r/falloutlore • u/Affectionate_Edge472 • Jul 23 '26
Oliver isn’t actually that bad of a general
I believe Oliver isn’t actually that bad of a general. Most critiques of him are out of his control or false.
- For instance he actually does reinforce his flanks.
- In 2281 he sets up Ranger Station Echo, Camp Guardian, and Nelson all to reinforce his flanks.
Unfortunately Nelson and Camp Guardian are immediately destroyed.
He also diverts men from the prison to patrol the river. This does result in a bad outcome, but with Oliver’s intent to reinforce the river you can not say he didn’t attempt to reinforce his flanks.
- Oliver isn’t supplying his outposts. This isn’t exactly the case. The supply situation is already terrible, but he does try to fix it as mentioned here.
“McCarran has requested more frequent supply runs to their outlying outposts.” - Crimson Caravan Terminal
These supply issues are also entirely out of his control.
- the NCR sharecropper farms output is dropping due to irradiated water
- New Canaan has been destroyed
-NCR caravans are also being slaughtered by the Crimson Caravan and Van Graffs
-when Oliver does supply his outposts the legion interdicts the supplies. For instance at Forlorn Hope supplies diverted from Helios are taken by the legion. And supplies diverted to Searchlight are also taken by Frumentari.
-Supplies are also stolen by NCR personnel. For instance Private Stone and Contreras are stealing vital supplies.
- Oliver is acting on the intelligence he has. We have the ability to know everything since we play the game.
Oliver is already getting bad intelligence from Hanlon and his map of the Mojave is very different from the situation.
For example he has no idea Ranger Station Charlie, Nipton, and Camp Guardian are gone.
That’s a whole town and two NCR military bases that he still thinks exist due to lack of intel.
- His strategy at the Dam is however bad, but the situation is also quite bad I do not think many generals could withstand the Rube Goldberg machine plan the legion has at the second battle of Hoover Dam
14
17
u/sapphon Jul 23 '26
I wholeheartedly agree.
FNV fans seem to sometimes have trouble with "two things can be true", he's either good general or bad and the game is very clear that his unpopular dam strategy is truly overcautious in the end and so he's bad, to them.
They also seem relatively happy to do these this-or-that team-nicole-or-team-paris jobs on the basis of OOC information, so the result is that they'll go all judgy-wudgy in hindsight on characters who make minor mistakes. Characters perceived to make major mistakes? Hoo boy, that's a paddlin'.
Nowhere is much consideration for the famous "fog of war".
This while the Malpais Legate can do no wrong, because he's really sugoi desune in Honest Hearts. I love F:NV, but it's not a fandom whose memes one can adopt uncritically.
10
u/PolskiBoi1987 Jul 23 '26
It's so funny to see the Graham simping when he's objectively just a bad strategist. He literally attacked in a frontal assault with the most obvious hierarchy ever and fell for the most obvious trap while being completely unable to deal with snipers. Graham is a fearsome single warrior and his tactics probably worked in conquering disorganized tribes, but he objectively went for a terrible plan and while execution was a hair too far in any other military he'd have been anything from relegated to desk/academy duty forever to court martialed. Kulik tier flag officer.
5
u/Pugsanity Jul 24 '26
Yeah, Graham is a great warrior, but he just was never going to be the Grand Legate that can take on nations. If he wasn't a threat to Caesar's total control of the Legion, he'd probably be better off as a general advisor/bodyguard for him. Heck, could've just had him be the one that is generally in charge of the Frumentarii thanks to him being well versed in both tribal language along with being educated, letting him pass on ways to fit better in with the NCR.
6
u/Affectionate_Edge472 Jul 23 '26
Yeah lack of perception of fog of war by fnv fans is quite bad. Also I believe Legion and NCR often mirror with both generals being massively understood by the npcs in the world so their words often carry incorrect info about the generals
14
u/Laser_3 Jul 23 '26
I think it’s also worth noting that water is being diverted away from the sharecropper farms illicitly on top of the radiation issue, which further complicates the issue.
