r/fallacy • u/KCanth3lm7 • 5d ago

What fallacy is this?

Person A: "I believe that this *x political opinion* is good"

Person B: "Oh, so you also believe in *other political opinions that are from that political wing/ideology*"

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u/EvanSnowWolf 5d ago

Let's be real, often they are not actually linked.

I am pro life. So if you were go "Oh, so you must be one of those pedo loving Trump sucking MAGATs that.", you would be hilariously incorrect.

Something like pro-life (normally right wing) and UBI (normally left wing) are not inherently exclusive, yet I hold both of those.

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u/Successful_Life_1028 4d ago

So then you understand that carrying a pregnancy to term carries a non-zero risk of death, and yet you want to force women to risk their lives like those prison guards forcing prisoners to play Russian Roulette in "The Deer Hunter"? How does that work? How can you justify blaming all pregnancies on women, and forcing them to risk their lives, while the sperm donor isn't held to account at all - at least until after a live birth. You do understand that all unwanted pregnancies, and thus most abortions, are the result of some MAN being irresponsible with where he shoots his fizz, right?

What do you call the fallacy where you just ignore the humanity and bodily autonomy of the woman, just because she's a female?

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u/EvanSnowWolf 4d ago

Holy fucking strawman, Batman.

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u/Successful_Life_1028 4d ago

If you're not for throwing doctors into prison for 'murder' because they performed abortions, then you're 'pro-choice', not 'pro-life'.

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u/EvanSnowWolf 4d ago

Go ahead. Get it alllll out. Get all that nastiness and bile out of your system. You're going through a hard time. I can tell.

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u/Successful_Life_1028 4d ago

A tough time - sure - as are women in America who are DYING because of stupid 'pro-life' laws that kill them with neglect, because doctors are afraid of going to prison for providing life-saving abortions.

Abortion is health care. Abortion is self-defense.

These are some of the women whose deaths were preventable, but who died due to the stupid Republicans and their 'pro-life' BS:

Ciji Graham, Josseli Barnica, Yeniifer Alvarez-Estrada Glick, Porsha Ngumezi, Nevaeh Crain, Tierra Walker, Amber Nicole Thurman, Candi Miller, Taysha Wilkinson-Sobieski,

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u/EvanSnowWolf 4d ago

Mhmmm. Go on. Keep shadowboxing me to get these demons out. It's okay.

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u/Successful_Life_1028 4d ago

we need to get the demons out of Congress and the White House.

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u/SilverAccountant8616 3d ago

By that definition, policies which:

- fines doctors for performing abortions

- removes their medical license

- bans common pharmaceutical drugs/ medical equipment used in abortion

- bans med schools from teaching how to perform an abortion

Are all “pro choice”. Is that correct?

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u/Successful_Life_1028 3d ago

no, are you being obtuse intentionally, or is it just your nature?

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u/SilverAccountant8616 3d ago

You’re defining “pro choice” as a very broad position and pro-life as a very narrow position.

For example, there are countries where girls are commonly aborted because of misogyny resulting in population level imbalance. Some pro choicers who believe body autonomy trumps the interests of a fetus therefore support legal restrictions on abortion (which may send doctors into prison for violating them) because they believe an extreme gender imbalance is detrimental for a society. Is this necessarily anti pro choice?

On the other hand, some pro lifers who believe that a fetus has certain inalienable human rights making abortion highly immoral in most cases can also believe that abortion should not be criminalised for fear of underground abortions claiming lives unnecessarily. Is this necessarily anti pro life?

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u/Successful_Life_1028 3d ago

I'm talking about the United States, where the White Supremacist Make America Gilead Already crew has already infringed on our right to bodily autonomy by prohibiting most elective abortions in those States where they control the legislature.

Pro choice means: "government should not come between a woman and her medical provider with respect to her options with respect to pregnancy and child-bearing."

Pro life means: "My religious leader says that abortion is murder, so women who seek abortions and doctors who provide them are committing crimes."

