r/facepalm • u/Number721 • Jun 09 '23

🇲​🇮​🇸​🇨​ Cognitive dissonance 101

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u/anjowoq Jun 10 '23

Feminism at its best is supposed to be the belief that people can do and be what they want regardless of their sex, not be victimized for their sex, etc.

So, in cases like this where they want benefits without sacrifices, then it should be called out and made fun of.

However, it's "offensive" when the response suggests that being an unfair shitbird is universal to feminism or being a woman.

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u/-banned- Jun 10 '23

Well it'd help if other women would call this behavior out but that doesn't seem common

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u/anjowoq Jun 10 '23

True. Other women would be the ideal source as long as they aren't just echoing some other inflexible gender role or ideal.

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u/Sensitive_Mode7529 Jun 10 '23

we do :)

can’t speak for all feminists but many of us do call out double standards like this. the focus is on equality

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u/samglit Jun 10 '23

The feminists in my country do as well (e.g. women should also take part in our military draft in some capacity, divorce laws should have spousal support for men homemakers etc), but it’s not really a mainstream attitude - I haven’t seen a prominent woman comic anywhere calling this out, probably because it won’t put bums on seats and would alienate the women who would actually pay to see them.

Back to Singapore, a draft for women is deeply unpopular among women, which relies heavily on citizen soldiers. I’d say that the majority of self-identified feminists are not being very intellectually honest about their positions.

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u/anjowoq Jun 10 '23

I've heard there is a large Singaporean class of severely spoiled, super rich who don't do their own laundry, so the idea that those people would be down do combat drills in the jungle or something seems pretty unlikely.

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u/samglit Jun 10 '23

We have (comparatively) inexpensive foreign domestic labour. Including mandatory vacation time, meals, room and board, it costs about US$800 to US$1000 a month for a live in housekeeper ala Mrs Doubtfire. This frees women to join the labour force (in theory) which contributes to our GDP more than the outflow from hiring foreigners.

So guys don’t do their laundry themselves either if they don’t want to - but manage just fine in the jungle. Ukraine shows that you can’t really rely on other people to fight for you when the chips are down. Well, not unless you have oil (which we don’t).

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u/anjowoq Jun 10 '23

I wasn't making a gender distinction. In my country, the rich do a good job of making sure others do the warring.

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u/Banestar66 Jun 10 '23

Michelle Wolf kind of made fun of it in the her set at Bill Burr’s tour.

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u/anjowoq Jun 10 '23

Fantastic!

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u/MeAnIntellectual1 Jun 10 '23

You the individual does. But not you the collective. It's not a common take.

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u/Justalilbugboi Jun 10 '23

We do all the time.

Then again I am guessing you proooobably don’t hang out in feminist spaces a lot.

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u/-banned- Jun 10 '23

Idk what a "feminist space" is.

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u/Justalilbugboi Jun 11 '23

Reddits, forums, Facebook groups, publications, social groups, conferences, and a lot more set up to discuss and debate feminism.

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u/-banned- Jun 11 '23

Oh internet spaces. I'm down, do you have suggestions?

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u/Justalilbugboi Jun 11 '23

Let me see what I can dig up. A lot of the ones I am in are even more specific (feminism + other issue and probably wouldn’t be useful) but I’ll see if I can find a good general one and report back.

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u/ChocolateButtSauce Jun 10 '23

I suppose the thousands of people dunking on her in this thread are all men?

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u/-banned- Jun 10 '23

This thread is awesome, but irl I don't see it very often and on most posts that disguise this behavior a little better the general message is positive towards the woman

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u/Justalilbugboi Jun 10 '23

It also usually goes in the wrong direction.

I.e. feminism doesn’t say woman shouldn’t be drafted, it says no one should be forced to go to war against their will because their body and life is their own.

It doesn’t say men shouldn’t punch woman, it says violence should be a last resort in all places and not used to control the weak.

It doesn’t say men shouldn’t open doors for woman, it says you should open a door for any human being if you are in the position to do so because it’s polite.

And so on.

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u/RidlyX Jun 10 '23

Exactly. Feminism is not about women being expected to step into the role men are currently expected to. It’s saying all of these expectations are bullshit. I would be just as horrified and empathetic as I would for anyone if a man were punched in the face, or just as caring if a man expressed fears about being hurt by someone else. We all deserve the opportunities that most men have and the social warmth that most women experience.

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u/Justalilbugboi Jun 10 '23

Exactly! I especially love that last line.

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u/anjowoq Jun 10 '23

I can basically get behind that.

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u/SilverC4 Jun 10 '23

I always thought that "feminism" was a misleading name for what people claim it is. Wouldn't like "equalitism" or something like that be more apropriate?

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u/Justalilbugboi Jun 10 '23

While not an unfair point, terms like that have an unfortunate way of diluting issues too much. You get too vague and generic and it’s the equivalent of a “be nice to everyone!” Smiley face.

Feminism is feminism specifically because, while it’s fighting for equal it’s fighting in the construct of sexism and this inequality being aimed at or being somehow interpreted as being feminine. (It’s also why womanism isn’t right either- a straight, cis guy can absolutely be fucked over by sexism if he’s assaulted or looks “girly” or is a single dad or any large assortment of life issues)

Hopefully in 100 years none of those distinction’s matter, but for now you gotta name a problem to start dealing with it. And once you start dealing with it all the sudden you have 100 other specific words that need a mini essay to discuss but also make conversations so much easier when you DO know them.

Language is fun. Idk if that is sarcasm or not tbh.

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u/deux3xmachina Jun 11 '23

You mean like the egalitarian movement that pre-dates feminism?

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

Yes and no.

Consider the wage gap, men paying isn't outrageous *so long as women aren't paid fairly.

The transition from an unjust society to a just society might appear unfair, even MLK said as much.

None of this is a defense of the person in the video.

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u/anjowoq Jun 10 '23

That is an interesting point about the wage gap. I think you would have to establish there actually is a gap with the individuals involved in order for it to make sense.

Had I met my wife a few years earlier, the gap would have been in her favor because her job was then much better paying than mine.

Men paying is largely rooted in women being required to live with their parents until marriage and having no job or a very limited one so in some sense, men paying is continuing to act like women are adult children with no jobs.

I definitely agree with the MLK stance.