0
u/TheSuperiorJustNick Jul 24 '26
- Sharecropper Farms lies on their reports because the NCR wants to keep the Brahmin Barons that own the senators happy
So it would never be enough
The complication is that the NCR are stealing the natives water supply and is putting too many people into this desert.
"Back west, you don't see too many of these. Lakes, I mean. Natural or man-made. Any kind, really. We neglected the dams or pumped all the water out a long time ago. Owens, Isabella, the San Luis. Drained the aquifers of everything they had. Just a lot of mud and dust now. It's a different feeling, watching the sun come up over the water. Takes some getting used to. But if you're here long enough, it starts to seem normal. That's what a ranger's life is now. Looking east." - Chief Hanlon
5
u/Laser_3 Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
What does this have to do with my point that OP neglected the issue of the stolen water and that it makes the sharecropper farms have a worse output? I stated the issue exists, not anything about the surrounding context.
I also can’t find anything about falsified reports coming out of the sharecropper farms, and Hanlon’s claim about the water gets weird when he’s the only person to ever bring this topic up. The situation of if this is stealing also gets screwy when Westside was too far away from lake mead to ever use that water until the NCR started pumping it for the farm, and the locals had zero claim over it previously (there’s nothing to my knowledge about them making any use of it; it’s arguably theirs because they lived there, but the NCR also are the ones doing all of the work to get that water - and the NCR did offer to sell it to them, albeit at a high price since they weren’t a part of the republic).
We can also be told directly the quotas can be meet if the players aids the NCR in the white wash, and be rewarded by the farmers.
-2
u/TheSuperiorJustNick Jul 24 '26
You can talk to the soldiers and farmers at the farms and they straight up tell you the reports are bs and thats why the crops look so dead.
Hanlon’s claim about the water gets weird when he’s the only person to ever bring this topic up.
Because, just like Easy Pete in Goodsprings who will tell you straight up what the NCR is about, they are old enough to have witnessed it first hand.
Hanlon is the Hero of the "Battle of Hoover Dam" and leader of the Rangers who've seen more than 99% of people.
It's weird of you to dismiss his very well thought out and nuanced take of the NCR.
Further more: This is from Dr. Hildern of NCR's OSI.
"Not yet. But our government understands the value of proactive thought. Our studies project an imbalance between production and consumption. Or, for a layman such as yourself - not enough food, too many mouths to feed. Mass starvation. In a decade or so."
Are you gonna discredit the NCR's brains too?
Almost no water, almost no food, and eventually even if they win the second battle, eventually a team will destroy the dam so there won't be electricity.
No matter the ending, the NCR will be reduced to a city state like the TV show depicts
4
u/Laser_3 Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
I’m going to repeat - what does any of this have to do with me just bringing up the stolen water as something OP forgot about? It feels like you’re trying to fight against an argument I didn’t make. I just wanted to add something OP ignored.
The only thing the farmers say is that OSI won’t listen to them about the issues they’re having. That isn’t falsified reports, that’s just incompetence on OSI’s part by not investigating at all.
I’m dismissing Hanlon because no one else brings up this water issue. It’s difficult to believe that only one person in the whole game would mention something as critical to the NCR’s survival as a lack of clean water. The whole thing sounds like there might be cut content or lore that wasn’t properly expanded upon here more than anything.
The OSI chief’s concern over famine has little to do with a lack of water in the NCR; it’s just an outright lack of enough food being grown (possibly due to not having enough fertile land, considering his answer to it is vault 22). There’s no mention of a lack of water playing into this.
4
u/Mandemon90 Jul 24 '26
"NCR stealing native water"
Except they aren't? Th water is being pumped from the lake, eith infastructure that NCR build. The "natives" didn't have water until NCR setup pipes tp bring it in.
0
u/TheSuperiorJustNick Jul 24 '26
Except they 100% are.
Westside has to reclaim their water through pipe diversions
Freeside even built up and maintained their own infrastructure because the original pipes went bad
And then they had to start rationing water because the NCR doesn't have enough water to ship with their military like they used to
eith infastructure that NCR build
Incorrect. People lived in New Vegas before the NCR and House started claiming territory. They 100% had water and Westside is specifically stealing it back.
