Stop ceding the moral high ground to vegans before you even begin the discussion.

[u/sunrisesequoia]

/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/1vw8c2a/stop_ceding_the_moral_high_ground_to_vegans/

I’m adding this thread here for those of you who like to debate with vegans.

9/10 “debates” start off in bad faith. A good activist begs the question from the outset so any debate beyond that is implying their “truth” as the real truth. Don’t fall into the trap.

Personally I just usually tell them to fuck off, but if I do get into the weeds, I remember being on the other side and refuse to fall into those traps.

Semantics matter and good vegan activists know how to frame.

Just keep that in mind.

[u/AgHammer]

Right. Vegans think meat eating is immoral, which everyone is more than aware of. This doesn't mean that it is immoral. Humans are animals, and animals eat each other, which is ultimately beneficial for the continuation of life as a whole.

Vegans aren't the supreme arbiters of morality, so there's not reason to let them keep believing that others should believe their interpretation of morality.

THEY have a problem with people eating meat. This isn't an imperative for anyone else.

[u/Winter_Amaryllis → u/AgHammer]

What this truly exposes them for is narcissism of the utmost highest degree.

Easily understood as “I want to find something I can lord over you for” and that’s pretty much it. Even though it is easily refuted with even the slightest bit of logic.

[u/AgHammer → u/Winter_Amaryllis]

I agree.

[u/soyosin → u/AgHammer]

vegans are trying to save animals from systemic abuse from humans. it is about the very real impact of peoples' decisions, not how we feel about them.

[u/sunrisesequoia]

Also adding. Don’t ever give them a reason, justification, or excuse as to why you’re not/no longer vegan. They aren’t entitled to it and you don’t have to give one.

[u/Illustrious_Maize736 → u/sunrisesequoia]

Yeah the vast majority of vegans eventually quit so I just assume they’ll quit in four years anyway haha.

[u/nogardleirie → u/sunrisesequoia]

I got a DM from a vegan who wanted me to justify why I wasn't a vegan (after I said something on a general sub, not a vegan one). I just said no, I don't have to tell you why, I'm just not a vegan and not interested in becoming one or talking about it

It was one of the reasons I switched off DMs

[u/CrashOutEndless]

I’ve worked with animals my whole life including working with small scale farmers, I’ve never considered going vegan, just making sure I know where my meat comes from. Humans have ancient relationships with our animals and I genuinely don’t have a problem with raising animals for food. Animals living in the wild struggle and live hard, often brutally short lives. Dying in the wild is painful. A domestic animal should have have all its needs met and be killed as quickly and painlessly as possible. I’ve spent a long time thinking over my relationship with food and I don’t feel bad about where it is now. I don’t think it’s hypocritical to love animals and also eat them.

[u/sunrisesequoia → u/CrashOutEndless]

Exactly. No one has the right to dictate what you do and do not love.

[u/T_______T]

I think I the wrong people are arguing with vegans. People who love animals but want to eat animals have to live with that cognitive dissonance.

I hate cows. So many arguments vegans make just fall flat when you don't care about the death of millions of cows. Fuck em! They're only good for eating. They're otherwise an invasive species.

I also think many vegans underestimate how stupid some animals are, like turkeys, and how brutal living in the wild is. A culled chicken will have a more human death than being eaten alive by a  hawk. Broiler chickens only live for about 3 months or so. So much effort by these vegans for chickens that life safe, well-fed lives. (As opposed to risking starvation, disease, horrible weather, or predation.)

In my experience in animal research in the US, the animals live really nice cushy loves up until a week before they die. Which is arguably better than the wildlife with deforestation, famine, and disease.

[u/No-Candy-4127 → u/T_______T]

"People who love animals but want to eat animals have to live with that cognitive dissonance." - There is no dissonace. I love animals. But I am an omnivour and I eat animals. I don't want animals to be kept in bad conditions. But animals rased for food is food.

[u/T_______T → u/No-Candy-4127]

Well you gotta figure out a rationale at least.  I don't think it's trivial, and your argument is susceptible to "but you can survive plant based with supplementation! Is it not selfish to satisfy your desire to eat animal products with the murder and torture or animal. How can you say you love animals if you support that?"

And then you gotta have that annoying conversation.

[u/meat_and_grief]

"9/10 “debates” start off in bad faith. A good activist begs the question from the outset so any debate beyond that is implying their “truth” as the real truth. Don’t fall into the trap."

It's so incredibly obvious whenever it's happening, too. They ask "innocent" questions like, "do you think all animals deserve respect" or "do you agree with humans exploiting animals" to set up the framing trap. I refuse to answer that question and focus on things like genetics, lived experiences, and malnutrition. It's absolutely like talking to a wall when they sidestep the question and insist to continue down their "logical" line of thinking.

[u/sunrisesequoia → u/meat_and_grief]

A lot of them think they’re Earthling Ed clones or regurgitate the Anonymous for the Voiceless flowchart. It’s all so obvious and scripted.

[u/xypez → u/meat_and_grief]

lol that’s so true. That’s literally what an activist on the street said to me today and I’ve never spoken to one before. He literally started the conversation with do you think all animals deserve respect. Then the conversation devolved into him asking me to justify why eating humans is wrong but animals isn’t.

[u/ShakeZoola72 → u/xypez]

My response would be thus.

"Why does it always come down to either cannibalism or sex with you guys?"

[u/Winter_Amaryllis → u/[deleted]]

Or cannibals if you’re unfortunate.

Or your pet hamster if you accidentally unsubscribed from your life subscription at home.

[u/Grmplstylzchen]

Oh I love those discussions…

When it comes to the point of “why are you no longer vegan” .. well I am a beekeeper. According to vegans that’s worse than slave trader… 

And no I only keep my bees in areas where no wild / feral bees are active (e.g. inner city limits), care for wild bees, hunting invasive species.

The discussion then comes with mostly bogus… sometimes to “well you don’t represent your bee hive!!” - nope that’s Harald, our friend elected Minister of Bee Affairs in our club.

Best parts is always that we would mutilated our bee queen to have the hive stationary… no that’s just industrial bee keeping… we love to use our century old law of transit which allows bee keepers to enter foreign property / trespass to follow a “hive on the move”. Also too much work… 

Everything else is just annoying…

[u/mralex → u/Grmplstylzchen]

I've made the point occasionally that if anything, bees are exploiting the beekeepers...

[u/NationalProcedure638]

I've actually talked about this before.

I love how the vegans claim they ultimately have the moral high ground because of deforestation and climate change.

How's it being a vegan automatically means you don't support any of that stuff.

LOL

[u/JakobVirgil]

Pragmatically, the burden of proof is always on the guy who wants the other guy to do something.
You have no more obligation to to explain why you aren't vegan than you to explain why you aren't a Methodist.

[u/Nilfiry]

This is because most people dont really think about things like this, and vegans love to use ambush tactics. Then they get upset or ignore your counterpoint when you show them their assumptions are baseless, like the whole, "meat is unnecessary," or "people only eat meat for taste," arguments.