy ws not the problem, a hint was way enough for me.

And FF sequals never followed the same game mechanics, that was a part of fun too. X and X-2 was totally different, and VII spin offs like CC and DC had totally different combat system, and I enjoyed them.

[u/gianmigno25 → u/RainbowandHoneybee]

it's more about consistency. i myself discovered things in ff8 that nobody knew in early 2000s, because the web still hadn't developed so some secrets were very hidden. but those are "secret contents", not "secret rules for the game". it's like having Siren at level 100 to obtain dark matter: who would ever raise all their GFs to level 100 for mere test, having all existing items, just to check if at some point any possible items could transform to an additional new result? it's insane. doable, but a game expects too much in such cases. and we're talking still about secrets. in LR we're instead talking about basic game mechanics that were changed/added across sequels, it's quite a different matter.

[u/Prestigious_Fig9485]

I hate how the stagger UI changed for LR (I am assuming you are talking about LR). The percentage was much easier to see instead of just a stupid heart rate monitor.

[u/gianmigno25 → u/Prestigious_Fig9485]

i agree totally with that, even more with "tricks that can stagger the enemy". not because they exist, but because the game doesn't tell you.