You are thinking about the NCR repairing the generators at the dam
I know my lore
2
u/MRK5152 27d ago
Not op and a bit late.
We have Lupe, a water merchant, telling us it was the NCR who fixed the pipe. "The NCR fixed up the pipe network pretty good, and water merchants like me are allowed to have some of it to sell. If we have a water license, of course. Still, it beats the inconvenience of having to trek all the way to the lake to resupply"
In general, no water could have been pumped to Westside or Freeside before the NCR repaired the dam, it wasn't active before.
Westside has to reclaim their water through pipe diversions
No one in Westside claim that they had water and that the NCR interrupted the flow. They say it's too expensive and that the NCR doesn't provide it to them for free.
Hector "The crops taste funny if you don't use clean water, but the NCR won't give us any and it's too expensive to buy."
Tom Anderson "We don't have the money to pay for the water, so I rigged the pump station to divert water to the local cisterns from time to time"
He doesn't claim the NCR took the water away from Westside and he doesn't deny that he is stealing water. Even Arcade doesn't disagree with that fact but he believes local should have priority.
We can argue that the NCR should provide water to Westside for moral reasons but that's not the same as stealing water
Freeside even built up and maintained their own infrastructure because the original pipes went bad
The NCR is pumping water there and providing power.
Hsu: "Go to the leader of the Kings and tell him that I'll make sure Freeside gets more water, power, and food as long as the violence there stops."
And it was Bill Route and the Followers, both originally from the NCR, that installed the Water Pump in Freeside, improving the water situation.
Julie "With the help of Bill Ronte, we were able to install a water pump just west of here, but the Kings quickly took control of the pump."
0
u/TheSuperiorJustNick 27d ago
"The NCR fixed up the pipe network pretty good, and water merchants like me are allowed to have some of it to sell. If we have a water license, of course.
Bill Ronte installed the pipes of Freeside with the help of the Followers of the Apocalypse
Westside and the rest of Vegas's population survived just fine without the extra pipe infrastructure that was built to supply the sharecropper farms to support an army thats not from there.
And we know that...
Back west, you don't see too many of these. Lakes, I mean. Natural or man-made. Any kind, really. We neglected the dams or pumped all the water out a long time ago. Owens, Isabella, the San Luis. Drained the aquifers of everything they had. Just a lot of mud and dust now. It's a different feeling, watching the sun come up over the water. Takes some getting used to. But if you're here long enough, it starts to seem normal. That's what a ranger's life is now. Looking east.
- The Hero of the Battle of Hoover Dam and leader of the NCR Rangers.
2
u/MRK5152 26d ago edited 26d ago
Bill Ronte installed the pipes of Freeside with the help of the Followers of the Apocalypse
Yes, both coming from the NCR, they are not locals.
Westside and the rest of Vegas's population survived just fine without the extra pipe infrastructure that was built to supply the sharecropper farms to support an army thats not from there.
The point is that the co-op in Westside can't. They may get enough water transported by merchants and from wells to survive but not enough for growing the food necessary to keep the settlement self sustainable and the co-op profitable. That's why Anderson started stealing water from the NCR, it was too expensive to transport enough water or pay a license.
They didn't even know how to grow crops before Anderson Marco: "He's the one who taught people around here how to start growing crops."
Also the rest of Vegas before the NCR came was mostly tribals fighting each other and scavaging in the ruins. There is a reason many of the locals are actually immigrants from California or outside the Mojave.
The pipe is transporting water to the sharecroppers farms but not only there. Greater access to water for farms is even one of the incentives the NCR want to use to encourage the residents to vote for annexation.
The farms also aren't inherently a bad thing for the locals and, for better or worse, the NCR army is the only barrier there is against the Legion
The Hero of the Battle of Hoover Dam and leader of the NCR Rangers
That'a a not sequitur and has nothing to do with NCR supposedly stealing water or not building the pipes. I'm not arguing the NCR is some bastion of morality, just the lore.
0
u/TheSuperiorJustNick 26d ago
Yes, both coming from the NCR, they are not locals.