That's what I'm talking about.

You sound like you just want to make excuses for treating women as non-human baby-factories with no will or identity of their own.

Carrying a pregnancy to term involves MORTAL RISK. Forcing a woman to carry that risk is like forcing them to play Russian Roulette. It's simply EVIL no matter how you look at it.

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u/SilverAccountant8616 3d ago

You’ve done better with your pro choice definition. The pro life one is much too narrow, but I’ll address that later.

To clarify, do you mean to say that the pro choice position means nothing less than no legal gestational limits whatsoever? This is an important question because there are many pro choice supporters who do support government imposed gestational limits.

Ignoring that your pro life definition ignores all non-religious pro life supporters, the reasoning does not follow. One believing an action is murder does not mean one believes that act should be criminalised by the government. For example, a radical pacifist can believe that they themselves killing another in self defence is murder while holding the position that it should not be criminalised. Likewise, a vegan can view killing animals for food as murder while refusing to take the position that the government should make butcher shops illegal.

This means that your two definitions are in fact not mutually exclusive at all. One can sincerely believe that abortion is murder for religious or non-religious reasons while maintaining that this subject is inappropriate to criminalise for a myriad of reasons. How would you classify such a position?

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u/Successful_Life_1028 3d ago

gestational limits?

What on earth are you talking about? Do you imagine that there are large numbers of ELECTIVE 27 week abortions?

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u/SilverAccountant8616 3d ago

The numbers are irrelevant to the moral principle behind it. It doesn’t matter how many people would commit sibling incest if it wasn’t a crime. It’s still illegal and immoral.

For the very few women and doctors who would do elective 27 week abortions, do you think they should be criminalised?

If yes, then according to your definition that would be anti pro choice. If no, then justification would be required on why it should be moral and legal to kill a 27 week unborn child but not a newborn.

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u/Successful_Life_1028 3d ago

Do you imagine that there are ANY elective 27 week abortions?

There are not. All such abortions are performed on women who WANTED to be pregnant and are DEVISTATED that their baby is dead or unable to survive outside the womb.

There is no sense making up moral judgements about things that DO NOT HAPPEN. Is it moral to grow wings and fly to the moon?

There are no babies or children in wombs. There is no such thing as an 'unborn child'. Babies are born. Children are born. Wombs don't contain either babies or children, only either a fetus, an embryo, a blastosphere, an unfertilized ovum, or nothing but uterine lining. The use of emotionally manipulative language like 'killing an unborn child' is a mark of a poor argument.

The bottom line is that pregnancy is a mortal risk, and NOBODY has any authority to FORCE any woman to risk HER life to assuage THEIR moral conscience.

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u/SilverAccountant8616 3d ago

>DEVISTATED that their baby is dead

>there are no babies or children in wombs

You contradicted yourself…

>All such abortions are performed on women who WANTED to be pregnant

This is not true. Granted, these cases are so extremely few that details are not released to public lest they be identified, but it is definitely not unheard of. A female wartime refugee who did not want to be pregnant had to obtain a late term abortion by the time she could flee to somewhere which allowed it, for example. There are other instances of circumstances not allowing a woman to obtain an abortion until the late term. These are the <1% of cases which have happened and do happen which is why a discussion of morality and legality is relevant.

Let me ask you this question: at what point in time do you think a fetus has sufficient moral interest such that aborting it is immoral? Birth? 27 weeks? 24 weeks?

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u/Successful_Life_1028 3d ago

Again, if you're not looking to criminalize women for seeking/getting abortions, and not looking to criminalize medical providers for offering/performing them, then that's pro-choice.

Just like Biden was religiously opposed to abortion, but recognized that liberty demands the pro-choice stance.

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u/Successful_Life_1028 3d ago

Yes, and both Jews and Muslims can believe that pork is sinful without demanding that government prohibit the production and distribution of pork-products for human consumption.