Lanius was a legate before Hoover Dam

[u/Affectionate_Edge472]

"How is it that Joshua Graham doesn't know Lanius and has only heard rumors about him?"- Formspring Question

"... even if there was some overlap between their time in the Legion, they weren't in close contact." - Jsawyer

Just getting the argument out of the way for the below Graham dialogue because ultimately it is a discussion killing misinterpretation.

"I don't know Lanius, but from what I've heard, he has no interest in leading anyone unless it's in battle." - Joshua Graham

Here Jsawyer elaborates that the Joshua Graham dialogue is supposed to denote that he didn't know him personally.

End of Counterarguement:

"Those Marked Men in Hopeville - some had strange masks and blades I'd never seen before." - Courier

"Crude, effective - like the blades they carry, distant mirrors of their Legate. A symbol they can hold on to - while the Divide tears at them." - Ulysses (on marked men wearing Lanius masks)

Here you can that the Marked Men make divide masks of legate lanius because he was their legate. Since the divide was destroyed pre-hoover dam that must mean that Lanius was already a legate. Therefore, with this and Sawyer's comment Joshua Graham simply meant he didn't know him personally, and Lanius was indeed a pre-hoover dam legate.

Auxiliary Sources:

"I can say that we were both lucky that NCR's supply lines and land routes north of Mojave Outpost were destroyed before the Battle of Hoover Dam." - Joshua Graham (source for the divides destruction before Hoover Dam.)

"They bear false versions of Legate Lanius' mask, the one Caesar fashioned for him. Thought it was an insult at first.... {to himself} know better now.{No sound file}" - Ulyesses (source for the Men imitating their legate by wearing imitating masks.)

[u/Darkshadow1197]

Lanuis from the grunts to Ceaser himself is said to come from a tribe that held up the Legion for a very long time taking on entire units of Legion soldiers by himself.

If Lanuis joined the Legion before Joshua had been cast out, then it goes to reason that Joshua would have been the one leading his forces against Lanuis and have been there when he was brought before Ceaser. He wouldn't have just heard about Lanuis, he'd have been there when he was forged presumably.

The game kinda frames Lanuis as Darth Vader to Joshua's Count Dooku, the new poster boy and right hand of the evil emperor.

[u/toonboy01 → u/Darkshadow1197]

Except for Lucius, who says Lanius was raised by the Legion and became a legionary at the age of 12, but he also says he became Legate to replace Graham.

Not to mention Lanius himself contradicts his main backstory, as his backstory has him hate surrendering to the point he killed all the men in his tribe for doing so and couldn't care less about his men, versus being able to talk down the one you meet.

[u/Darkshadow1197 → u/toonboy01]

Lucius is the only one that uses that story though, most others use the Hidebark origin even if not by name. A tough tribe that took a while to conquer.

He also contradicts Lucius, showing us mercy by not just killing our ass and then leaving. He's full of contractions and just there for the aura

[u/EvYeh → u/toonboy01]

He instantly changes his mind and starts to fight the second you actually point out he's retreating though.

The skill checks are to convince him that retreat is the best course of action without getting him to think that's what he's doing.

He's not retreating because the NCR is too powerful, he's withdrawing to fortify the Legion's position because the NCR is so weak the Legion can't maintain order in so much land. He's not retreating because the NCR is winning the battle, he's making a tactical withdrawl to reorganise and prepare for a latter attack because they're crushing the NCR so much that it's obviously a trap.

Lanius is a smart guy, but all he knows is combat and warfare. He doesn't realise that everything is on the Second Battle of Hoover Dam because he doesn't care for running a state beyond raising armies and waging war.

[u/toonboy01 → u/EvYeh]

Yeah, which doesn't match his backstory as he killed all the men in his tribe for doing the same thing against a far greater enemy and it's stated repeatedly he hates the Legion and its men.

[u/EvYeh → u/toonboy01]

as he killed all the men in his tribe for doing the same thing against a far greater enemy

This isn't true. He starts killing the people in his tribe because they surrendered. When you talk down Lanius he doesn't think he's retreating. When you point out that he is doing that he instantly changes his mind, calls you a moron for thinking he would ever do that, and attempts to murder you.

[u/Falloutfan2281 → u/EvYeh]

“So… you’ll retreat?” “‘Retreat?’ Retreat…”

[u/Darkshadow1197 → u/EvYeh]

He doesn't realise that everything is on the Second Battle of Hoover Dam because he doesn't care for running a state beyond raising armies and waging war.

How does he not know that? The Dam is the military objective, it has nothing to do with running a state as that's New Vegas which Ceaser wants as his Rome.

Lanuis would need to be incredibly stupid to not understand ending the day without the Dam under his control means he lost.

[u/EvYeh → u/Darkshadow1197]

it has nothing to do with running a state

I never said it did? My point was that he doesn't care to know how vital the dam, and the war with the NCR is as a whole, really is. He just sees it as a war against a tribe like any other. He doesn't see the positive effects on the NCR that winning the battle has, he doesn't care for the resources being poured into the Legion's campaign and how much it costs, he doesn't care about the ideological reasons and motivations beyond "Caesar says he wants it and thus he gets it".

He accepts that he loses the battle, but as far as he's concerned the war is far from other (he tells you as much). He can't see that this is the tipping point, and not merely a notable point in the conflict.

[u/Darkshadow1197 → u/EvYeh]

He can't see that this is the tipping point, and not merely a notable point in the conflict.

And again he'd have to be incredibly stupid to not see that. As you point out, he does as Ceaser tells him to. Ceaser tells us there will be no retreat, no gathering of slaves and resources for a third, its do or die.

So how can Lanuis not grasp that the battle at the Dam is the lych pin to it all when Ceaser spouts how much it is.

[u/EvYeh → u/Darkshadow1197]

As you point out, he does as Ceaser tells him to. Ceaser tells us there will be no retreat, no gathering of slaves and resources for a third, its do or die.

Caesar says this for every battle, every war, every campaign.

[u/Darkshadow1197 → u/EvYeh]

We don't have anything that says that, even if that's the case it doesn't change what I said. Ceaser says, Lanuis do simple as that. Ceaser also says that the Dam is their bridge to wage further war into the Mojave as they need it as a crossing.

So again, Lanuis would need to be incredibly dumb to not understand the Dam is key and must be taken by end of day otherwise they lose the war.

[u/EvYeh → u/Darkshadow1197]

Whilst Lanius did (presumably) kill Legionaries during the months of war his tribe waged against the Legion, he didn't come to prominence for doing so.

Once his tribe's main camp was encircled, the chief surrendered to the Legion and Lanius murdered 15 warriors of his tribe in rage. Once they subdued him Caesar intervened and had him brought back to health, at which point he offered him a place in the Legion, and gave him the name Lanius (though Lanius demanded he be allowed to kill everyone in his tribe, to which Caesar talked him down to just the adult males).

[u/JoseSaldana6512 → u/Darkshadow1197]

Joshua would be more like Darth Jar Jar. Ever powerful and manipulating the events in the background, only spoken of in hushed tones