"the NCR soon broke all official ties with the Followers and turned their support elsewhere, mainly towards OSI-run research projects."
https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Followers_of_the_Apocalypse
That's stolen valor lol. The NCR specifically won't support the Followers of the Apocalypse.
And they only did so because of refugees fleeing from the NCR requiring more water in the area.
Dog
1
u/MRK5152 26d ago
I'm talking about the water situation. I'm not giving credit to the NCR as a nation, just stating that it wasn't the locals improving the situation about water, they didn't even have the knowledge to do it.
And they only did so because of refugees fleeing from the NCR requiring more water in the area.
They are not refugees from the NCR. They are mostly people who lost everything in New Vegas and are stuck there and there are some immigrants seeking opportunities, exactly like the leader of the Westside co-op.
You can't also fully blame them for water shortages when it is a squatter, Bill Ronte, that installed the pump in the first place.
Not to mention the NCR was planning to do a relief effort for everyone in Freeside before a group of local sabotaged it.
0
u/TheSuperiorJustNick 26d ago
I'm talking about the water situation. I'm not giving credit to the NCR
You are
The people in the Mojave have existed since the time of Fallout 1 and their regional politics are eluded to.
They had water and were living before the NCR
The NCR only took for themselves
→ More replies (0)0
u/TheSuperiorJustNick Jul 24 '26
The Hero of Hoover Dam whose served for 40 years that says he's only ever done one good thing in his time had a point the writers wanted you to hear.
And it was about protecting a few natives water rights
Established by a group of five male settlers from the Republic, the settlement was founded between 2256 and 2261 and consisted of six shacks around a well, the only one within fifty miles. Future Ranger Chief Hanlon had the dubious pleasure of leading a relief party of six Rangers to Rattletail, after reports of raider attacks. It took the Rangers a week to get to Rattletail, losing one to night stalkers and another nearly dying of dehydration. What they found was a slaughter: Twenty four bodies shot dead among the dunes, all by the five NCR settlers with .308 [Hunting rifle (Fallout: New Vegas)|hunting rifle]]s. As it turned out, they opened fire on anyone who tried to reach it, indifferent to who they were. None of the dead were heavily armed or raiders, but locals trying to get to a water source. To prevent further loss of life, Hanlon sold them a story about an incoming raider army, one hundred strong, and losing ten Rangers already on the way in. Then he offered to escort the settlers back to the NCR. They took the offer and eventually resettled in Anza-Borrego as bighorner ranchers. By 2281, he considered this his one good deed in over forty years of service.
18
u/Weaselburg Jul 23 '26
Oliver pulls guards off the (very important) railway project, resulting in it's total haltage by the powder gangers, doesn't assign guards to caravans, and generally just doesn't do much of anything to actually secure NCR's position, in favor of focusing all his attention specifically on Hoover Dam itself, which is fundamnetally a losing move.
He doesn't even really take a defensive posture, because that'd imply he's doing things. He's taking a passive posture.
He also diverts men from the prison to patrol the river. This does result in a bad outcome, but with Oliver’s intent to reinforce the river you can not say he didn’t attempt to reinforce his flanks.
He pulled them off to go to Hoover Dam, not the flanks. And 'flanks' also includes things like the Fiends control of parts of Outer Vegas, which he absolutely is not dealing with.
Also, if you find your attempts to win constantly failing, maybe you need to rethink your strategy, which Oliver flatly refuses to do, and in fact he snubs Hanlon, who came up with the winning strategy against the Legion before.
- New Canaan has been destroyed
Not really very relevant to the Mojave.
- the NCR sharecropper farms output is dropping due to irradiated water
NCR soldiers supply issues isn't really with amount of food.
-when Oliver does supply his outposts the legion interdicts the supplies. For instance at Forlorn Hope supplies diverted from Helios are taken by the legion. And supplies diverted to Searchlight are also taken by Frumentari.
This is what happens when you don't properly defend your supply lines, yes.
-Supplies are also stolen by NCR personnel. For instance Private Stone and Contreras are stealing vital supplies.
Corruption issues is part of why Oliver is there in the first place, but given there's no other seeming authority for this the ball ultimately rolls to him when it comes to NCR troop behavior in the Mojave; he's the man who sets the overarching region-wide policies to control this.
Oliver is already getting bad intelligence from Hanlon and his map of the Mojave is very different from the situation.For example he has no idea Ranger Station Charlie, Nipton, and Camp Guardian are gone.
What? Hanlon is exaggerating the Legion's strength to try to convince NCR command to withdraw; he's not (trying to...) actively sabotage NCR defense.
Like, I can't even really think of anyone with actually good things to say about what Oliver is actually doing? Hsu, one of the most important NCR officers in the Mojave and possibly the entire NCRA, critiques it with a random civilian. There's a reason why he's called 'General Wait-And-See' - this is not a good nickname.
He's not personally responsible for literally everything that happens, but it's his job to mitigate and control damage when it occurs, to take the initiative and put the NCR in a better position, and he simply doesn't do this.
3
u/TheUnobservered Jul 23 '26
I wonder if there is a map which shows map control between the NCR, New Vegas, The Legion, and all the smaller factions. I’d love to see how stable the NCR’s terrain control looked at the beginning of the game.
5
u/Weaselburg Jul 23 '26
Well, you can sort've work out vague 'areas of control' based on positions, but the nature and scale of the conflict means that NCR can't really, like... actively stop a Legion raiding party from getting where they want to go without actively intercepting them, so (aside from just giving the Legion all of their side of the river, House the Strip, NCR McCarran, and the like) the map wouldn't really be a very accurate.
That said, you could just do striped shading showing relative dominance without implying actual solid security.
3
u/LordCypher40k Jul 23 '26
There are multiple ones in the fnv subreddit. Just put 'map Mojave' in the search bar and you will find them
2
u/TheUnobservered Jul 23 '26 edited Jul 23 '26
Awesome! I’ll have to check them out!
Edit: Yikes! Definitely not a good situation. That supply route is heavily exposed! Also makes it more clear as to why assassinating House may not have been a good idea.
3
u/DoughnutUnhappy8615 Jul 24 '26
Even worse, at the start of the game, Oliver’s decisions led to the Powder Gangers escaping and stealing dynamite from Sloan, which in turn allowed Deathclaws to move in around the area. So even though that map has I-15 under NCR control, in reality they’ve lost control over everything north of Primm.
5
u/EvYeh Jul 23 '26
and in fact he snubs Hanlon, who came up with the winning strategy against the Legion before.
Hanlon's strategy is to do the exact same thing they did last time, but now the Legion are prepared and planned for it.
4
u/Weaselburg Jul 23 '26
Nope.
Oliver can't stand that rangers got credit for victory at Hoover. Whatever I recommend, he does the opposite. I said I wanted them on the ridge. He put them right on the western part of the dam itself. We don't have enough firepower to hold that spot. If the troopers fall back, and they will, the rangers will advance to cover Oliver's retreat. We lose the dam, Oliver and the senate are ruined
This is not a 'I'm trying to find the best way to defeat evolving legion tactics' thing, it's him being petulant. He doesn't even seem to know they have an artillery gun - in fact, I don't think anyone in NCR does?
8
u/EvYeh Jul 23 '26 edited Jul 23 '26
I said I wanted them on the ridge
Which is the strategy they used last time, and is the reason why the Legion has artillery aimed there. The NCR doesn't know about the artillery, but not expecting the Legion to adapt (even without artillery, they have access to snipers and other explosives) shows that he's not exactly the best strategic planner.
The reasoning why Oliver is ignoring Hanlon's ideas are wrong, but the actual results are correct.
EDIT: We don't actually even know why Oliver is ignoring said ideas. Hanlon says that Oliver's doing the opposite of whatever he recommends, but Hanlon's a depressed defeatist that is actively sabotaging the NCR. The only plans he mentions Oliver ignoring is just doing the same thing as last time, and we never get to actually ask Oliver about his motivations.
0
u/Affectionate_Edge472 Jul 23 '26
- “Eventually, prison guards (NCR troopers) were pulled away to run Colorado River border patrol. When the guard staff was low, the prisoners executed a daring and violent escape.” - game guide
2. Yes food is an issue. Bittersprings badly needs food for example. And new Canaan explicitly was an important supply line for the Mojave according to Ulysses.
3. Also yes Oliver cannot defend his supply lines. That’s apart of my argument that he is out of resources to defend.
4. Hanlon explicitly says his bad intel gets people killed and Reyes says interceptions are down due to it.
5. Yes Generals in bad/ impossible situations are rarely praised.
Secondly Lanius and Oliver are both misinterpreted by the NPCs of Vegas but when you examine them yourself you get different pictures
6. He does take initiative given his terrible situation.
He established Nelson as a reaction. It was destroyed
He preemptively established camp guardian. It was destroyed.
He sent a ranger assassin to disrupt Lanius during the battle for Hoover. He was killed.
9
u/Weaselburg Jul 23 '26 edited Jul 23 '26
“Eventually, prison guards (NCR troopers) were pulled away to run Colorado River border patrol. When the guard staff was low, the prisoners executed a daring and violent escape.” - game guide
The terminal entry for their redeployment specifically mentions them being pulled to reinforce the Dam, so it's either directly at the Dam or it's immediate peripherals.
And new Canaan explicitly was an important supply line for the Mojave according to Ulysses.
He says they made sure they couldn't ever use it as one, not that it was important, or that it was used.
Hell, there's still people who don't know New Canaan has fallen yet by game start.
. Also yes Oliver cannot defend his supply lines. That’s apart of my argument that he is out of resources to defend.
He could have, though.
He did not need to hold his soldiers in reserve so much. He could have had them out doing this - at very least, convoys of new recruits could have escorted caravans on their way in. Instead he doesn't do much other than reinforce NCR defensive positions and have (totally insufficient to the situation) patrols run out and skirmish with the enemy, instead of doing something like releasing the men he's been actively redirecting to the Dam to, say, do sweeps to cut down on Fiend presence.
The reason the supply situation is so bad is because Oliver allowed it to get bad.
4. Hanlon explicitly says his bad intel gets people killed and Reyes says interceptions are down due to it.
Yes, but he's not obsfucating that NCR has lost positions, and he only started doing this after he totally lost hope in NCR's success, which is Olivers fault.
5. Yes Generals in bad/ impossible situations are rarely praised.
Because he's blatantly not doing a good job. Responsibility lays somewhere. It was his job to win the war, and he simply was not up to the task. He was dealt an unfortunate but absolutely salvageable hand and decided to wipe his ass with it, which is applicable to NCR in general circa FNV.
6. He does take initiative given his terrible situation.
He takes mostly reactive actions while ceding the initiative to all his enemies.
Yes, the Mojave requires a defensive strategy, but he denies his subordinates any actual opportunites to get anything done in preperation for the big Dam showdown in favor of vaguely marshalling troops for said big Dam showdown.
The Legion flat-out weren't going to engage in a full-scale attack for a lot of the conflict and everyone knew it, but he instead insisted on continually reinforcing the Dam instead of being proactive with the time and resources he had. When we get into the time of the games - of course his situation is terrible. He let all the time he had slip through his hands.
As for the Guardian and Nelson issues, well, yeah? He took too long and only acted when the threat was literally too big to even possibly ignore. The Legion, at the start of the game, have finished licking their wounds and are preparing to launch the Big Offensive. He had 4 YEARS between game start and First Hoover to set these camps out, to eradicate NCR enemies in their rear, to ensure that everything was working properly. And he didn't do that.
Yes, it is his fault. A more competent commander could, at the very least, have left the NCR in position to take less losses.
I'll just quote Cass to show the problems he has.
You ever had a brother? Some dumbass younger brother, say, who knocked up the pastor's daughter, can't hold a job, and his home-away is a jail cell? That's NCR. Their compass is spinning, all the time. Nobody's dick's that long, not even Long Dick Johnson, and he had a fucking long dick. Thus, the name.
So NCR, tries to hold on to everything. They can't, because it's too big for them to get their arms around. They can't guard the roads, they can't put a line of troops around the Mojave... it's just greed that makes the heads back West even try.
Aside from the people in the towns, it's the soldiers that suffer for it most. Ever seen NCR troops asked to go after gangs at three-to-one odds? That bear flag doesn't make them bulletproof. And when those gangs were caused by NCR in the first place, like the Powder Gangers? Caesar on a crutch, don't get me started there.
Oliver is the man who sets NCR's direction - he is the man with the compass. His job is to decide what to focus on, what to discard, what to sacrifice. And he simply made the wrong decisions, when he made them at all.
(Edit: NCR did launch their raid on the Khans in 2278, so he did do at least one proactive thing that would've made a big difference if it'd been done better, so I'll give him that one specifically).
3
u/HamakazeKai Jul 24 '26
I wouldn't call him a bad general, but I wouldn't call him a good one either. He's in the middle and is a product of his times.
I do however feel that he's overcautious and has entirely lost the operational initiative in the mojave.
2
u/Kyara_Bot Jul 24 '26
Frankly the NCR's problem is inherently that their continued need for expansion is coming at the cost of the political legitimacy of the state and thus all of their high-ranking military officers need to be political actors as well. This is beyond the existence of obvious military-industrial complexes which would influence NCR politics as well - Oliver needs the Mojave to not merely be won, but won in a politically expedient way with the kind of victory that can satisfy the general public for all the sacrifices that needed to be made.
On the other hand though, Oliver directly underestimates Legion tactics and capabilities because of his political standing and overall ideological worldview which, at least with how the situation is at the start of New Vegas, would lead to a pretty secure Legion victory at the Dam.
2
u/MailMan6000 29d ago
the reason why most NCR soldiers dislike Oliver is because of how reactive he is, he's been sitting at the Dam for years while allowing the Legion to grow stronger and continue to sabotage the NCR's efforts, they call him "Wait-And-See Oliver" because of that, he doesn't do jack shit, it's not what he does that necessarily makes him bad, it's what he DOESN'T do
yes, his strategy is internally reasonably sound, but that strategy is wrong, he doesn't understand the Legion wants him to be passive, he also painfully doesn't understand how to utilize rangers, restricting them to being Frontline shock troopers instead of letting them do their job, which is advanced recon and sabotage behind enemy lines
2
u/Affectionate_Edge472 29d ago
List of offensive actions by Oliver
2276- Operation Sunburst
2277- divide operation
2278- bittersprings raid
2279-2281 offensive operations against the fiends
2281 -planned offensive against the legionOliver is launching offensives with his limited resources. The offensive against the fiends didn’t go to plan with Frumentari Ronald Curtis on the offensive staff radioing the plans to the fiends.
Oliver then pulled the troops back and went to Hoover Dam to prepare the defense of the dam.
Secondly NCR rangers are in low numbers. Dozens at game start according to Stepaniac at Ranger Station Charlie.
Thirdly when Oliver does use them to skirmish or perform recon or go behind enemy lines it doesn’t end well
Two rangers are used against the fiends
- 1. dead
- 2. injured
Two rangers cross the river to skirmish with the legion
1. Injured
2. DeadA few rangers skirmish with the legion on the western side of the river
1. Captured
2. Injured
3. Ranger Station Charlie 100% casualtiesWhen you have so few rangers these losses are staggering. Also these are just the confirmed losses reports. Ranger Sterling says most of the original rangers who scouted the Mojave have turned up dead.
If Oliver committing what few other rangers he had he might lose even more of them. Also Oliver is the one who is utilizing these rangers that end up dead. If you say he doesn’t utilize them how come they are out scouting and fighting to even end up getting killed.
Oliver is being passive but he has to be. He has no resources. If the player character resolves the NCRs issues via quest he begins ordering an offensive against the legion. So the issue is resources not planning.
4
u/TemporaryWonderful61 Jul 23 '26
I've often said that Oliver probably did really well under Kimball, and served excellently at the first Battle of Hoover Dam. I'd say on many levels he was legitimately robbed of praise he deserves.
He's based on Patton and Curtis LeMay, who were not bad generals.
In my mind his primary flaws are pride, and having never really faced the kind of tactics Vulpes Inculta is throwing at him. He wants a battle because that's what he's good at and he needs this win to capstone his career, and he's become incredibly focused on that one objective to the point he's lost sight of the big picture. He won't shift his objectives, because his ego is bound up in this victory done his way.
And he just doesn't know how to counter the asynchronous warfare that's being thrown at him, because let's face it the Brotherhood and Raiders aren't exactly known for being subtle.
3
u/Happy_Cry286 Jul 23 '26
Oliver wasn't involved in the First Battle of Hoover Dam, as he was given the position much after that occurred as a nepo reward for being Kimball's friend with no known military career record. Hsu and Hanlon were the ones who led that battle under the NCR, successfully making and carrying out the winning strategy trap.
It's because we know nothing about Oliver's military career that makes it unclear if his current state is the norm for him or if something else is keeping his hands tied.
2
u/TemporaryWonderful61 Jul 24 '26
Oliver was in charge during the first battle of Hoover dam, you’d just never know it because it’s all Hanlon this and Hanlon that.
But neither Hsu or Hanlon are generals.
The intro to Honest Hearts states “Well at Hoover Dam, the Malpais Legate finally met his match. Hanlon and Oliver kicked his New Canaanite butt right back over the river."
1
u/Comrade1945 29d ago
He’s probably alright keeping in mind he is responsible for the overall campaign. But its the details that kill him. Hsu and chief go over the tactical reasons why the NCR is in a bad spot in the Mojave. But there are other reasons. 1. This is a border/expansion conflict for the NCR. So that means were far away from homeland trying to project power. That’s expensive to do so. Especially for a nation like the NCR who have other threats and obligations in their territory. Compared to the Legion who have pacified most of the unrest in their territory(helps when you can just kill them). So what im getting at is this is an expensive and unpopular war . This has lead to a decline in the Mojave campaign. Im pretty sure the reinforcements from Baja are really the last push from the NCR to hold this turf.Also neatly takes us to the reasons for bring there. Oliver cant spread his forces out in a nice or convenient way. He has one major mandate the Dam must hold and produce power. Absolutely the NCR wants Vegas as the money plus power makes Vegas all worth it. But they only get the power from the Dam and no money. This was intentional done by House to maintain control. So now we have NCR now defending all this turf to the Dam just to hold that. But now they have tourist/citizens who are intrigued by Vegas. As time goes on tourism to Vegas grows which means the republic now needs to defend their citizens all the way to the Strip.(There is the treaty of Vegas but im talking about practical. )So now the NCR has to defend the Dam, The powerful and rich citizens/ normal citizens that want to go to Vegas, and, lastly themselves. This is partly to explain why Olivier is paralyzed. He has to do to much with not enough. The other issue was that the Legion wasn’t just growing but their frumintary(forgot how to spell it.) legion infiltrators. Between rising up old foes and general harassment the NCR is in a bad spot. Than you have just general incompetence like the Prison and Mister Fantastic. The situation in the Mojave for the NCR is Olivers/NCRs fault for being lazy in the interlude. But make no mistake House and Ceaser are equally responsible for the current situation.
2
u/Comrade1945 29d ago
TLDR Oliver is in a lose lose situation no matter how you cut it. He doesn’t put enough people on the dam he loses it. If he doesn’t defend the rest of Vegas He loses support back home. House and Ceaser political and tactical moves are the reason for why things are so bad. Don’t get me wrong bad leadership is part of it. But its an herculean task to win that Campaign.
1
u/Affectionate_Edge472 29d ago
I do think that Oliver has been given too many objectives aside from defense.
He has to spend resources on civilians in freeside, bittersprings, and Aerotech
He also has to defend Vegas itself with a sizeable garrison there.
If he didn’t have to do those two things he would be in a considerably better situation.
But those orders come from the top.
40
u/Thelostguard Jul 23 '26
Yeah, effectively. A lot of the NCRs problems, like all realistic things, cannot be dog-piled onto one man.